Robb's worst sin

[Darth Sidious]

Robb and the Starks made a deal sealed with an oath. The Freys carried their part. That idiot Robb Stark chose not to pay up.  

[Craving Peaches]

Robb's only sin is being a Stark in your eyes. Just admit it rather than trying to pretend Walder and Ramsay are good people. Admit you are biased against him because he's a Stark.

[Northern Sword]

On 3/25/2023 at 9:03 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Lol, um...

Lol sorry for acting like the spelling police, it just fit nicely into what I wanted to get across 

So I'm not really a fan of the Ned, I kinda see dishonor when deciding to bribe Janos as the final nail to defeat him. But also some stupidity and lethargy. 

Anyway, I am a fan of what Ned taught his kids however. Especially with Robb. And I agree it's all about honor 

So after the RW the Young Wolf became the martyr of all martyrs, but even without his death I still think Robb stood taller then the rest. He's the good guy and when your king is the good guy, idk, I feel like morality may strengthen his kingdom.

I actually do think, aside from getting murdered of whatever, this was the biggest downfall of Robbs campaign, the breaking and tipping point (

)

Anyways, in real life I'm against capital punishment and even usually bring that mindset with me to asoiaf. Like I'm not even a fan of Jon killing Slynt, and that dude sucked! But I was a huge fan of him saving Ygritte, which he did because of Ned's teachings (if not practice)

Was this the correct move? It resulted in the death of Haflhands entire crew, save a Snow, so politically short term it was awful. Long term? Jon saves the realm.

Here in the short, Robb loses a large portion of his elite veterans as he plans on liberating the north. Pretty awful. Long term? The late king was about honor and justice.

So again to reiterate, the legacy of the Young Wolf will skyrocket with the RW. The loyalty that's still prevalent in the North and Riverlands are effects of that, but I do still think that the Young Wolf's actual life and rulings, just in the face of evil, contributes a lot to his a posthumous loyalty. Which is great for the war effort.

(Ps. 100% agree that being a "true" whatever is all personal)

I respect Ned. Always liked his honourable ways. Yet, he was limited in his understanding of politics. If he had stayed in the north as a Lord Paramount, all would have been well. But, he was not well suited for Kings Landing and the Game of Thrones.  He could not adapt. His honour got in the way. It restricted his movement and choices. Which ultimately led to his death. Robb, was from the same mold, which led to the same result. 

I personally don't see Robb's legacy being tarnished if he had done the "smart thing" in certain situations, even if slightly less honourable. Situational awareness never hurt anyone. But lack of situational awareness led to his and his Dads death.

I basically see it as: there is the way you want it to be, and then the way it is. It is dangerous to mix those up. 

[kissdbyfire]

Robb’s worst sin is not his fault at all since it is only to be a fictional character that has to be judged by people using the dumbest possible arguments. 

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

I respect Ned. Always liked his honourable ways.

A few times, especially in relation to his contemporaries, I admired the hell outta Ned's honor, but I don't think he ever earned my respect, just detestation.

4 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

If he had stayed in the north as a Lord Paramount, all would have been well

Not really tho. Cat said to decline Sansas hand would mean mistrust and possible war. Better then what happens but not good.

4 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

But, he was not well suited for Kings Landing and the Game of Thrones.  He could not adapt. His honour got in the way. It restricted his movement and choices. Which ultimately led to his death. Robb, was from the same mold, which led to the same result. 

Cersei just outplayed him. She did have home field advantage and why Ned decided in the bottom of the ninth to bring in Petyr I certainly don't understand as well. 

But when Cersei was alluding to the weight of his honor she was speaking in past tense as much as present. Take the throne, sit and rule and he won't have at look at the likes of Littlefinger or Varys for relief. He won't have to ask Cersei pretty please to go to her summer cottage on the behalf of Robert the dyings wrath. King Ned would have his own wrath. Is refusing to usurp your besties govt honorable? Yea it is, but it's also stupid and lazy.

Robb was murdered. Walder pretended to get his feelings hurt but in actuallity Ramsay changed the outlook of the north and this caused Walder and eventually his father to murder Robb. The case can be made, I disagree with, that Ned died for his honor but I don't see how Robb can enter in that discussion.

4 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

I personally don't see Robb's legacy being tarnished if he had done the "smart thing" in certain situations, even if slightly less honourable.

Yea your probably right. But since like Karstsark, he was was a dead man walking, it's nice he went out with his honor still brightly polished (if you ignore Freys feelings, which we should lol, cuz engagements end all the time, it's not that dishonorable)

4 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

Situational awareness never hurt anyone. But lack of situational awareness led to his and his Dads death.

You know to a degree. Ned stormed into the throne room with hardly one familiar face, Robb went over for the weekend to see his uncle get married. Should Balon have been more aware? I guess, but how aware should he be of crossing his neighborhood bridge?

4 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

I basically see it as: there is the way you want it to be, and then the way it is. It is dangerous to mix those up.

To me the Young Wolf is like an idea. One free of KL and it's faith influence but also one of justice and heroism. And his successor, Sansa or Jon or whomever, will utilize that and Robbs war will always be thought of as the good fight and the honorable one.

Now regarding Sansa or Jon or whomever, I agree with you lol. Be practical.

