Robb's worst sin

[Angel Eyes]

6 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The Starks should have given more than they did.  Edmure was not enough to repay the Freys after what Robb had done.  The Starks might have given up some land to the Freys and married Cat to one of Walder's older boys to placate them.  

Or the Freys could have just held up the Starks at the bridge until the Lannisters caught up.

[Alester Florent]

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He was also heir 

At the time the marriage to Edmure was negotiated, he was LP, which  Ithink is what SeanF means.

[Hugorfonics]

4 minutes ago, Adelstein said:

At the time the marriage to Edmure was negotiated, he was LP, which  Ithink is what SeanF means.

Oh thanks! Sorry Sean!

[Moiraine Sedai]

Robb was immature. He should have honored the oath to Walder. The thing with Karstark is an issue that can wait until they settle the war. A war he was not going to win. Jaime was their ticket to bargain with Tywin until Catelyn let him loose.  

Edited February 18, 2023 by Moiraine Sedai

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

19 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Robb was immature. He should have honored the oath to Walder. The thing with Karstark is an issue that can wait until they settle the war. A war he was not going to win. Jaime was their ticket to bargain with Tywin until Catelyn let him loose.  

He could’ve definitely still won if Walder didn’t betray him. The war would’ve dragged on for years I’m sure, but once Robb reclaimed the North, the North would be independent without doubt. To keep the Riverlands would be what prolongs the war, and he’d have to fight the Lannisters to the negotiating table. If events in the Vale transpire as they do in the story, and Robb and Catelyn are still alive, I could see LF bringing Sansa back as a piece offering, along with the Vale. Catelyn is LF’s one great weakness.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Robb was immature. He should have honored the oath to Walder. The thing with Karstark is an issue that can wait until they settle the war. A war he was not going to win. Jaime was their ticket to bargain with Tywin until Catelyn let him loose.  

To be fair cat gets a lotta shit for a decision she makes just after losing her husband, seeing a son crippled , father dead , 2  infant sons killed all in short order while having one daughter captive, one missing presumed dead , multiple men+ women   she knew personaly murdered at KL , her son frontline in a dangerous war , seeing her own sister as batshit crazy even threatening her, fought off an assasin greviously wounding her hands   and of course lest we forget she witnessed an actual shadow murder a man!!!  She can be forgiven for not thinking 100% rationaly 

[csuszka1948]

On 2/17/2023 at 11:17 PM, Nathan Stark said:

 

 

On 2/17/2023 at 10:18 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Robb was doing a pretty bang up job bringing Tywin to his knees. The Battle of Oxcross was the only time in the war up to that point where an entire army completely ceased to exist. The entire campaign in the West was about forcing Tywin to move further away from Kings Landing so he'd be unable to defend it. The reason it didn't work was because the Battle of the Fords forced by Edmure delayed Tywin long enough to get word of the impending assault on Kings Landing. Robb's plan to bring the Lannisters to their knees and force a surrender was sound. It was undone by events largely unforseen by anybody and through poor communication with Edmure. Robb defeating the Lannisters outright was always a strong possibility until the Lannister victory in Kings Landing.

And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon. 

No, that was not the point of his campaign on the West. 

At the time he went to the west with 6 k cavalry, he sent Theon to make an alliance with Balon and his mother to make an alliance with Renly, while Stafford was amassing a small army in Lannisport, Tywin was staying at Harrenhal and Renly had a 80-100 k army which have been slowly advancing north. 

At this point, his goal was to defeat Stafford's army before it could unite with Tywin's army, let the Ironborn take Lannisport, plunder the West and take its castles, while letting Renly and Tywin play it out (with Renly probably winning since he has a much larger army).

 

This plan was actually sound and makes much more sense than drawing Tywin's 20 k army (7 k cavalry, 13 k infrantry) to the West and somehow leading him in a wild chase in his own lands just so that Renly or Stannis can take King's Landing easily.

It only didn't work out because he was wrong about Balon's intentions, and obviously couldn't foresee Renly's death or that the Tyrells join Joffrey afterwards. 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

6 minutes ago, csuszka1948 said:

 

No, that was not the point of his campaign on the West. 

At the time he went to the west with 6 k cavalry, he sent Theon to make an alliance with Balon and his mother to make an alliance with Renly, while Stafford was amassing a small army in Lannisport, Tywin was staying at Harrenhal and Renly had a 80-100 k army which have been slowly advancing north. 

At this point, his goal was to defeat Stafford's army before it could unite with Tywin's army, let the Ironborn take Lannisport, plunder the West and take its castles, while letting Renly and Tywin play it out (with Renly probably winning since he has a much larger army).

 

This plan was actually sound and makes much more sense than drawing Tywin's 20 k army (7 k cavalry, 13 k infrantry) to the West and somehow leading him in a wild chase in his own lands just so that Renly or Stannis can take King's Landing easily.

It only didn't work out because he was wrong about Balon's intentions, and obviously couldn't foresee Renly's death or that the Tyrells join Joffrey afterwards. 

