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Robb's worst sin


The Gizzard of Oz
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4 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Unfortunately, quarantine can only do so much even with total enforcement in modern times, so one can imagine that it spread inevitably when someone infected entered the city -- and in their world, they do not have the concept of germs and do not recognize that carriers exist.

 

We saw the first direct reference to the pale mare having entered city walls here, and it has already had a marked impact by this point in ADwD:

From here he could see four lesser pyramids, the city's western walls, and the camps of the Yunkishmen by the shores of Slaver's Bay, where a thick column of greasy smoke twisted upward like some monstrous serpent. The Yunkishmen burning their dead, he realized. The pale mare is galloping through their siege camps. Despite all the queen had done, the sickness had spread, both within the city walls and without. Meereen's markets were closed, its streets empty. King Hizdahr had allowed the fighting pits to remain open, but the crowds were sparse. The Meereenese had even begun to shun the Temple of the Graces, reportedly.

The Queensguard, A Dance with Dragons

And we were given the sense that it was unavoidable even while we see see mention of Dany's attempts to separate the healthy and the sick, since it accomplished nothing:

I have no more help to give, Dany thought, despairing. The Astapori had no place to go. Thousands remained outside Meereen's thick walls—men and women and children, old men and little girls and newborn babes. Many were sick, most were starved, and all were doomed to die. Daenerys dare not open her gates to let them in. She had tried to do what she could for them. She had sent them healers, Blue Graces and spell-singers and barber-surgeons, but some of those had sickened as well, and none of their arts had slowed the galloping progression of the flux that had come on the pale mare. Separating the healthy from the sick had proved impractical as well. Her Stalwart Shields had tried, pulling husbands away from wives and children from their mothers, even as the Astapori wept and kicked and pelted them with stones. A few days later, the sick were dead and the healthy ones were sick. Dividing the one from the other had accomplished nothing.

Daenerys VI, A Dance with Dragons

There are more chapters, including Dany's, Barristan's, Tyrion's, and Quentyn's, that show the plague spreading through Mereen and through the Astapori refugees and Yunkai'i soldiers without alike.

 

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By the time of Barristan's TWoW sample chapter, it has become so rampant that people fear staying in the city and facing the plague more than facing the Yunkai'i seige, as you described. Just a progression from ADwD.

Out beyond the city walls, the distant thump of a trebuchet releasing could be heard. Dead men and body parts came spinning down out of the night. One crashed amongst the pit fighters, showering them with bits of bone and brain and flesh. Another bounced off the Chainmaker's weathered bronze head and tumbled down his arm to land with a wet splat at his feet. A swollen leg splashed in a puddle not three yards from where Selmy sat waiting on his queen's horse.

"The pale mare," murmured Tumco Lho. His voice was thick, his dark eyes shiny in his black face. Then he said something in the tongue of the Basilisk Isles that might have been a prayer.

He fears the pale mare more than he fears our foes, Ser Barristan realized. His other lads were frightened too. Brave as they might be, not one was blooded yet.

Barristan I, The Winds of Winter

What is unrealistic is the refugees reaching Meereen.  Most would have died within 20 miles of Astapor.

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What is unrealistic is the refugees reaching Meereen.  Most would have died within 20 miles of Astapor.

There are certain other peculiarities that suggest to me that the pale mare isn't completely analogous to real-world dysentery, but even if it was, it is just within the confines of suspension of disbelief. People can live for a surprising amount of time with the disease. (But, yes, it is almost unbelievable; though narrative should be serviced by logistics, especially when things don't have to be exactly the same as they are in our world.)

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On 2/20/2023 at 9:44 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

Bringing that awful show into the discussion does not really prove a point.  But fine, let us continue.  The situations are different.  Queen Daenerys is the ruler of the city.  She is Khaleesi, Azor Ahai, rightful Queen of Westeros, a Targaryen, and Mother of Dragons.  She has authority and privileges which Robb Stark does not have.  Daenerys rescued the slaves from a situation worse than death.  His life belonged to her.  Karstark's did not belong to Robb. 

This is a question of judgment more than authority.  Daenerys could afford the displeasure of the slaves.  Robb Stark could not afford to piss off the Karstarks.  Daenerys is more shrewd, more calculating, more intelligent.  Robb might be better on the battle field but Daenerys is the better ruler. 

That scene was created by the fertile minds of HBO.  It is irrelevant to the novels.  

Robb broke an oath to the Freys, the Freys get angry, Tywin makes an offer in return for service, the Freys delivered.  And probably delivered Robb's tarred head to the Red Keep.  

