Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 59 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Plus Cleos Frey; as the go-between for the Starks and the Lannisters, Robb could have had terms set up for Sansa there, like "While my sister is under your custody she is not to be harmed; if Sansa is mistreated that punishment will be met with equal force on your uncle Ser Jaime". Did the Lannisters know that Jaime was already free by the time they married Sansa and Tyrion, I wonder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 12 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said: Robb Stark's worst sin is not the murder of Rickard Karstark. It was his betrayal of House Frey. He broke his oath to the Freys because he wanted Jeyne Westerling. He followed the calling of his heart instead of doing what he had sworn to do. This is far from a minor sin. Robb broke what is the equivalent of a contract and the other party is entitled to compensation. The cheated party is also entitled to inflict Robb with punitive damages. https://slate.com/business/2013/06/game-of-thrones-economics-red-wedding-robb-stark-and-breach-of-trust-in-marriage-alliances.html  Robb Stark was the stronger party and punishing him was beyond the capabilities of the Freys. An ambush like the red wedding was the only means the Freys had to punish Robb. It was also the price requested by Lord Tywin before he allows the rebel lords Walder and Roose to win their way back to peace with King Joffrey. Seen from this view, what Walder decided is perfectly understandable. Roose had his own reason and even they can be justified. Robb was not in control of his own mind when he married Jeyne. He was under the influence of one of grandma Maggy's love potions, a powerful one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said: Plus Cleos Frey; as the go-between for the Starks and the Lannisters, Robb could have had terms set up for Sansa there, like "While my sister is under your custody she is not to be harmed; if Sansa is mistreated that punishment will be met with equal force on your uncle Ser Jaime". How exactly were they supposed to know how well Sansa was being treated? Robb would have needed his own Varys, for that type of info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 9 minutes ago, sifth said: How exactly were they supposed to know how well Sansa was being treated? Robb would have needed his own Varys, for that type of info. No remember tyrion literaly stops her getting beaten and stripped in front of the entire court! Makeup isnt exactly a science back then either so any bruises will show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 39 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: No remember tyrion literaly stops her getting beaten and stripped in front of the entire court! Makeup isnt exactly a science back then either so any bruises will show. Yea and are we ever told that Robb knew any of this? Nathan Stark 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Robb is sinless.   Bendric Dayne and Ser Arthurs Dawn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, sifth said: How exactly were they supposed to know how well Sansa was being treated? Robb would have needed his own Varys, for that type of info. If Robb's own father was executed by the Crown despite all advice, it should occur to Robb that Joffrey isn't to be trusted with Sansa's safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendric Dayne Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Nah there’s no excusing the Freys. Robb Stark broke his pact for understandable reasons. There’s no evidence he wanted Jeyne Westerling, all we know is that in a moment of weakness he slept with her and then he had to do what he felt was right by marrying her. The Freys could have left his service then and there and joined the Lannisters or just abstain from taking sides like the Arryns. They decided to negotiate with Robb to reconcile their alliance and agreed to join houses with Edmure Tully, something Walder Frey wanted since forever. If the Freys felt it was unfair to trade Robb for Edmure they could have rejected the deal, as simple as that.  Maybe the only way the Lannisters would have accepted the Freys into their alliance was having them do the Red Wedding, but again the Freys could have refused. The Lannisters were losing that war and the Freys should have known that the Lannisters would have need of their men. They could have refused to do the RW. Since the Lannisters were desperate at this point they would have just taken the Frey forces to try and win the war with them. It would have been acceptable for the Starks to lose the war in battle after losing the support of the Freys. Robb would have nothing to complain about and would accept that he made a mistake. The RW was completely unacceptable however.  In fact, it’s not only unacceptable, but it was unnecessary as well. Even if the Freys didn’t join the Lannisters in battle and just abstained from the war, without their support and that of the Karstarks, the Starks would have probably lost the war. If they joined their forces to the Lannisters, the war would almost definitely be over. Like it’s possible that Robb would have just surrendered and gone back to the North without fighting another battle, and no one would have anything bad to say to the Freys because it would have been Robb the only one who broke his word. The RW makes the Freys look terrible. Pretty stupid move from Walder when you think about it. Who’s gonna trust them now? Half of Westeros hates them for the RW and the other half will never trust them. Walder basically doomed House Frey with the RW. EggBlue, Nathan Stark, Craving Peaches and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 12 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: If Robb's own father was executed by the Crown despite all advice, it should occur to Robb that Joffrey isn't to be trusted with Sansa's safety. Not safe, sure. He has Jamie to keep the Lannisters in check for that. However he is unaware that Joffrey is frequently having Sansa beaten by his KG. Nathan Stark, EggBlue and kissdbyfire 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Killing the bannerman who went to battle for him is bad. But yeah, it’s the betrayal of the Freys that did him in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many-Faced Votary Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, The Commentator said: Killing the bannerman who went to battle for him is bad. But yeah, it’s the betrayal of the Freys that did him in. Robb's worst sin was not "betraying" the Freys enough. Ser Arthurs Dawn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 58 minutes ago, Bendric Dayne said: Nah there’s no excusing the Freys. Robb Stark broke his pact for understandable reasons. There’s no evidence he wanted Jeyne Westerling, all we know is that in a moment of weakness he slept with her and then he had to do what he felt was right by marrying her. The Freys could have left his service then and there and joined the Lannisters or just abstain from taking sides like the Arryns. They decided to negotiate with Robb to reconcile their alliance and agreed to join houses with Edmure Tully, something Walder Frey wanted since forever. If the Freys felt it was unfair to trade Robb for Edmure they could have rejected the deal, as simple as that.  