Why Do People & GRRM Like Daemon Targaryen?

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

9 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Plus Rhaegar was a lot closer to age than Daemon and Rhaenyra; Rhaegar would have been 23, Lyanna 15 or 16.

And Rhaegar didn’t groom her either. We don’t know any details on what their relationship was. I could have been a kidnap and SA situation. But I’m betting she ran off with him out of not wanting to marry Robert, believing the prophecy, and probably a crush on Rhaegar.

I hope this isn’t sexist or offensive, if it is please tell me I want to learn, but I could definitely see their relationship being like how modern girls go crazy about pop stars and the like. Rhaegar seemed like the Westerosi embodiment of that to an extent.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

I hope this isn’t sexist or offensive, if it is please tell me I want to learn, but I could definitely see their relationship being like how modern girls go crazy about pop stars and the like.

I would agree but Lyanna is also portrayed as being relatively savvy at least when it comes to Robert, so it would be a bit odd for her to be mature about that but then run off with Rhaegar because she had a typical teenage girl fixation.

Spoiler

And I don't think it's sexist or offensive to see it that way.

[Angel Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

And Rhaegar didn’t groom her either. We don’t know any details on what their relationship was. I could have been a kidnap and SA situation. But I’m betting she ran off with him out of not wanting to marry Robert, believing the prophecy, and probably a crush on Rhaegar.

I hope this isn’t sexist or offensive, if it is please tell me I want to learn, but I could definitely see their relationship being like how modern girls go crazy about pop stars and the like. Rhaegar seemed like the Westerosi embodiment of that to an extent.

I think that part of Rhaegar's abilities have been played up; he was a good harpist and singer, read a lot (to the point where it was joked Rhaella swallowed books and candles while pregnant with him), and a very good jouster, but not practical. The whole plan with Lyanna (if there was one) wasn't thought out, made a strategic mistake that got his army routed, and the only time he fought outside of sporting competition was a loss.

[Northern Sword]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I feel like Daemon is much darker than Jaime, though.

Jamie was fucking his sister, killed the king and threw a little boy out of a window... so

What were Daemon's worst crimes? Blood and Cheese for certain, but that was Eye for an Eye.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

11 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Jamie was fucking his sister, killed the king and threw a little boy out of a window... so

What were Daemon's worst crimes? Blood and Cheese for certain, but that was Eye for an Eye.

I meant in terms of general demeanor.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:27 PM, Gilbert Green said:

I'm not surprised, but I was curious.

I find it surprising that GRRM ranks Daemon as his favourite Targaryen. That would put him above Dany and Egg, two characters that George spent much more time developing.

[Alester Florent]

People like Daemon because he's cool. Cool is very difficult to analyse, virtually impossible to define. But he is.

Over the years I think he's become a bit less cool - overexposure and overexplanation will do that - and I don't think Daemon will ever be cooler than he was in The Princess and the Queen when we met him for the first time, but the same aura remains.

Really, I think that's all there is to it.

[Many-Faced Votary]

9 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I find it surprising that GRRM ranks Daemon as his favourite Targaryen. That would put him above Dany and Egg, two characters that George spent much more time developing.

He specifically cited his love of morally grey characters and how dark a shade Daemon is in his answer, which could explain it.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

18 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I find it surprising that GRRM ranks Daemon as his favourite Targaryen. That would put him above Dany and Egg, two characters that George spent much more time developing.

I’ve always found the Dunk & Egg era Targaryens the most fascinating. Baelor, Maekar, and Valarr to be specific.

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I find it surprising that GRRM ranks Daemon as his favourite Targaryen. That would put him above Dany and Egg, two characters that George spent much more time developing.

Context.  He's currently promoting HOTD.  And he thinks villains are fun.  And he thinks Daemon is a villain.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

He specifically cited his love of morally grey characters and how dark a shade Daemon is in his answer, which could explain it.

Another way Benioff and Weiss took things too far.

[Many-Faced Votary]

13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Another way Benioff and Weiss took things too far.

I wouldn't say they "took it too far;" it's more that they never understood the source material at all, and somehow derived the exact wrong messages from it.

Lack of quality aside, the abomination was grimdark from the beginning, got more and more nihilistic as it progressed, and actively endorsed the sort of horrible behavior, tropes, and protagonist-centered morality that the book series consciously rejects.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the romanticism of Mr. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire -- and in particular, why The Winds of Winter is followed by A Dream of Spring.

[Angel Eyes]

3 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I wouldn't say they "took it too far;" it's more that they never understood the source material at all, and somehow derived the exact wrong messages from it.

Lack of quality aside, the abomination was grimdark from the beginning, got more and more nihilistic as it progressed, and actively endorsed the sort of horrible behavior, tropes, and protagonist-centered morality that the book series consciously rejects.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the romanticism of Mr. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire -- and in particular, why The Winds of Winter is followed by A Dream of Spring.

Well, it isn't as if most of the characters in the books aren't trending in a darker direction.

[Many-Faced Votary]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Well, it isn't as if most of the characters in the books aren't trending in a darker direction.

Of course they are, in the penultimate book of the series, appropriately titled The Winds of Winter.

But that course will be reversed, and heroism and goodness will ultimately prevail. The following, and final, book in the series is titled A Dream of Spring for a reason.

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Of course they are, in the penultimate book of the series, appropriately titled The Winds of Winter.

But that course will be reversed, and heroism and goodness will ultimately prevail. The following, and final, book in the series is titled A Dream of Spring for a reason.

Unless it's only a mere dream, a hope of a hope. Wouldn't put it past Martin to pull the rug out from under our feet.

[Many-Faced Votary]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Unless it's only a mere dream, a hope of a hope. Wouldn't put it past Martin to pull the rug out from under our feet.

How many times have we had this conversation? You seem to have an incorrect (as per Mr. Martin's own words) understanding of him and his work. Furthermore, like D&D, you seem to forget that the deconstruction of tropes is followed by their reconstruction, when they are explored and made to work through experience.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

27 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Unless it's only a mere dream, a hope of a hope. Wouldn't put it past Martin to pull the rug out from under our feet.

I mean, he has said many times that he wants the ending to be bittersweet, citing the Scouring of the Shire as an example.

[Many-Faced Votary]

People tend to think that "bittersweet" means "bitter" for some reason, and fail to acknowledge that losses and trials and tribulations in a character's journey to contextualize their destination also matter.

In fact, most acclaimed fantasy has bittersweet endings, even series intended for children; it's in some ways a trait of the genre. Even Harry Potter had an ending that could reasonably be described as bittersweet, and no one can say that most of the good characters didn't end up decently well.

[Angel Eyes]

11 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, he has said many times that he wants the ending to be bittersweet, citing the Scouring of the Shire as an example.

That would make it bitter. As for the Scouring of the Shire, the show had that with Daenerys rushing north to help fight the existential threat and then going back south to fight a smaller, personal goal... and losing herself.

[Aldarion]

15 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

That would make it bitter. As for the Scouring of the Shire, the show had that with Daenerys rushing north to help fight the existential threat and then going back south to fight a smaller, personal goal... and losing herself.

I don't think these can be compared, precisely because of the "losing herself" part. The entire point of "Scouring" was to show that nothing can be left unaffected by the evil - but that human heart can still prevail. It is at once both pessimistic ("bitter") and cautiously optimistic ("sweet").

Daenerys losing herself is all bitter with no sweetness - bittersweet ending will have been if she and Jon had to sacrifice themselves to stop the Others, leaving Westeros with an uncertain future... but future nonetheless.