Do you think Oberyn actually poisoned Tywin?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

If anything, even if Oberyn survived the combat trial, he’d be the number one suspect in Tywin’s unexpected death. Considering all the ways he tried to antagonise Tywin, I mean.

Either way, we know that Tywin was as much of a target of Oberyn's vengeance as Gregor, so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Oberyn would get to him sooner or later. One way or another.

I'm not saying that he definitely poisoned Tywin, but I don't think it's an outlandish theory.

[James Arryn]

9 minutes ago, Adelstein said:

I don't think so, but I also don't think it matters. It'll never be proven one way or the other, everyone concerned is dead, and Tyrion still killed him even if Tywin was already sick.

There's a tendency to ascribe superhuman levels of foresight to certain shrewd characters who are active in the Game. While Oberyn was no doubt a clever guy and a great opportunist, I don't think he was a long-term strategist in the way that his brother was, and was more inclined to sow chaos on the basis that it would create opportunities. I think Oberyn genuinely expected to kill Gregor, and then have time to deal with Tywin afterwards. And that expectation was hardly foolish: he totally beasted Gregor during the actual fight. One might almost imagine he had trained specifically for such a fight.

Not arguing, just bouncing theories, I think Oberyn was erring on the side of getting it done rather than awaiting an order of events anymore. That’s not to say he’s an idiot….he must have at least gone to KL with the knowledge he might not come back, but he was a highly intelligent man. Also the kind of man to enjoy watching both your enemies die while neither of them knows it, yet. Eithe way, if he is presented with an opportunity for his priority reason for being there, I think he takes it right then, and his experience with poison is that it’s shadowy enough to leave doubt even when your motive is well known. 

[astarkchoice]

4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But again, Tywin was going to keep Gregor out of King's Landing. What do you do if you're Oberyn?

Was he?

Oberyn may have insisted on having ser gregor come to court to defend his name by combat (having rumours of dornish forces massing at the borders means tywin has a stong incentive to placate him  ). Meanwhile he posions tywin anyway as he wont believe his denials.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

12 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Was he?

"Oberyn knows that Gregor was the one who . . ."

"He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no crumb of proof. Ser Gregor is certainly not about to confess to him. I mean to keep him well away for so long as the Dornishmen are in King's Landing".

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

For all we know, Oberyn had a plan to deal with the backlash from Tywin’s death. He does have Cersei’s daughter in Dorne as a hostage

[astarkchoice]

10 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

"Oberyn knows that Gregor was the one who . . ."

"He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no crumb of proof. Ser Gregor is certainly not about to confess to him. I mean to keep him well away for so long as the Dornishmen are in King's Landing".

Thats  fine oberyns plan has the flexibility to accomodate that.

Hit tywin with a slow acting gut posion and if he gives in  into your political pressure you have your trial by combat...if he refuses then tywin dies then make sure all the royal court knows that notorious posioner oberyn    was meeting with tywin before he dies and.get a trial by combat. The lannisters will of course choose their heavy hitter 

[Aebram]

18 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

If Oberyn poisoned Tywin so that he’d die horribly, why bother making the Mountain confess? Revenge is revenge. If anything, even if Oberyn survived the combat trial, he’d be the number one suspect in Tywin’s unexpected death. Considering all the ways he tried to antagonise Tywin, I mean.

Oberyn was a passionate man. He probably came to King's Landing intending to kill the man who murdered his sister, the man who gave the order, and anyone else in the chain of command.

He was also rather impulsive, not one to weigh the consequences carefully before acting. That was what brought him down. He had all but killed the Mountain, but he tempted fate by demanding that Clegane publicly confess his crime.

So it seems likely that, if he had an opportunity to poison Tywin, he would have done it. If he thought at all about the consequences, he probably figured that, if he was tried for murder, he could demand a trial by combat, and probably win it.

However, I seem to recall reading in this forum that someone actually asked the Martin about this; and he replied that, no, Oberyn had not poisoned Tywin. Maybe someone else can confirm that? Maybe it was another of those (many) cases where George's actual words were somewhat vague and open to interpretation.

[The hairy bear]

A lot of time passed between Oberyn and Tywin's deaths (we know that the news arrive to Dorne with a difference of more than a fortnight).

It doesn't seem very plausible that Tywin had received a lethal poison before Oberyn's death, and that a few weeks later he was still around with only minor symptoms such as loose bowels. It's even more far-fetched to suggest that the actual poisoning had already took place several days earlier, before the beginning of Tyrion's trial.

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I don't think that he did, there must have been days-weeks at least between Tyrion's trial by combat and Tywin's death. 

And there's no hint of when and how Oberyn could have poisoned Tywin.

[Mithras]

No, but GRRM should retcon it into the series.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It doesn't seem very plausible that Tywin had received a lethal poison before Oberyn's death, and that a few weeks later he was still around with only minor symptoms such as loose bowels.

But Tywin had the opposite of loose bowels, he couldn’t get it out. Which is exactly the effect that Widows Blood is said to have.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

On 2/12/2023 at 3:30 AM, Craving Peaches said:

It could have been poison but it also could just have been that Tywin had bad bowels. It happens sometimes. Especially as you get older. And all that rich food from the Wedding wouldn't have helped, nor the stress of the King dying and then your son being accused of the murder by your daughter and then having to try him.

