White Harbour’s shipping inconsistency

[Floki of the Ironborn]

I can understand that one random Stark king would order ships to be burned out of some sort of mad grief. But I find it really hard to believe that no other Stark until Eddard was smart enough to order House Manderly to build a new fleet. There is so much sense in the North having a sea presence, especially since their only city is right on the coast, not far from the most powerful of the Free Cities.

I also find it a bit strange how inconsistent the city’s shipping capabilities are. During the Dance of the Dragons, White Harbour has the ships and sailors to send Torrhen and Medrick Manderly south to Rhaenyra Targaryen’s cause. And yet it would appear that those ships and sailors have vanished by the time of ASOIAF because Wyman needs Davos Seaworth to bring Rickon back from Skagos. How can a city on the coast have produced zero sailors capable of going out onto open water? Besides “plot reasons”, I can’t understand why GRRM arranged things this way.

[Alester Florent]

I don't know that it's a lack of availability of ships or men that prevents Wyman from sending one to Skagos: it's all part of his plan to appear wholly loyal to the Boltons/Lannisters and accordingly to have all his ships and sailors accounted for where they're supposed to be. He is also presumably trying to retain all his own resources for the coming war. Davos's mission is a black op with complete deniability so it suits Wyman to have him do it instead of some of his own men.

I agree that the North's neglect of the sea is silly, although it doesn't seem to have been wholly consistent: there was a long war fought between the North and the Vale over the Sisters, after all, which presupposes the North had enough of a naval presence at that point (for a war supposedly lasting centuries) to contest them.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Yeah it never made much sense to me. It never had to be a massive navy, but just something. I’m shocked there isn’t a bigger city on the western coast with a navy to defend from the Ironborn.

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Yeah it never made much sense to me. It never had to be a massive navy, but just something. I’m shocked there isn’t a bigger city on the western coast with a navy to defend from the Ironborn.

yeah that bugs me as well

[Nevets]

1.  White Harbor, and for that matter, Westeros itself, is not a real place.  It exists only in the mind of George R.R. Martin.

2.  Martin cannot think of everything.  Hence, inconsistencies will inevitably creep in.

3.  If he is trying to think of everything, and eliminate all inconsistencies, maybe that's what's taking him so long. 

As long as Manderly is building up now, that's all that really matters.

Edited February 13 by Nevets

[Gilbert Green]

49 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

But I find it really hard to believe that no other Stark until Eddard was smart enough to order House Manderly to build a new fleet.

Why believe it then?  I'm confused.

49 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

And yet it would appear that those ships and sailors have vanished by the time of ASOIAF because Wyman needs Davos Seaworth to bring Rickon back from Skagos. How can a city on the coast have produced zero sailors capable of going out onto open water?

Whatever Manderly's reasons for sending Davos to Skagos, they do not mean he lacks ships.  He has ships, and he is secretly making more.  It might have more to do with Davos being a skilled smuggler capable of braving treacherous waters in a small ship.

[Gilbert Green]

8 minutes ago, Nevets said:

2.  Martin cannot think of everything.  Hence, inconsistencies will inevitably creep in.

True, but in this case, where is the inconsistency?

[Gilbert Green]

The Starks put down the Skagosi sea raiders, and forbade them the sea, in the time since Brandon the Burner.  Obviously this could not have been done without some naval force.  You are being too literal about "no strength at sea".  Manderly is obviously thinking of the North's ability to compete with the naval fleets of other parts of Westeros.  It does not mean he has no warships at all, and it certainly does not mean he has no ships at all.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

56 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

I’m shocked there isn’t a bigger city on the western coast with a navy to defend from the Ironborn.

I mean, that does make sense to me. The North would pretty much only trade with Lannisport or else go all the way down to the Reach, and since the Iron born would be regularly attacking, it wouldn’t be worth it to try and build such a city. The North doesn’t have the population, wealth, or power of the Westerlands, after all. At least on the east coast, there’s no Ironborn and also a whole other continent to trade with.

Edited February 13 by Floki of the Ironborn

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

14 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I mean, that does make sense to me. The North would pretty much only trade with Lannisport or else go all the way down to the Reach, and since the Iron born would be regularly attacking, it wouldn’t be worth it to try and build such a city. The North doesn’t have the population, wealth, or power of the Westerlands, after all. At least on the east coast, there’s no Ironborn and also a whole other continent to trade with.

