Jump to content

Robb's worst sin


The Gizzard of Oz
 Share

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

By the way, standard compensation for breach of contract, then and now, was...damages, not getting to kill the contract breaker. Okay, in earlier Roman times if someone did not pay the debt you were allowed to keep him chained up in the basement and force him to work for you, but that clearly isn't the situation in Westeros, at least with regards to marriage pacts amongst nobles. If you want to take the line that Walder must 'avenge' the slight he suffered, well he should have done that in the open like a man. Nothing entitles him to slaughter guests at a reconciliatory wedding.

If we see it in purely contractual terms then Robb entirely made good his breach of contract, by offering a lord paramount as husband.

And, not even the Code of Hammurabai treatsg the murder of 3,500 as a just response to breach of contract.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Yep.  This about sums up half the threads on this forum.

I don't know why the "atrocities of the Targaryens" thread vaporized into non-existence, while this thread and others just like it linger on in perpetuity just to be "bumped" once a month after they’d  finally fall off the first page.  Tully madness, Jon is an illegitimate bastard who is inferior and worthless because he isn't inbred like real Targaryens, and Arya Darkheart all just got revived again, I see.

The problem was the Targaryen thread was hijacked by criticism of the moderators.  The poster in question knows what he did, and why the moderators acted as they did.

Edited by SeanF
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rob did very well for a 15 year old. He was winning the battles, but his problems started and ended off of the battlefield. To me, clearly his worst mistake was Theon. He thought he could trust him and Theon, in spectacular fashion, betrayed him.

Additionally, I would not have executed Rickard Karstark. Right or wrong from an honor perspective. Terrible decision. 

Not that I'd characterize any of that as a sin though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Rob did very well for a 15 year old. He was winning the battles, but his problems started and ended off of the battlefield. To me, clearly his worst mistake was Theon. He thought he could trust him and Theon, in spectacular fashion, betrayed him.

I agree that the biggest mistake is losing "a ward". Hostages and prisoners are wards, and wards protect you, magically and physically, depending on the type of ward. ;)

Edited by sweetsunray
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Rob did very well for a 15 year old. He was winning the battles, but his problems started and ended off of the battlefield. To me, clearly his worst mistake was Theon. He thought he could trust him and Theon, in spectacular fashion, betrayed him.

Additionally, I would not have executed Rickard Karstark. Right or wrong from an honor perspective. Terrible decision. 

Not that I'd characterize any of that as a sin though.

The problem with *not* executing Karstark is that you licence every lord with a grudge to murder prisoners, and their guards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The problem with *not* executing Karstark is that you licence every lord with a grudge to murder prisoners, and their guards.

Karstark made it impossible for Robb not to execute him, really. He should have had him dragged in front of witnesses with a gag. Then he could have thrown him in a cell for judgment, and use Karstark for leverage to make his soldiers return. He still should have had him tried and executed, but not before securing his men's allegiance and Harrion swearing fealty.

Stannis makes sure none of the Karstark soldiers are aware of the castellan's and his sons' arrest, not before Horpe has secured the Karstark troops.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The problem with *not* executing Karstark is that you licence every lord with a grudge to murder prisoners, and their guards.

Doesn't matter.

It isn't like this is a regular occurrence where you have to stamp it out. This is a one off. 

You can still reprimand him.

But to execute a loyal lord and relative, who also has a fairly substantial amount of troops deployed with your army is both a strategic and tactical mistake. It weakened his army and moral while in hostile territory during a war. 

Self inflicted wound.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Karstark made it impossible for Robb not to execute him, really.

This exactly. If Karstark had made a grovelling apology, claimed that he regretted his actions but that honour had demanded it, and offered penance, that would have opened the door for Robb to forgive him.

Instead he said "I did nothing wrong and I'd do it again, your mother is a bitch, you don't have the guts to punish me, you loser; oh what a crappy king you are and no mistake" and at that point the only way Robb can assert his authority for the benefit of the rest of his army is to take his head.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Robb should have sent Karstark to the Wall...

I agree. I think it's a bit of an oversight from GRRM probably. I think if Robb had offered to send Karstark to the Wall, Karstark would have been too proud to accept. So then Robb has the same dilemma to kill him or not. But it would have been nice to actually see Robb offer and to see Karstark refuse before Robb goes on to do what he ultimately does. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With Karstark, Robb has no good choices.  He certainly cannot tolerate the murder of prisoners, and their guards, or be seen to.  But at be the same time he loses Karstark's troop (though they may have been lost already) and possibly other allies.  I happen to think he did the right thing, but I can understand the case for mercy as well.

With respect to Sansa, he did what he could and had no reason to fear for her safety.  Joffrey's beatings were done in private, with the exception of the incident Tyrion interrupted, and the injuries were to her body and arms, which could be hidden with clothing.