Edited March 27 by Hugorfonics

[James West]

On 2/16/2023 at 10:40 PM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Robb Stark's worst sin is not the murder of Rickard Karstark.  It was his betrayal of House Frey.  He broke his oath to the Freys because he wanted Jeyne Westerling.  He followed the calling of his heart instead of doing what he had sworn to do.  This is far from a minor sin.  Robb broke what is the equivalent of a contract and the other party is entitled to compensation.  The cheated party is also entitled to inflict Robb with punitive damages. 

https://slate.com/business/2013/06/game-of-thrones-economics-red-wedding-robb-stark-and-breach-of-trust-in-marriage-alliances.html

 

Robb Stark was the stronger party and punishing him was beyond the capabilities of the Freys.  An ambush like the red wedding was the only means the Freys had to punish Robb.  It was also the price requested by Lord Tywin before he allows the rebel lords Walder and Roose to win their way back to peace with King Joffrey.  Seen from this view, what Walder decided is perfectly understandable.  Roose had his own reason and even they can be justified. 

The Starks put the Freys in a very difficult situation.  I can understand Walder wanting to avoid getting the same thing the Goodbrooks got from Hoster Tully.  The Freys were forced to pick a side.  They honored the pact with the Starks.  The Starks did not. 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, James West said:

The Starks put the Freys in a very difficult situation.  I can understand Walder wanting to avoid getting the same thing the Goodbrooks got from Hoster Tully.  The Freys were forced to pick a side.  They honored the pact with the Starks.  The Starks did not. 

I'm beginning to wonder if all the posts of this type are being generated by Chat GPT.

[sifth]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'm beginning to wonder if all the posts of this type are being generated by Chat GPT.

You're not the only one.

[Craving Peaches]

52 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'm beginning to wonder if all the posts of this type are being generated by Chat GPT.

Guys, I think I've figured out the secret!

The [Insert Good People Here] are worse than [Insert Bad People here] because they don't like the Targaryens. Therefore [Insert Bad People Here] are good because they oppose [Insert Good People Here]. This makes [Insert Good People Here] evil.

[sifth]

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Guys, I think I've figured out the secret!

The [Insert Good People Here] are worse than [Insert Bad People here] because they don't like the Targaryens. Therefore [Insert Bad People Here] are good because they oppose [Insert Good People Here]. This makes [Insert Good People Here] evil.

Dam it man, I think you cracked the code.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

I'm beginning to wonder if all the posts of this type are being generated by Chat GPT.

Chat GPT is far too smart for this shit. 

[Rondo]

The wedding happened because Lord Walder and Roose needed to prove themselves to Tywin Lannister before they can be pardoned for the rebellion.  It was the only way those two could deliver a win against the Starks.  Walder turned his back on Robb in the first place because the crime referred to on this section by gizzard of Oz as the sin is a broken oath.  Robb made many bad choices but it was the breaking of an oath that got him, his direwolf, and his bannermen killed.  

[GZ Bloodraven]

2 hours ago, Rondo said:

The wedding happened because Lord Walder and Roose needed to prove themselves to Tywin Lannister before they can be pardoned for the rebellion.  It was the only way those two could deliver a win against the Starks.  Walder turned his back on Robb in the first place because the crime referred to on this section by gizzard of Oz as the sin is a broken oath.  Robb made many bad choices but it was the breaking of an oath that got him, his direwolf, and his bannermen killed.  

But that doesn't give Walder the justification to break guest right. 

[SeanF]

19 hours ago, Rondo said:

The wedding happened because Lord Walder and Roose needed to prove themselves to Tywin Lannister before they can be pardoned for the rebellion.  It was the only way those two could deliver a win against the Starks.  Walder turned his back on Robb in the first place because the crime referred to on this section by gizzard of Oz as the sin is a broken oath.  Robb made many bad choices but it was the breaking of an oath that got him, his direwolf, and his bannermen killed.  

A word to the wise.  Mass murderers, rapists, people who hunt women for sport, and flayers are not the heroes of this tale.

[Craving Peaches]

11 hours ago, SeanF said:

Mass murderers, rapists, people who hunt women for sport, and flayers are not the heroes of this tale.

Unless they oppose the St*rks of course, then we should be lining up to present them with medals.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Robb was an immature idiot who broke his oath for love. Unforgivable given the seriousness of this particular alliance and pact. 

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Unforgivable

Cough cough... breaking guest right.

[Rondo]

23 hours ago, SeanF said:

A word to the wise.  Mass murderers, rapists, people who hunt women for sport, and flayers are not the heroes of this tale.

Ramsay is not a hero.  Neither is a lord commander who betrayed the Order, his sworn brothers, and Westeros for his little sister.  So, yes, Ramsay and Jon are not heroes.  

[Rondo]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:49 AM, GZ Bloodraven said:

But that doesn't give Walder the justification to break guest right. 

Robb was not justified to break his oath to Walder.  

Breaking guest rights is a serious offense.  Breaking an oath is just as bad an offense.  

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Ramsay is not a hero.  Neither is a lord commander who betrayed the Order, his sworn brothers, and Westeros for his little sister.  So, yes, Ramsay and Jon are not heroes.  

Rescuing innocents from murder is a lot more heroic than perpetrating murder of innocents.

You appear to struggle with that concept.