This is a slander against all the hot girls with IBS. It'd be nice to feel represented, but not via Tywin

You're probably right, but it would be humorous if Oberyn did feed him diarrhea poison, even if it wasn't meant to be fatal. He's such a poopyhead.

[EggBlue]

that's one of those theories that can never be proven because all involved parties are dead and the issue is not likely to be revisited since it's not consequential anymore. BUT I just like the idea that Oberyn had poisoned Tywin to shit to death so much! I guess it's one of those headcanons that doesn't affect anything but is fun  

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

No, it's too messy. What's the author to do with it, create a subplot about an event that almost happened but didn't?

I don't think dying at the Mountain's hand ever occurred to the Red Viper and he was confident that he'd get Tywin in time. Look at how he died, trying desperately to get Gregor to confess to murdering his sister and family. Wouldn't his plans for Tywin include publicly extracting a similar confession? Poisoning Tywin would have been a very last resort and Oberyn didn't see his end coming until it hit him in the face so he never was in a position where he would be considering last resorts.

[John Suburbs]

On 2/12/2023 at 3:49 AM, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

A favorite theory that I’ve read is that Oberyn had in fact poisoned one of Tywin’s meals before his death. When Pycelle was discussing the poisons from his collection, the book goes into more detail on one poison over all others. Stating it’s effects being bowel issues. And noticeably as Tyrions trial goes on, Tywin seems to not being feeling alright. Culminating in the fateful visit to the privy where Tyrion kills him. Shae had already seemed to have been waiting for awhile, and then Tyrion had time to briefly talk to, then strangle Shae, and Tywin was just on the privy. Indicating some kind of distress in his bowels. But Tyrion’s killing of Tywin covered it up.
 

 

It's hard to see how he could have. I doubt Tywin would have allowed Oberyn to prepare or serve any meal they shared (if they actually shared one). And the motivation doesn't fit. Oberyn doesn't just want to kill Tywin but to expose him as a murderer of children. That's why he kept after Gregor even after he went down: he needed his confession, not just his death.

If I had to guess, I'd say Shae was the poisoner, acting on behalf of her true master: Littlefinger.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Quote

Widow's blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man's bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons.

The "poisons" here refer to a person's urine and feces, so it's not a poison in the regular sense of the word. And there is nothing indicating that Widow's Blood can't have a slow burn effect.

[James Arryn]

21 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

"Oberyn knows that Gregor was the one who . . ."

"He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no crumb of proof. Ser Gregor is certainly not about to confess to him. I mean to keep him well away for so long as the Dornishmen are in King's Landing".

For the sake of argument, let’s suppose the ‘plan’…and I think there was a lot of room left in anything like a plan for Oberyn to improvise…was roughly the reverse order. He poisons Tywin. After a great deal of…illness?…Tywin dies horribly. Let’s say like with Yronwood, Oberyn is accused. Oberyn demands trial by combat. Now Loras is maybe in play, but my guess is the Lannisters reach for who the Lannisters always reach for with Jaime out, the Mountain. This order of Tywin’s will sound to Cersei like trying to protect Gregor, and she won’t care about that one iota any more, so here we go. 
 

Oberyn still probably wants to make him confess, but I doubt it’s quite as important with Tywin in the ground. Is this just my way of trying to have Oberyn back?

[chrisdaw]

Yes I do. I believe Doran has a master plan and that was part of it, and probably it will all come out through Arianne in a position of power explaining it to Cersei because she wants Cersei to know Dorne's responsible for her downfall (she'll probably also say Oberyn poisoned Joff, which might not be a lie in that she may believe he did), leading Cersei to think Arianne is the younger more beautiful queen taking from her everything she loved.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

22 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

No, it's too messy. What's the author to do with it, create a subplot about an event that almost happened but didn't?

It doesn’t have to be a subplot, it could just be a cool thing that attentive readers can pick up on, like the Frey pies or the Hound being on the Quiet Isle.

It would also change the meaning of Tyrion shooting Tywin, turning it into an unintentional mercy kill.

[astarkchoice]

14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It doesn’t have to be a subplot, it could just be a cool thing that attentive readers can pick up on, like the Frey pies or the Hound being on the Quiet Isle.

It would also change the meaning of Tyrion shooting Tywin, turning it into an unintentional mercy kill.

This 

It also fits with dorans concern for ordinary people esp kids, its a plan simple enough to execute that doesnt mean mass war and death for vengance to be served.

It fits  his desire for  vengence yet seemingl placid nature allowing him and the viper to come across as a good cop vs bad cop , the grass that hides the viper as we are told . If oberyn is seen as a maverick hot head then him 'going rouge' to posion tywin and then getting a trial vs the hound fits...but gives doran room for denial should it fail AND he can be seen to reach out for calm with what remains of the lannsiters if oberyn walks free (if not his  forces as we recall await massed and ready  in the passes to ambush any royal/lannister  force sent south!)

It also makes a sense that of all the martells the vengeful, aggressive , dangerous viper goes north  to take his brothers seat and not  sending someone less likely to start a war ,  doran well knew that the tryells were all over the city too making it an extra powderkeg  that the notmaly rational doran would send a known  firebrand into!!!