Is Walder Frey an Idiot?

[astarkchoice]

26 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And ironically Tywin did far more damage to his house and its future that Tytos ever did. At least Tytos did a far better job with his chidren than Tywin did, and the worst damage he did was a damaged reputation. 

Thats a huge stretch man for all his faults

Tywin saved his house when vassals were mocking them and openly borrowing large sums without repayment,  open kidnapping of family   and then open rebellion.

Was a sucessful hand for decades  insnspite of a lunatic king and gotten his family into the robert dynasty royal family with minimal effort  then survived the wot5k  with a position seemingly untouchable.

His failures as a parent  are many though  .....mainly in not recognisng tyrion is totaly a mini him!

[Corvo the Crow]

22 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Nope if hed seen tyrions value the lannsiters would still be feared and respected  or if even if hed gottan jamie outta the kg and made him wake the f up...either son could have easily carried that level of control, fear , respect etc on

Nope. Tyrion isn't like Tywin. He may yet become like him but only because how Tywin treated him. If Tywin had treated him kindly then it would be the exact opposite of what you suggest. Tywin himself is the result of his own father, if his father had not been the laughing stock of the west, he wouldn't have been such a monster. As for Jaime, he is dumb.

[astarkchoice]

12 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Nope. Tyrion isn't like Tywin. He may yet become like him but only because how Tywin treated him. If Tywin had treated him kindly then it would be the exact opposite of what you suggest. Tywin himself is the result of his own father, if his father had not been the laughing stock of the west, he wouldn't have been such a monster. As for Jaime, he is dumb.

Hes his mini me and neither of them can see it ...thats the fantastic  tragedy  grmm wrote between these 2 characters 

Jamie is deluded hes not dumb..smart people can do stupid shit for love or false notions of what people expect of them...stripped of his exceptional fighting skill and family name hes started to think and adapt for himself....we see quickly he learns to bluff, reorganises the kingsguard into an efficent machine  and resolved the riverrun siege in short spectacular fashion ...using his rep ,  a former burden of honourless oathbreaker as a weapon!!!

 

With tyrion + tywin the parallels  as hands are so cleverly written its awesome grmm work

Both use the same hidden tunnel to see hookers(even the same hooker eventualy)  Both  earnestly try to save their  realm from ruin while both dealing with mad kings!  Both are hated and mocked for it! Both rely on their own personal monsters (shagga and the vale boys  +  bronn or loch , hound and moutain) to get shit done. 

Edited February 20 by astarkchoice

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

48 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Thats a huge stretch man for all his faults

Tywin saved his house when vassals were mocking them and openly borrowing large sums without repayment,  open kidnapping of family   and then open rebellion.

Was a sucessful hand for decades  insnspite of a lunatic king and gotten his family into the robert dynasty royal family with minimal effort  then survived the wot5k  with a position seemingly untouchable.

His failures as a parent  are many though  .....mainly in not recognisng tyrion is totaly a mini him!

That's not a stretch at all, Tywin planted the seeds of his house downfall with the way he parented and treated and abused his children, largely turning Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion in the screwed up individuals they would become, alienating Tyrion until his son snapped and killed him before swearing revenge on his family, him refusing to see and perhaps allowing the incest between Jaime and Cersei with the disastrous consequences we know, and creating many deadly enemies for his family with his overuse of petty and radical atrocities and violence, especially the sack of King's Landing and the Red Wedding, who are only waiting the right time to get revenge.

The position that Tywin left for his family is a castle of cards about to crumble. 

[astarkchoice]

6 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

That's not a stretch at all, Tywin planted the seeds of his house downfall with the way he parented and treated and abused his children, largely turning Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion in the screwed up individuals they would become, alienating Tyrion until his son snapped and killed him before swearing revenge on his family, him refusing to see and perhaps allowing the incest between Jaime and Cersei with the disastrous consequences we know, and creating many deadly enemies for his family with his overuse of petty and radical atrocities and violence, especially the sack of King's Landing and the Red Wedding, who are only waiting the right time to get revenge.

The position that Tywin left for his family is a castle of cards about to crumble. 