I doesn’t have to be White Harbor sized city, but soe type of fortification against the Ironborn

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

I doesn’t have to be White Harbor sized city, but soe type of fortification against the Ironborn

That should be Bear Island. The IB used it to raid the North, so it's not like an island with tons of old timber and a thriving fishing industry wouldn't be a natural point of resistance.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That should be Bear Island. The IB used it to raid the North, so it's not like an island with tons of old timber and a thriving fishing industry wouldn't be a natural point of resistance.

That’s a good point. Instead of making them dirt poor people, they should’ve been the most renowned warriors in the North, with a well fortified home island and a passable navy

[Angel Eyes]

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

1.  White Harbor, and for that matter, Westeros itself, is not a real place.  It exists only in the mind of George R.R. Martin.

 

If he's going to insist on realism in his work, a realistic deterrent for the Ironborn would have been a fleet or at least some form of coastal defense system. But it isn't there.

[Nevets]

11 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

If he's going to insist on realism in his work, a realistic deterrent for the Ironborn would have been a fleet or at least some form of coastal defense system. But it isn't there.

The Ironborn don't bother that side of the North.  It's mentioned during Davos's visit.  Given how far that coast is from the Iron Islands that makes sense.

They are a threat to the west coast of the North, but outside of Bear Island there are no population centers there.  

There is no large fleet in White Harbor because there's no need for one.  The Crown fleet can deal with the Narrow Sea under normal circumstances.  Unfortunately, that fleet is now controlled by the North's enemies, hence the new fleet.

Edited February 14 by Nevets

[Curled Finger]

Maybe could be the kingdoms were precluded from building their own naval defenses by some nut bag king in the past?  Or perhaps such a building effort would have been seen as disloyal or commandeered by the crown and taken to Kings Landing in the past?  I don't recall anyone except the Redwines really having any sort of naval presence since the Dance of the Dragons.  

[Craving Peaches]

Didn't Brandon the Burner burn all the North's ships at some point and since then they've not really had a navy?

[Alden Rothack]

7 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

If he's going to insist on realism in his work, a realistic deterrent for the Ironborn would have been a fleet or at least some form of coastal defense system. But it isn't there.

The Ironborn are still there only because the North doesn't have a western fleet

 

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

The Ironborn don't bother that side of the North.  It's mentioned during Davos's visit.  Given how far that coast is from the Iron Islands that makes sense.

They are a threat to the west coast of the North, but outside of Bear Island there are no population centers there.  

There is no large fleet in White Harbor because there's no need for one.  The Crown fleet can deal with the Narrow Sea under normal circumstances.  Unfortunately, that fleet is now controlled by the North's enemies, hence the new fleet.

7 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

The Ironborn don't bother that side of the North.  It's mentioned during Davos's visit.  Given how far that coast is from the Iron Islands that makes sense.

They are a threat to the west coast of the North, but outside of Bear Island there are no population centers there. 

That’s a good point. Instead of making them dirt poor people, they should’ve been the most renowned warriors in the North, with a well fortified home island and a passable navy

They would need a lot more people for that

[astarkchoice]

18 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Yeah it never made much sense to me. It never had to be a massive navy, but just something. I’m shocked there isn’t a bigger city on the western coast with a navy to defend from the Ironborn.

According to folk on the other forums its not needed as apparently the ironborn are easily removed from lands or repelled!   held territory in the north for generations at a time before but somehow  now the IB are more of a nusiance than actual killers!

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I have indeed always found the fact that the North didn't rebuild a fleet after Brandon the Burner until ADWD to be one of these instances where the plot was really absurd and forced.  

Though in Davos and Rickon's case, Wyman Manderly must have thought that it was less risky and more stealthy to send an experienced smuggler rather than send one of his captains and risks revealing his fleet to the Iron Throne and its allies and preserve his ressources as long as possible. 

Edited February 14 by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9

[hnv]

21 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

Yeah it never made much sense to me. It never had to be a massive navy, but just something. I’m shocked there isn’t a bigger city on the western coast with a navy to defend from the Ironborn.

It's a bit hard to maintain a big city there so far from any trade route or economic basis. But should have definitely been a sturdy line of castles and holdfasts.