Honestly this just makes me think Balon is even stupider than I originally remembered. It made so much more sense to attack Lannisport. With Renly alive I mean. Tywin looked as good as dead, and Lannisport is super rich. 

[csuszka1948]

9 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

To be fair cat gets a lotta shit for a decision she makes just after losing her husband, seeing a son crippled , father dead , 2  infant sons killed all in short order while having one daughter captive, one missing presumed dead , multiple men+ women   she knew personaly murdered at KL , her son frontline in a dangerous war , seeing her own sister as batshit crazy even threatening her, fought off an assasin greviously wounding her hands   and of course lest we forget she witnessed an actual shadow murder a man!!!  She can be forgiven for not thinking 100% rationaly 

Yes, I think it is easy to judge the decisions of the characters from an outside perspective, but if you were living and breathing in their world, you would probably make similar mistakes. Yes, she has made a huge mistake, but she only did so after 1) her son was crippled, then attacked by an assassin, 2) her husband was killed and her daughters kept captive, 3) her sister - who started the whole thing by claiming the Lannisters murdered her husband - refusing to help, 4) and after returning from a peace negotiation which ended by witnessing a shadow murder a man she hears that her ward Theon has taken her family's castle and brutually murdered her two sons he grew up with.

How many of us wouldn't snap in such a situation? Consider that Cersei acts just as crazy after 'only' one of her children is poisoned and goes paranoid and almost insane after her brother kills her father and escapes. 

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, I think it is easy to judge the decisions of the characters from an outside perspective, but if you were living and breathing in their world, you would probably make similar mistakes. Yes, she has made a huge mistake, but she only did so after 1) her son was crippled, then attacked by an assassin, 2) her husband was killed and her daughters kept captive, 3) her sister - who started the whole thing by claiming the Lannisters murdered her husband - refusing to help, 4) and after returning from a peace negotiation which ended by witnessing a shadow murder a man she hears that her ward Theon has taken her family's castle and brutually murdered her two sons he grew up with.

How many of us wouldn't snap in such a situation? Consider that Cersei acts just as crazy after 'only' one of her children is poisoned and goes paranoid and almost insane after her brother kills her father and escapes. 

Yep  we almost forgot her oldest childhood pal helped kill her husband...a man she literaly told ned to trust 

[Angel Eyes]

On 2/18/2023 at 2:06 PM, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

He could’ve definitely still won if Walder didn’t betray him. The war would’ve dragged on for years I’m sure, but once Robb reclaimed the North, the North would be independent without doubt. To keep the Riverlands would be what prolongs the war, and he’d have to fight the Lannisters to the negotiating table. If events in the Vale transpire as they do in the story, and Robb and Catelyn are still alive, I could see LF bringing Sansa back as a piece offering, along with the Vale. Catelyn is LF’s one great weakness.

That's if Robb could get back to the North.

13 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Yep  we almost forgot her oldest childhood pal helped kill her husband...a man she literaly told ned to trust 

Isn't that hypocritical to say something like that? She told Ned not to trust Robert just because they were childhood friends, yet she says to trust Petyr on the basis of their childhood friendship?

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

Isn't that hypocritical to say something like that? She told Ned not to trust Robert just because they were childhood friends, yet she says to trust Petyr on the basis of their childhood friendship?

True

Cat: Hey ned trust this sneaky dude who says and acts sneakily because hes still  in love with me but dont trust robert your bff who you shed blood with.

Ned:  hes still? Wait .....no man in history has ever come out well trusting the guy his lady has placed in the simp friendzone forever bin! Me and bobby b were brothers in arms for f sake......wait my brother left this sleaze for dead...im.supposed to think he harbours 0 ill will? 

Cat: trust me..he still  loves me ,me and lysa used to.practice kissing with him  y'know!

Ned: me and robert did the same

 

Cat: what......what did you just say

Ned: nothing off to KL to trust your stalker even when he begins to creep on our daughter..love you always robert..i mean cat. 

[Angel Eyes]

51 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

True

Cat: Hey ned trust this sneaky dude who says and acts sneakily because hes still  in love with me but dont trust robert your bff who you shed blood with.

Ned:  hes still? Wait .....no man in history has ever come out well trusting the guy his lady has placed in the simp friendzone forever bin! Me and bobby b were brothers in arms for f sake......wait my brother left this sleaze for dead...im.supposed to think he harbours 0 ill will? 

Cat: trust me..he still  loves me ,me and lysa used to.practice kissing with him  y'know!

Ned: me and robert did the same

 

Cat: what......what did you just say

Ned: nothing off to KL to trust your stalker even when he begins to creep on our daughter..love you always robert..i mean cat. 