His parenting was awful yes esp with tyrion, jamie he did semi ok with its cersei that led him astray!  The  rains of castermere and sack of KL left them the solid  undisputed lords of westerlands then tied into roberts regime for decades, the red wedding left left them  in arguably the 2nd strongest position of a dynasty set to last decades at least. Its a series of lafgely unpredictable (some  incredible ) events that have brought them low.....i mean shit even with cerseis walk of shame(and all the disasters beforehand) , tyrion escaped and tywin dead  it seemed kevan was seemngly gonna  still easily right the ship and solidify the tyrell/lannister dynasty..... until varys decided his crossbow had too many bolts!

[Bendric Dayne]

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

This is a feudal setting man power matters more than likeability , do you think the people loved  the targs roasting their family with their unfair advantage of dragons loved  then bending the knee?  Or any bannerman beaten down to accept vassal status by other lords? The whole thing if a frigging pyramid scheme of fear and power !  Hence thankfully we innmodern times have moved away from it

now admitedly Some lords have the benefit of their bannerment genuinely likeing them but for most they wont have that relationship...its turn up when i call or il burn you out of your keep!

Agreed. People in Westeros respect power. They don't follow their liege lords because they like them necessarily, but because they respect them and their power. No one respects the Freys and no one sees them as powerful. The Red Wedding was not a display of power, but a display of cowardice. They could not best their opponent on the battlefield so they lured them into a false sense of security, got them drunk, and murdered them all under their own roof. To be powerful is to defeat your enemy in the battlefield, and that is respected in Westeros. Those who lose don't like it, but they accept and respect that they were beaten by a stronger and more powerful opponent. They do not accept or respect the breaking of guest right. 

 

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

The red wedding was a shitty taboo trick but lets be honest if its your family hearing they died in battle wont soften or worsen  the impact by a whole lot ....will the westerlands lords forget robbs sneaky (sometimes magic assisted)  ambushes killing their sons ?  Or stormlords forget their men burning in the blackwater? Nope but like all feudal life itl pass 

I do not expect them to forget, but it is in no ways the same as the Red Wedding. Those were tactics used to win battles. They can be considered ruthless sure, but those were deaths in battles nonetheless. I don't think you understand just how important and sacred guest right is to the people of Westeros. If you did you would know how big the difference here is. People accept that brutal deaths are a part of war. They don't accept the breaking of guest right. Just look at the story of the Rat Cook which highlights the importance of guest right. The host kills the guest's sons and cooks them into a pie and feeds them to him, so the gods punish him and turn him into a rat who will eat its sons for the rest of eternity, not because he killed the guest's sons or because he then fed them to him, but because he broke guest right. So the Red Wedding isn't something that will "just pass", everyone will remember for many generations to come because what happened there is considered to be an absolute atrocity not comparable to casualties of war, or the men who burned in the Blackwater. 

 

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

The alliances built meant it seemed for any reasonable pov that  they were the strongest house in the riverlands, married into the new lannister reach superpower and the north is now rooses with his new lannister manderly dustin alliance.

Again, most of those alliances have nothing tangible holding them to the Freys and Boltons. What they have is a dead relative killed by the Boltons and Freys. They are currently being forced to this alliance, but it is obvious that they would take the first chance to betray it. It should be obvious to Walder as well. If he thinks that marriages secure these alliances, then he should be trying to make marriages with the Mormonts, and Glovers, and Umbers etc. Marriages to the Manderlys theoretically only secure his alliance to the Manderlys, it does not account for all the other houses he has killed members of who are technically allied with him. He should know that he cannot count on those alliances because they clearly would rather see them dead, and there isn't really anything holding them together. The Freys and Boltons are not powerful enough to hold that alliance together, they've murdered family members and haven't really done anything to make any house apart from the Manderlys want to stay. And even with three marriages, the Manderlys are still not appeased and still want revenge. Sure Walder can't predict that, but he can't really be surprised by it either, those marriages were basically forced into the Manderlys so they aren't an indication of well being between those two houses. 

[astarkchoice]

11 hours ago, Bendric Dayne said:

Agreed. People in Westeros respect power. They don't follow their liege lords because they like them necessarily, but because they respect them and their power. No one respects the Freys and no one sees them as powerful. The Red Wedding was not a display of power, but a display of cowardice. They could not best their opponent on the battlefield so they lured them into a false sense of security, got them drunk, and murdered them all under their own roof. To be powerful is to defeat your enemy in the battlefield, and that is respected in Westeros. Those who lose don't like it, but they accept and respect that they were beaten by a stronger and more powerful opponent. They do not accept or respect the breaking of guest right. 

