Lady Stonehearts Simp Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 He is straight up a pedophile. Like regardless of the rest of his actions, he grooms his underage niece and then he probably grooms Nettles. He is actually one of the worst human beings in the universe this side of Ramsay Snow and Euron Greyjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many-Faced Votary Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 I can't comment on why Mr. Martin likes him, but I will say that Daemon is a great character despite being a terrible person, and in Martin's own words: who doesn't like a good villain? To be frank, the likeliest answer is that he's a "bad boy." If you're a terrible person who is commonly viewed as "badass," and are male, you will inevitably have fans. The charismatic Matt Smith portraying him in House of the Dragon probably contributes as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 It's that infectious music Preston Jacobs plays every time the guy's name is mentioned. We don't know he's the worst guy ever. Remember, all we know is history book stuff written by guys who didn't like him. We are getting a look at how things may have been different from what we thought in the new thing that can't be named. For me Daemon was unpredictable and I like that. He was determined and loyal to his royal family and gave the rest of the world the finger. Targs are weird, but Daemon is an interesting sort of weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 GRRM seems to consider Daemon to be a "rogue" type character, analogous to Jack Vance's Cugel the Clever (the vile narcissistic protagonist of his fantasy novel THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD), who in turn seems to be modeled on Liane the Wayfarer from Vance's earlier short story from THE DYING EARTH. It is reasonably clear Vance did not like Liane. Vance never said he liked Cugel. He does not kill him off at the end of the novel, but neither does he reward him with success. When he wrote a sequel, many years later, he allows him more success for his efforts, but also made him considerably less vile, a development which I felt made some intuitive sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many-Faced Votary Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 There's a name I haven't heard in some time! I so intensely disliked Cugel that I could barely read The Eyes of the Overworld. But as you said, the sequel made him a lot less reprehensible, and therefore significantly more interesting and likeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: He is straight up a pedophile. Nope. Pedophilia is the atraction towards prepubescent children. Rhaenyra was nearly sixteen when Daemon was rumored to take her maidenhead, and Neetles was 16 or 17 when she was accused of being with him. That doesn't mean it isn't still wrong. It clearly is. But both girls would be over the age of consent in most of our real world democracies (and in Westeros girls are routinely married at earlier ages). There's also the fact that we don't know for certain what Daemon did. Many fans (including me) are convinced that Daemon and Neetles were never a sexual couple, and they had a father/daughter relationship. And the exact details of what happened between him and Rhaenyra are not clear (you are not going to believe Mushroom's delusions and Ser Eustace is not exactly impartial). So there's more than enough room to make a more benevolent reading of Daemon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 After GRRM published "The Rogue Prince" in the anthology ROGUES, the described the anthology as "a lineup of original stories about cads, swindlers, n'eer-do-wells, and scoundrels from some of our favorite writers." So at least he is not recommending Daemon as a good person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gizzard of Oz Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 GRRM likes grey characters. His idea of grey is black to me but he is the author. Rogue prince is bordering on the dark side of the spectrum. To George, he is grey. I also like Daemon because he's an entertaining read and he fought for Rhaenyra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 23 minutes ago, The hairy bear said: Nope. Pedophilia is the atraction towards prepubescent children. Rhaenyra was nearly sixteen when Daemon was rumored to take her maidenhead, and Neetles was 16 or 17 when she was accused of being with him. That doesn't mean that it's still wrong. It clearly is. But both girls would be over the age of consent in most of our real world democracies (and in Westeros girls are routinely married at earlier ages). An older ethic would have condemned Daemon as a seducer and a cad. And he would also have been condemned for seducing an 18 year old virgin, or a 21 year old virgin, or even a 30-year old virgin. His partner in sin would also be regarded as a fornicator, but the younger and more childlike she was, the more the finger would be pointed at him. But our society has overthrown the old ethic, and has tried to compensate by raising age-of-consent laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 12 minutes ago, The Gizzard of Oz said: GRRM likes grey characters. His idea of grey is black to me but he is the author. Rogue prince is bordering on the dark side of the spectrum. To George, he