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9 minutes ago, James West said:

That scene was created by the fertile minds of HBO.  It is irrelevant to the novels.  

Robb broke an oath to the Freys, the Freys get angry, Tywin makes an offer in return for service, the Freys delivered.  And probably delivered Robb's tarred head to the Red Keep.  

I see it’s ‘your’ turn tonight, James. Don’t forget to stop by and quote ‘your mates’ n the Jon the Coldheart, Tully Madness, Jon Is likely to go insane and Robb’s worst sin threads. :cheers:

Edited by kissdbyfire
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14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I see it’s ‘your’ turn tonight, James. Don’t forget to stop by and quote ‘your mates’ n the Jon the Coldheart, Tully Madness, Jon Is likely to go insane and Robb’s worst sin threads. :cheers:

I wonder if they gather together and draw sticks to decide whose turn it is to do hate threads.

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I know everyone is entitled to their own view and the text is open to interpretation and all that, but do people really read the book and honestly conclude that Walder was justified, Jon was evil and Bowen was a martyr? Do people genuinely believe this even in the face of all the evidence to the contrary?

Edited by Craving Peaches
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6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I know everyone is entitled to their own view and the text is open to interpretation and all that, but do people really read the book and honestly conclude that Walder was justified, Jon was evil and Bowen was a martyr? Do people genuinely believe this even in the face of all the evidence to the contrary?

You forgot good and honourable Janos Slynt, and poor misunderstood Ramsay Bolton. :D

 

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On 2/17/2023 at 4:01 PM, Nathan Stark said:

So Robb should try to win the war by not winning any battles? Lol.

He did try. That's why he was fighting a war, to avenge Ned and get his sisters back. But the reality is that Robb cannot effect or change how the Lannisters treat Sansa. He had Jaime as a hostage, who was much too valuable to trade to anybody. 

I think Jaime would have been promptly executed and his head sent to Cersei and Tyrion. That's supposing the Lannisters saw fit to let it be known Sansa had died. Either way, Robb cannot effect what Joffrey or Ser Boros Blount does or does not do to his sister. It is unreasonable to expect him to.

The argument you are making, that Robb should let fear of Sansa's mistreatment at the hands of the Lannisters effect his military decisions and diplomacy is ridiculous.

Did I say that? What I meant is that even if Robb should have it on his mind that Sansa is in an unsafe position, keep tabs through their go-between Cleos, and have it known that he doesn't approve of what Joffrey did to Sansa, like threaten to turn Jaime over to the Karstarks should Sansa be beaten. But he didn't have the will to do so, and not having the will to do something harsh consistently blows up in people's faces, like Ned not wanting Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen to be killed by Robert leads to the downfall of his house, or Jaime freeing Tyrion and telling him the truth about Tysha leads to Tyrion killing Tywin.

Again, he might as well have cut her throat himself for all the regard he had for her.

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10 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

But he didn't have the will to do so, and not having the will to do something harsh consistently blows up in people's faces, like Ned not wanting Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen to be killed by Robert leads to the downfall of his house

Not only is this a fundamental misunderstanding of the book's themes, this is ignoring the actual text.

At the time, everyone rightfully considered the execution of Ned to be the dumbest possible political move, from Tywin "I'm going to raze the Riverlands because I love war crimes" Lannister to Cersei "my son is a flawless saint" Lannister. Not only was Ned's wife and son indubitably going to rally the North, everyone expected his sister-in-law to step in as well: two Great Houses, Wardens of the North and East, against one, Warden of the West, which had already made enemies of the Baratheons, Martells, and Tullys at minimum as well.

Furthermore, it was because Ned was a good and honorable man that people wanted to spare him, not least because it would reflect poorly on those who executed him. Even Varys was doing as much as he could to let him live out his life at the Wall, something he had no need nor obligation to attempt, because he admired him and knew that he would never break his word after taking his vows.

You might note that the Lannisters are widely despised by Westeros, no longer feared the moment Tywin died; and his children are going to be the downfall of his House and of each other, because of his abusive parenting and wrong (morally and practically) political lessons.

Meanwhile, the Starks are poised to eventually reclaim their ancestral home and rule of the North, and to end the series on a positive note. Cat and Robb are also dead now, but the others are all alive and will reunite to reform their home.