 

I do not expect them to forget, but it is in no ways the same as the Red Wedding. Those were tactics used to win battles. They can be considered ruthless sure, but those were deaths in battles nonetheless. I don't think you understand just how important and sacred guest right is to the people of Westeros. If you did you would know how big the difference here is. People accept that brutal deaths are a part of war. They don't accept the breaking of guest right. Just look at the story of the Rat Cook which highlights the importance of guest right. The host kills the guest's sons and cooks them into a pie and feeds them to him, so the gods punish him and turn him into a rat who will eat its sons for the rest of eternity, not because he killed the guest's sons or because he then fed them to him, but because he broke guest right. So the Red Wedding isn't something that will "just pass", everyone will remember for many generations to come because what happened there is considered to be an absolute atrocity not comparable to casualties of war, or the men who burned in the Blackwater. 

 

Again, most of those alliances have nothing tangible holding them to the Freys and Boltons. What they have is a dead relative killed by the Boltons and Freys. They are currently being forced to this alliance, but it is obvious that they would take the first chance to betray it. It should be obvious to Walder as well. If he thinks that marriages secure these alliances, then he should be trying to make marriages with the Mormonts, and Glovers, and Umbers etc. Marriages to the Manderlys theoretically only secure his alliance to the Manderlys, it does not account for all the other houses he has killed members of who are technically allied with him. He should know that he cannot count on those alliances because they clearly would rather see them dead, and there isn't really anything holding them together. The Freys and Boltons are not powerful enough to hold that alliance together, they've murdered family members and haven't really done anything to make any house apart from the Manderlys want to stay. And even with three marriages, the Manderlys are still not appeased and still want revenge. Sure Walder can't predict that, but he can't really be surprised by it either, those marriages were basically forced into the Manderlys so they aren't an indication of well being between those two houses. 

No again dude it HAS gained them actual tangible power  not ill defined bad feelings but actual land , titles etc. Note any fallout they now see is due to various sets of incredible circumstance and even then any resistance is all hidden behind closed doors. They now command all the formerly tully land men , incomes and hold riverrun ...that alone is a substantial leap in power before we even get to so many  the next gen of lannisters  will all have frey brides etc

 

Itl be remembered like castermere was but overall their position is now wedded (literaly ) to the new royal regime and the north.

 

Every vassal has been beaten with realitives killed into submission to their lords at some point ....thats feudalism! As for nothing tangible its literaly wedded to the new regimes.

The north you keep mentioning has 2 houses  that literaly  took  part im the red-wedding (bolton and karstark)  roose has had seemingly lady dustin on board (who brings her house and seemingly  her dads house) ramsay has taken hornwood for the boltons and arranged for a large part of whats left of the stark troops (and direct stark vassals) to be slaughtered ourside winterfell while his dad made sure stark loyalists took heavy losses pre red wedding. The glovers were ironborn hostages , winterfell would slowly regain itss strengh but only  to become house lannister of winterfell with tyrion and lady sansa lannister !!!!  thus when you look at it there little left for any organised resistance ....again itd be hard for anyone go predict the secret badassary of lord manderly (or stannis comming north)  by his own admission the freys  , 3 marriages if allowed to bloom in court filled with enemy spies would tie them with innocent kids to the freys and his own maester is in cahoots 

Edited February 21 by astarkchoice

[Bendric Dayne]

14 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

No again dude it HAS gained them actual tangible power  not ill defined bad feelings but actual land , titles etc. Note any fallout they now see is due to various sets of incredible circumstance and even then any resistance is all hidden behind closed doors. They now command all the formerly tully land men , incomes and hold riverrun ...that alone is a substantial leap in power before we even get to so many  the next gen of lannisters  will all have frey brides etc

 

Itl be remembered like castermere was but overall their position is now wedded (literaly ) to the new royal regime and the north.

 

Every vassal has been beaten with realitives killed into submission to their lords at some point ....thats feudalism! As for nothing tangible its literaly wedded to the new regimes.