On the other hand if Ned read Wuthering Heights he might be a bit more wary.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

How about asking what Robb Stark's worst blunder was.  Sins don't necessarily lead to the catastrophe where Robb Stark led his followers to.  His blunders did.  He was fine in battle but sorry as hell as a ruler.  He made himself king but he was not good at ruling.  A good ruler would not kill Karstark.  A capable ruler would know the value of the Karstarks and weigh that against the value of honor.  Oathbreaking was his worst blunder and the one which directly led to the deaths of his followers.  The families back home deserves to know the truth of why the wedding went awry.  I don't think they would remember the Starks as fondly if they knew what Robb and Catelyn were up to. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 2/16/2023 at 10:40 PM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Robb Stark's worst sin is not the murder of Rickard Karstark.  It was his betrayal of House Frey.  He broke his oath to the Freys because he wanted Jeyne Westerling.  He followed the calling of his heart instead of doing what he had sworn to do.  This is far from a minor sin.  Robb broke what is the equivalent of a contract and the other party is entitled to compensation.  The cheated party is also entitled to inflict Robb with punitive damages. 

https://slate.com/business/2013/06/game-of-thrones-economics-red-wedding-robb-stark-and-breach-of-trust-in-marriage-alliances.html

 

Robb Stark was the stronger party and punishing him was beyond the capabilities of the Freys.  An ambush like the red wedding was the only means the Freys had to punish Robb.  It was also the price requested by Lord Tywin before he allows the rebel lords Walder and Roose to win their way back to peace with King Joffrey.  Seen from this view, what Walder decided is perfectly understandable.  Roose had his own reason and even they can be justified. 

I liked the article but can't agree with all of it.  I understand why Lord Walder chose to turn his back on the Starks.  The Starks never did deserve his loyal service.  Stark leadership left a lot to be desired and can best be summed up as gross incompetence.  Still we cannot wash away the brutality of the wedding.  It is a disgrace to agree to a second deal and then massacre the guests.  Both sides had something to give and both sides gave.  The Starks gave Edmure which is partial compensation for services already delivered.  I think the Starks owed more and should have given more for the second request for help from Walder.  But that is on Walder for not demanding more. 

Karstark was guilty of misconduct but Robb's and Cat's misconduct were even more serious.  Robb could have forgiven Karstark.  Robb was bad at ruling.  Catelyn was bad at being a team player.  The Starks were awful and they played badly. 

 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

28 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

I liked the article but can't agree with all of it.  I understand why Lord Walder chose to turn his back on the Starks.  The Starks never did deserve his loyal service.  Stark leadership left a lot to be desired and can best be summed up as gross incompetence.  Still we cannot wash away the brutality of the wedding.  It is a disgrace to agree to a second deal and then massacre the guests.  Both sides had something to give and both sides gave.  The Starks gave Edmure which is partial compensation for services already delivered.  I think the Starks owed more and should have given more for the second request for help from Walder.  But that is on Walder for not demanding more. 

Karstark was guilty of misconduct but Robb's and Cat's misconduct were even more serious.  Robb could have forgiven Karstark.  Robb was bad at ruling.  Catelyn was bad at being a team player.  The Starks were awful and they played badly. 

 

Murdering children POWs is way worse than breaking a marriage vow. But I’ll agree executing him was a mistake. He should’ve been imprisoned and eventually sent to the Wall once the war was over.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Those children POWs were active participants in the war.  They chose to squire.  They were not exactly innocents with clean hands.  I consider them part of the support crew who were helping the killers do their jobs better.  They were killers in training.  The innocents are the village children who were the victims of the Stark Rebellion.  The ones who lost families, food, and shelter because Robb chose to rebel. 

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

Murdering children POWs is way worse than breaking a marriage vow. But I’ll agree executing him was a mistake. He should’ve been imprisoned and eventually sent to the Wall once the war was over.

Forget the prisoners for a moment.

Murdering your own side’s soldiers is more than sufficient to merit execution.  It is the act of a traitor.

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Those children POWs were active participants in the war.  They chose to squire.  They were not exactly innocents with clean hands.  I consider them part of the support crew who were helping the killers do their jobs better.  They were killers in training.  The innocents are the village children who were the victims of the Stark Rebellion.  The ones who lost families, food, and shelter because Robb chose to rebel. 

Their lives were not Karstark’s to take.  Their surrender had been accepted by Karstark’s commanding officer.  Prisoners on the other side were put in danger by Karstark’s childish tantrum.

Edited February 20, 2023 by SeanF

[StarkTullies]

2 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The innocents are the village children who were the victims of the Stark Rebellion.  The ones who lost families, food, and shelter because Robb chose to rebel. 

Tywin Lannister initiated his Riverlands genocide before Robb Stark chose to rebel.  The Riverlands and Northern lords seceded and named Robb as their king after the war began... as a result of the war that Tywin Lannister began.

Which doesn't make Karstark murdering Lannister children any more justified.  They are not responsible for their despicable uncle (or their cousin Jaime, who is the one Karstark actually murdered them over).

Did some of the Northern soldiers commit atrocities in the war too?  Of course they did.  But in what is somewhat contrived, most of those acts were done by the eventual Stark betrayers: the Boltons (your namesake's closest allies) and the Karstarks (the guy you are defending).