Mercy is never a mistake, and to save the lives of children is always the right thing to do. Ned died because he was immensely unlucky and (as Varys manipulated him into believing) to save his daughters, not because he tried to do the right thing. And his House will end up "winning" because they did things correctly, whereas House Lannister will "lose" thoroughly because they did nothing but wrong.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 2/20/2023 at 9:24 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

Robb Stark was dumb.  Robb had very little skill in politics.  He pissed off two important backers at the worst time possible. 

Robb was a dumbass.  And naive.  It is basic to know to keep your own men loyal.  He kicked his own legs out from under himself. 

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10 minutes ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Robb was a dumbass.  And naive.  It is basic to know to keep your own men loyal.  He kicked his own legs out from under himself. 

He was 15 my guy. He did pretty damn well for himself for someone so young. If he had a bit more maturity and experience he wouldn’t have fallen so easily into the Lannister, Frey, and Bolton trap.

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On 2/16/2023 at 7:40 PM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Robb Stark was the stronger party and punishing him was beyond the capabilities of the Freys.  An ambush like the red wedding was the only means the Freys had to punish Robb.  It was also the price requested by Lord Tywin before he allows the rebel lords Walder and Roose to win their way back to peace with King Joffrey.  Seen from this view, what Walder decided is perfectly understandable.  Roose had his own reason and even they can be justified. 

Bitchboy shit from Walder and Tywin. From their perspective, they had to get rid of Robb and that was really the only way to do it, makes sense to do the Red Wedding. From any other perspective, it was stupid as hell if you believe in the gods or having a good legacy after your death. That is what every single person involved will be remembered for: Tywin, Walder, Roose. Not the Reynes, not defeating Stannis (or losing miserably to Stannis), not...having 100 grandkids or whatever Walder would have been remembered for. No, breaking guestright after letting a tyrant king execute the Warden of the North for pointing out the bastard king was a bastard, and losing so badly to a 15-year-old kid that they had to kill him at a wedding. Absolute bitchboy shit on Walder and Tywin's parts, and, for someone who cares so much about oaths, you sure seem fine with letting Roose break his. 

On 3/19/2023 at 8:24 PM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Robb was a dumbass.  And naive.  It is basic to know to keep your own men loyal.  He kicked his own legs out from under himself. 

Yes, and he paid the price, what's the point? He got caught up in the politics of war, instead of fighting blow-for-blow with Tywin, he should have been more ruthless and let Karstark get away with murdering Tion and Willem, the Freys were literally in a marriage pact with the Lannisters, he should have massacred them and taken The Twins. He was also 15 years old, Walder is 100 something and this was Tywin's, like, fifth war or whatever. You absolve monsters from the heinousness of their murders and attack children for their naivity. 

On 2/16/2023 at 7:40 PM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Robb Stark's worst sin is not the murder of Rickard Karstark.  It was his betrayal of House Frey.  He broke his oath to the Freys because he wanted Jeyne Westerling.  He followed the calling of his heart instead of doing what he had sworn to do.  This is far from a minor sin.  Robb broke what is the equivalent of a contract and the other party is entitled to compensation.  The cheated party is also entitled to inflict Robb with punitive damages. 

"punitive damages"......."murdered at your uncle's wedding" this is some psychopathic justification for bad Frey behavior.

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By the way, standard compensation for breach of contract, then and now, was...damages, not getting to kill the contract breaker. Okay, in earlier Roman times if someone did not pay the debt you were allowed to keep him chained up in the basement and force him to work for you, but that clearly isn't the situation in Westeros, at least with regards to marriage pacts amongst nobles. If you want to take the line that Walder must 'avenge' the slight he suffered, well he should have done that in the open like a man. Nothing entitles him to slaughter guests at a reconciliatory wedding.

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1 hour ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

You absolve monsters from the heinousness of their murders and attack children for their naivity. 

Yep.  This about sums up half the threads on this forum.

I don't know why the "atrocities of the Targaryens" thread vaporized into non-existence, while this thread and others just like it linger on in perpetuity just to be "bumped" once a month after they finally fall off the first page.  Tully madness, Jon is an illegitimate bastard who is inferior and worthless because he isn't inbred like real Targaryens, and Arya Darkheart all just got revived again, I see.

Edited by StarkTullies
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11 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Yep.  This about sums up half the threads on this forum.

I don't know why the "atrocities of the Targaryens" thread vaporized into non-existence, while this thread and others just like it linger on in perpetuity just to be "bumped" once a month after they finally fall off the first page.  Tully madness, Jon is an illegitimate bastard who is inferior and worthless because he isn't inbred like real Targaryens, and Arya Darkheart all just got revived again, I see.

All by gizzard of oz

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