The north you keep mentioning has 2 houses  that literaly  took  part im the red-wedding (bolton and karstark)  roose has had seemingly lady dustin on board (who brings her house and seemingly  her dads house) ramsay has taken hornwood for the boltons and arranged for a large part of whats left of the stark troops (and direct stark vassals) to be slaughtered ourside winterfell while his dad made sure stark loyalists took heavy losses pre red wedding. The glovers were ironborn hostages , winterfell would slowly regain itss strengh but only  to become house lannister of winterfell with tyrion and lady sansa lannister !!!!  thus when you look at it there little left for any organised resistance ....again itd be hard for anyone go predict the secret badassary of lord manderly (or stannis comming north)  by his own admission the freys  , 3 marriages if allowed to bloom in court filled with enemy spies would tie them with innocent kids to the freys and his own maester is in cahoots 

I'm not saying that he does not have tangible power, I'm saying he has no tangible connections to most of his new allies. He's married into the Manderlys and Boltons and Lannisters; that's a tangible connection to them, but there's dozens of river lords and Northern lords who are allies to him on paper, but realistically have no ties to house Frey. 

Either way all I'm saying is that Lord Walder should expect all the Lords he pissed off with the Red Wedding to plot against him. He doesn't have to predict that it will be Lord Wyman exactly who plots against him, but he should expect that all these Lords won't just accept the Freys as allies because they have no reason to do so. He literally murdered their family members, the only thing he can expect them to do is to plot against him. Had he killed the same people he did but in battle instead, a lot more people would accept that they were bested by the Freys in a way they deem to be honorable and respectable. Yes, they won't like it, but they'll accept it because that's how things work in Westeros. What they will not and cannot accept is the breaking of guest right because it is so sacred to their society. So my point is that Lord Walder knew he was committing an act to be considered by everyone else to be unacceptable, so he should expect that most lords won't just turn the page and accept his house as their allies. He should expect that they'll just play along because they have no other choice, but that they will plot against him because they cannot accept his house as allies. 

So if people in Westeros plot against each other for all sorts of different reasons, sometimes no reason at all, Walder should expect that at least one of the many houses he pissed off will plot against him. Either way, he could have killed Robb in so many ways without breaking guest right and without killing people from so many different houses. It's so stupid of him to do the RW when it was unnecessary, he would have been much better off just killing Robb in like any other way and a lot of these houses wouldn't have much reason to plot against him. 

Sure Walder can't predict what Stannis will do, but he can expect that it is a real possibility. I mean, even Cersei knew that Stannis wasn't going to give up, and it was obvious he needed more men. The only place he could go for more men was North because the houses there are most likely to break from the new regime because of the RW. Even if Stannis doesn't do this there was always going to be something else or someone else. Dorne and the Reach have always hated each other so one can expect there is a good possibility they would break from that alliance, and again, the most likely place for anyone to get men is the North since they have the most reason to break from the new regime. The psychotic boy king Joffrey was always going to end up pissing someone off who would then obviously go North to get more men. Walder doesn't have to predict the future to expect that the Northern alliance was going to be frail, and that most are plotting against him, and that they are waiting for an opportunity to turn, and that that opportunity will likely come. He doesn't have to be a genius to expect that the houses he murdered family members of would plot against him, but he'd have to be an idiot to think they would just turn the page and accept him as his ally. 

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Bendric Dayne said:

I'm not saying that he does not have tangible power, I'm saying he has no tangible connections to most of his new allies. He's married into the Manderlys and Boltons and Lannisters; that's a tangible connection to them, but there's dozens of river lords and Northern lords who are allies to him on paper, but realistically have no ties to house Frey. 

Either way all I'm saying is that Lord Walder should expect all the Lords he pissed off with the Red Wedding to plot against him. He doesn't have to predict that it will be Lord Wyman exactly who plots against him, but he should expect that all these Lords won't just accept the Freys as allies because they have no reason to do so. He literally murdered their family members, the only thing he can expect them to do is to plot against him. Had he killed the same people he did but in battle instead, a lot more people would accept that they were bested by the Freys in a way they deem to be honorable and respectable. Yes, they won't like it, but they'll accept it because that's how things work in Westeros. What they will not and cannot accept is the breaking of guest right because it is so sacred to their society. So my point is that Lord Walder knew he was committing an act to be considered by everyone else to be unacceptable, so he should expect that most lords won't just turn the page and accept his house as their allies. He should expect that they'll just play along because they have no other choice, but that they will plot against him because they cannot accept his house as allies. 