Jaime's imprisonment probably helped as well.  During the riot Tyrion was frantic with worry when she went missing; he was worried that if anything happened to her retaliation would be visited on Jaime.  Essentially, short of winning, there wasn't much he could do for her.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course Robb had reasonable choices with Karstark. He could have forgiven Karstark for acting out of emotion. Robb and Cat acted out of emotion. No question, Robb breaking his holy oath to Walder did more harm to his cause,  more than Karstark. Cat’s disobedience and betrayal did more damage to them than Karstark. No excuse for Robb other than being ignorant and stupid.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Of course Robb had reasonable choices with Karstark. He could have forgiven Karstark for acting out of emotion. Robb and Cat acted out of emotion. No question, Robb breaking his holy oath to Walder did more harm to his cause,  more than Karstark. Cat’s disobedience and betrayal did more damage to them than Karstark. No excuse for Robb other than being ignorant and stupid.  

Neither Robb nor Cat murdered their own soldiers.

And Robb is not a vassal who gives oaths to Walder Frey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/21/2023 at 11:56 AM, Alester Florent said:

This exactly. If Karstark had made a grovelling apology, claimed that he regretted his actions but that honour had demanded it, and offered penance, that would have opened the door for Robb to forgive him.

Instead he said "I did nothing wrong and I'd do it again, your mother is a bitch, you don't have the guts to punish me, you loser; oh what a crappy king you are and no mistake" and at that point the only way Robb can assert his authority for the benefit of the rest of his army is to take his head.

Nah that dude was a dead man walking, so he just kinda screamed fuck the world as he died 

On 3/21/2023 at 10:00 AM, Northern Sword said:

But to execute a loyal lord and relative, who also has a fairly substantial amount of troops deployed with your army is both a strategic and tactical mistake. It weakened his army and moral while in hostile territory during a war. 

Self inflicted wound.

I agree, and in fact Robb agreed. But kingdoms worth more then a couple wounds.

So you got a typo in your post, it's morale with an e. But moral is actually what came into play here. Like Dany questioning why Robert called himself a king when he's clearly not a "true king" is what Robb is playing on here. The Young Wolf is the good guy, that means he has to wash his hands 100% of this travesty, stamp it out like you say to make sure nobody associates the Young Wolf with the wrong.

On 3/21/2023 at 10:01 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Robb should have sent Karstark to the Wall...

Oh he'd totally win the election. Probably show up in like the third vote and just, near unanimous. After all most things Sam campaigned about Jon could be associated with Karstsark as well.

That'd be unfortunate, one because anybody but Jon is unfortunate but also poor Alys. I doubt her wonderful father would have done right by her

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Of course Robb had reasonable choices with Karstark. He could have forgiven Karstark for acting out of emotion. Robb and Cat acted out of emotion. No question, Robb breaking his holy oath to Walder did more harm to his cause,  more than Karstark. Cat’s disobedience and betrayal did more damage to them than Karstark. No excuse for Robb other than being ignorant and stupid.  

He should not have forgiven Catelyn, and he should not have forgiven Karstark.

Feudal system is all about honor. If you forgive people who stab you in the back, you just open yourself to more stabbings. Argument could be made that he should not have executed Karstark, but forgiveness? No way. I'd say that he should have taken Karstark as a hostage in exchange for his sons and their troops staying with the army. They leave? Old Karstark's head goes off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nah that dude was a dead man walking, so he just kinda screamed fuck the world as he died 

I agree, and in fact Robb agreed. But kingdoms worth more then a couple wounds.

So you got a typo in your post, it's morale with an e. But moral is actually what came into play here. Like Dany questioning why Robert called himself a king when he's clearly not a "true king" is what Robb is playing on here. The Young Wolf is the good guy, that means he has to wash his hands 100% of this travesty, stamp it out like you say to make sure nobody associates the Young Wolf with the wrong.

Oh he'd totally win the election. Probably show up in like the third vote and just, near unanimous. After all most things Sam campaigned about Jon could be associated with Karstsark as well.

That'd be unfortunate, one because anybody but Jon is unfortunate but also poor Alys. I doubt her wonderful father would have done right by her

Damn spelling mistake, Aotu correcct has ruined me. Thanks for pointing it out... lol.

This is the same reason Ned is Dead. Honour, while important will be your downfall in the game of thrones if followed rigidly. Just like everything else. There has to be a logical middle ground. Discipline also doesn't have to mean execution. Good guy or bad guy, you play to win. 

In Rob's case, he didn't even want to be a King. He was proclaimed by his lords. Aerys II Targaryen was a true king. So what does a "True King" even mean. For example, think of what being a True King meant to say Aegon the Conqueror, I'm guessing it is far different then what it would have meant to Jaehaerys the Conciliator. Being a true king, is what you determine it is for yourself. Or at least by what you need to accomplish. 

I do get the point you are making of him living up to his own(Neds) idea of what a true and honourable king should be. This is a self imposed Ideal and led to both of their deaths. 

He easily could have washed his hands by sending him to the wall. He was in a precarious position and chose the wrong course of action imo. Not that this act was the make it or break it tipping point. But still.

Also, I'm Canadian, we spell Honour like the Brits, not Honor like the Americans, just incase you thought it was a spelling mistake and were going to point it out. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Damn spelling mistake, Aotu correcct has ruined me. Thanks for pointing it out... lol.

Lol, um...