is grey. I also like Daemon because he's an entertaining read and he fought for Rhaenyra. Out of curiosity, when did GRRM ever describe him as "grey"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 This might be wrong, but my understanding of the character’s genesis was that, like a lot of readers, GRRM found himself suddenly short of one Red Viper just as he was realizing how much he loved him, and this was sort of his Targ reclamation project. Which is funny, because Oberyn is pound for pound my favourite character in the series…Jamie in terms of bigger profiles, and yes there may be a pattern here…but like the OP Daemon never really measured up to me. More talked of than shown, in that way. Demonstrably roguish rather than the genuine article. Or maybe I was just a bit further from HS when I read him. I do agree that his redeeming quality, if it is that, is his essential loyalty when not acting on impulse. But I dunno, reminds me a bit of the proti-nihilist Act 5/Scene 5 speech from MacBeth, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 I don't really find Daemon too interesting as a character. But do wonder what was are earlier examples of the fantasy "rogue". Conan, in certain stories, like "Rogues in the House", and some Clark Ashton Smith characters, like Satampra Zeiros. Both are from the 1930s. I already mentioned Liane and Cugel both decades later. Any earlier examples? I guess we have villanous "tragic heros" like MacBeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 12 hours ago, Gilbert Green said: Out of curiosity, when did GRRM ever describe him as "grey"? Here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schloetz Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 15 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: He is straight up a pedophile. Like regardless of the rest of his actions, he grooms his underage niece and then he probably grooms Nettles. He is actually one of the worst human beings in the universe this side of Ramsay Snow and Euron Greyjoy. Surely you understand the irony of posting this with a Rhaegar pfp and name, who crowned Lyanna his queen of love and beauty at 14 and had sex with at 15? That's younger than Daemon and Rhaenyra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Here. Thank you. I'm not surprised, but I was curious. GRRM calls Daemon "greyest", when his meaning is seemingly closer to "blackest", or at least, the darkest shade of grey, closest to black. The concept of "grey" characters, originally made sense only in the context of white and black as a metaphor for good and evil. Logically, therefore, "greyest" should mean most ordinary. But clearly, that's not what GRRM means. I guess one factor in this confusion is that, in today's social climate, it is now considered problematic to use white and black as metaphor for good and evil. It is still okay to talk about greyness, but who knows what that means any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sword Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 I've always liked him as a character. He has both good and bad characteristics, similar to many characters that are in that morally grey area. Jamie Lannister comes to mind. If you boil down a character into one trait that you don't like... you wont like very many characters in GOT. lol He definitely was trying to groom his niece. But, in my opinion it had much more to do with him wanting to marry her, over any type of sexual grooming. It was his claim that he wanted to strengthen. Whether that makes it better or worse I'm not sure. Also you have to keep in mind the norm for the Targs was to intermarry, and the age difference wasn't viewed in the same light in the medieval period as it is today. In terms of age difference ol' man Walder Frey is on shakier ground. There are far worse guys out there in this fantasy realm then this elite warrior and commander of the Blacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Daemon is a great character, being a complex man, adventurous, charismatic, impulsive, ruthless and taunting, cunning, antipathetic and with a soft spot for some people at the same time. He's one of GRRM's best examples of morally grey characters who aren't really sympathetic, I have never found him to be sympathetic, I even find him despicable especially after he ordered the Blood and Cheese murder, but still very badass and entertaining to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Stonehearts Simp Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 3 hours ago, Fullbuster said: Surely you understand the irony of posting this with a Rhaegar pfp and name, who crowned Lyanna his queen of love and beauty at 14 and had sex with at 15? That's younger than Daemon and Rhaenyra. I acknowledge your point but elect to ignore it cuz prophecy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Just now, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said: I acknowledge your point but elect to ignore it cuz prophecy Plus Rhaegar was a lot closer to age than Daemon and Rhaenyra; Rhaegar would have been 23, Lyanna 15 or 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 50 minutes ago, Northern Sword said: Jamie Lannister comes to mind. I feel like Daemon is much darker than Jaime, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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