Maybe the only way the Lannisters would have accepted the Freys into their alliance was having them do the Red Wedding, but again the Freys could have refused. The Lannisters were losing that war and the Freys should have known that the Lannisters would have need of their men. They could have refused to do the RW. Since the Lannisters were desperate at this point they would have just taken the Frey forces to try and win the war with them. It would have been acceptable for the Starks to lose the war in battle after losing the support of the Freys. Robb would have nothing to complain about and would accept that he made a mistake. The RW was completely unacceptable however.  In fact, it’s not only unacceptable, but it was unnecessary as well. Even if the Freys didn’t join the Lannisters in battle and just abstained from the war, without their support and that of the Karstarks, the Starks would have probably lost the war. If they joined their forces to the Lannisters, the war would almost definitely be over. Like it’s possible that Robb would have just surrendered and gone back to the North without fighting another battle, and no one would have anything bad to say to the Freys because it would have been Robb the only one who broke his word. The RW makes the Freys look terrible. Pretty stupid move from Walder when you think about it. Who’s gonna trust them now? Half of Westeros hates them for the RW and the other half will never trust them. Walder basically doomed House Frey with the RW. It was worse than a crime.  It was a blunder. Bendric Dayne, Many-Faced Votary and Nathan Stark 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: I'd say another one is that Robb never tried to rescue Sansa; it should have been on his mind that Joffrey having Ned executed against all advice meant that she was in danger at any given moment. I agree with this. (though I still wouldn't call it "sin") . I think Robb found himself in an impossible situation in which his only option was to win the war to rescue his sisters and being so young and inexperienced didn't help him at all. none of his advisors seemed to be useful; Cat just wanted her children back which was kind of selfish to abandon the cause when the others had lost their kids in an attempt to rescue her husband and now wanted justice and revenge. and Robb was trying his best to compromise. I guess he thought having Jaimie and keeping him alive equals fair enough treatment from Lannisters. after all, being Ned's son I doubt he could ever bring himself to threaten anyone with torture. though, after they married Sansa to Tyrion (something Robb couldn't pay off with anything to Jaimie), he became completely desperate which led to his famous will. Ser Arthurs Dawn and Many-Faced Votary 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Stonehearts Simp Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Robb’s only sin was not slaughtering the Freys as soon as his army was given leave to pass through the Twins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bendric Dayne Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Robb’s only mistake was probably not marrying the Frey girl when he first crossed the Twins. Like I get he was in a hurry to try and save Ned, but a quick wedding would have avoided all the problems he had later. He would have never slept with Jeyne Westerling or he would have but he wouldn’t be able to marry her cuz he would already be married. And who’s to say his Frey wife wouldn’t be the one tending to his wounds instead of JW, she could have followed him in his battles the same way Catelyn was doing, so she could have been there ensuring that Robb wouldn’t even sleep with anyone else. This would mean that the Stark/Frey alliance would never have broken.  So yeah hindsight is 20/20 and he was in a hurry to save Ned, but then again he should have been in a hurry to save Sansa when he married JW and also stopped the war to attend the RW, so he would have actually saved time by marrying the Frey girl real quick. Maybe he wanted the wedding to be an actual feast but again his marriage to JW seems like it was a small affair so his marriage to the Frey girl the very night they agreed to the wedding would have been a bigger wedding than the one he got with JW considering he had all his bannermen riding south with him. So yeah if he had married the Frey girl ASAP he would probably still be alive, but truth be told the Freys are so disgusting to me that I’m glad this didn’t happen even though he died for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 2 hours ago, sifth said: Yea and are we ever told that Robb knew any of this? It seems odd not one lord or lady sent him a lil raven in secret about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said: If Robb's own father was executed by the Crown despite all advice, it should occur to Robb that Joffrey isn't to be trusted with Sansa's safety. Well, that's why Robb was fighting a war. You act like it's Robb's fault that Sansa is a prisoner of Lannisters and he's just not taking her plight seriously. But Robb is hundreds of miles away from Kings Landing, fighting a war with the people holding her hostage. He did what he could for his family, which givin the circumstances was not much at all. EggBlue and Many-Faced Votary 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said: Well, that's why Robb was fighting a war. You act like it's Robb's fault that Sansa is a prisoner of Lannisters and he's just not taking her plight seriously. But Robb is hundreds of miles away from Kings Landing, fighting a war with the people holding her hostage. He did what he could for his family, which givin the circumstances was not much at all. Yes. The point of his war to free his father and sisters, was it not? And yet it apparently doesn't occur to him that Joffrey isn't to be trusted with hostages with Ned's execution, or that his battles lead to Sansa getting beaten. What do you think would happen if after Oxcross Ser Boros slapped Sansa with his armored glove and she died from bleeding on the brain (think Home Alone where Marley hits both Harry and Marv with his shovel, which would have been fatal in real life), or Joffrey executed her just because he felt like it? He had Ned executed because he felt like it. One would think that Robb would have been a lot more focused on getting his sisters back, but he doesn't even try. Edited February 17, 2023 by Angel Eyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 30 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: It seems odd not one lord or lady sent him a lil raven in secret about it. Yes or no will do. Are we ever told in the story that Robb knew how Sansa was being treated? Conjecture answers, like the ones you provided do not count. Nathan Stark 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 5 minutes ago, sifth said: Yes or no will do. Are we ever told in the story that Robb knew how Sansa was being treated? Conjecture answers, like the ones you provided do not count. No ally mc beal we do not know , hed probably have mentioned it in his talks with the lannisters too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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