17 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Also, I'm Canadian, we spell Honour like the Brits, not Honor like the Americans, just incase you thought it was a spelling mistake and were going to point it out. :D

Lol sorry for acting like the spelling police, it just fit nicely into what I wanted to get across 

17 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

This is the same reason Ned is Dead. Honour, while important will be your downfall in the game of thrones if followed rigidly. Just like everything else. There has to be a logical middle ground. Discipline also doesn't have to mean execution. Good guy or bad guy, you play to win. 

In Rob's case, he didn't even want to be a King. He was proclaimed by his lords. Aerys II Targaryen was a true king. So what does a "True King" even mean. For example, think of what being a True King meant to say Aegon the Conqueror, I'm guessing it is far different then what it would have meant to Jaehaerys the Conciliator. Being a true king, is what you determine it is for yourself. Or at least by what you need to accomplish. 

I do get the point you are making of him living up to his own(Neds) idea of what a true and honourable king should be. This is a self imposed Ideal and led to both of their deaths. 

He easily could have washed his hands by sending him to the wall. He was in a precarious position and chose the wrong course of action imo. Not that this act was the make it or break it tipping point. But still.

So I'm not really a fan of the Ned, I kinda see dishonor when deciding to bribe Janos as the final nail to defeat him. But also some stupidity and lethargy. 

Anyway, I am a fan of what Ned taught his kids however. Especially with Robb. And I agree it's all about honor 

Quote

"In battle I might have slain Tion and Willem myself, but this was no battle. They were asleep in their beds, naked and unarmed, in a cell where I put them. Rickard Karstark killed more than a Frey and a Lannister. He killed my honor. I shall deal with him at dawn."

So after the RW the Young Wolf became the martyr of all martyrs, but even without his death I still think Robb stood taller then the rest. He's the good guy and when your king is the good guy, idk, I feel like morality may strengthen his kingdom.

I actually do think, aside from getting murdered of whatever, this was the biggest downfall of Robbs campaign, the breaking and tipping point (

Quote

"Lord Umber," said Robb, "this one was only the watcher. Hang him last, so he may watch the others die. Mother, Uncle, with me, if you please." He turned away as the Greatjon's men closed upon the prisoners and drove them from the hall at spearpoint. Outside the thunder crashed and boomed, so loud it sounded as if the castle were coming down about their ears. Is this the sound of a kingdom falling? Catelyn wondered.

)

Anyways, in real life I'm against capital punishment and even usually bring that mindset with me to asoiaf. Like I'm not even a fan of Jon killing Slynt, and that dude sucked! But I was a huge fan of him saving Ygritte, which he did because of Ned's teachings (if not practice)

Quote

It was hard to put into words. "My father never used a headsman. He said he owed it to men he killed to look into their eyes and hear their last words. And when I looked into Ygritte's eyes, I . . ." Jon stared down at his hands helplessly. "I know she was an enemy, but there was no evil in her."

Was this the correct move? It resulted in the death of Haflhands entire crew, save a Snow, so politically short term it was awful. Long term? Jon saves the realm.

Here in the short, Robb loses a large portion of his elite veterans as he plans on liberating the north. Pretty awful. Long term? The late king was about honor and justice.

So again to reiterate, the legacy of the Young Wolf will skyrocket with the RW. The loyalty that's still prevalent in the North and Riverlands are effects of that, but I do still think that the Young Wolf's actual life and rulings, just in the face of evil, contributes a lot to his a posthumous loyalty. Which is great for the war effort.

(Ps. 100% agree that being a "true" whatever is all personal)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol, um...

Lol sorry for acting like the spelling police, it just fit nicely into what I wanted to get across 

So I'm not really a fan of the Ned, I kinda see dishonor when deciding to bribe Janos as the final nail to defeat him. But also some stupidity and lethargy. 

Anyway, I am a fan of what Ned taught his kids however. Especially with Robb. And I agree it's all about honor 

So after the RW the Young Wolf became the martyr of all martyrs, but even without his death I still think Robb stood taller then the rest. He's the good guy and when your king is the good guy, idk, I feel like morality may strengthen his kingdom.

I actually do think, aside from getting murdered of whatever, this was the biggest downfall of Robbs campaign, the breaking and tipping point (

)

Anyways, in real life I'm against capital punishment and even usually bring that mindset with me to asoiaf. Like I'm not even a fan of Jon killing Slynt, and that dude sucked! But I was a huge fan of him saving Ygritte, which he did because of Ned's teachings (if not practice)

Was this the correct move? It resulted in the death of Haflhands entire crew, save a Snow, so politically short term it was awful. Long term? Jon saves the realm.

Here in the short, Robb loses a large portion of his elite veterans as he plans on liberating the north. Pretty awful. Long term? The late king was about honor and justice.

So again to reiterate, the legacy of the Young Wolf will skyrocket with the RW. The loyalty that's still prevalent in the North and Riverlands are effects of that, but I do still think that the Young Wolf's actual life and rulings, just in the face of evil, contributes a lot to his a posthumous loyalty. Which is great for the war effort.

(Ps. 100% agree that being a "true" whatever is all personal)

I think Robb would’ve been an excellent KitN had he been allowed to actually rule instead of having to fight. He never got the chance however.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...