So if people in Westeros plot against each other for all sorts of different reasons, sometimes no reason at all, Walder should expect that at least one of the many houses he pissed off will plot against him. Either way, he could have killed Robb in so many ways without breaking guest right and without killing people from so many different houses. It's so stupid of him to do the RW when it was unnecessary, he would have been much better off just killing Robb in like any other way and a lot of these houses wouldn't have much reason to plot against him. 

Sure Walder can't predict what Stannis will do, but he can expect that it is a real possibility. I mean, even Cersei knew that Stannis wasn't going to give up, and it was obvious he needed more men. The only place he could go for more men was North because the houses there are most likely to break from the new regime because of the RW. Even if Stannis doesn't do this there was always going to be something else or someone else. Dorne and the Reach have always hated each other so one can expect there is a good possibility they would break from that alliance, and again, the most likely place for anyone to get men is the North since they have the most reason to break from the new regime. The psychotic boy king Joffrey was always going to end up pissing someone off who would then obviously go North to get more men. Walder doesn't have to predict the future to expect that the Northern alliance was going to be frail, and that most are plotting against him, and that they are waiting for an opportunity to turn, and that that opportunity will likely come. He doesn't have to be a genius to expect that the houses he murdered family members of would plot against him, but he'd have to be an idiot to think they would just turn the page and accept him as his ally. 

Well two issues there one they are already married or allied to many riverlords pre RW and you dont have to marry the whole friggin lot of thrm to rule them, any plot or conspiracy risks bringing the whole crown down upon a lord thus most  riverlords are simply moving on, any formal expected  resistance ended when jamie did his lil.catapault stunt with edmure, nor can walder or anyone have predicted an unkillable fire noble creating a small  plucky band for zombie cat  to strike back with!!!

Look lord manderly is one of the most powerful lords in all of westeros and he has to  be afraid and plot in utter secrecy ..what do you imagine most lesser lords are like? manderly is finding a  stark kid to rally a resistance  that otherwise wouldnt happen around. Stannis going north was def not 'predictable' as the northern lords rejected him...hes only still in the game due to jons advice and then tywin dying on the toilet  cersei being a moron  with the iron bank (again not factors anyone would reasonable expect to happen when plotting RW ) 

Again of he didnt do the red wedding and reject robb  then the twins is besieged possibly ending his line!  It cannot sit between north and south lines and be left

 

 

[Alester Florent]

Leaving aside the arguments about social taboo, etc. (not that they aren't important in themselves) the problem with the Red Wedding is that it's an attack on the whole way that society in Westeros actually functions. Society functions on trust. People have to be able to travel and talk to each other and visit each other's castles with an expectation of safety. The importance of guest right reflects the importance of the purpose it serves. In its absence, it becomes impossible to do business, impossible to hold social events, impossible to travel, impossible to govern.

After all, there was no way for Robb to tell what Walder was going to do. Walder invited Robb to his home, he threw a wedding for Robb's uncle, he made all the usual promises and went through the ceremony that specifically entitled Robb to protection under guest right. Then he killed him. If you can't trust that, you can't trust anything. Nobody can feel safe visiting a Frey or trusting their word ever again. Arguably, once the precedent is set, nobody can fully trust anyone ever again. That essential element of a functioning society is broken.

Raising an army and marching openly on your opponent and killing his dudes (and women, and children), on the other hand, is part of how society functions. And within that context of declared enmity you can pretty much do what you like. Some tactics may be seen as more honourable than otherwise, but it's all understood, and part of the deal. People who die doing this are regretted and mourned, but it's an accepted thing that happens and it can happen a great deal before it starts to damage the fabric of society itself, largely through logistical impact.

To put it another way, battles (and associated raiding) are part of the cost of living in Westerosi society. Breaking guest right is a repudiation of Westerosi society.

Although we haven't enshrined the concept of "guest right" IRL in the same way (or rather, perhaps, it has lost its importance with time, for various reasons) the key concept remains. It's why shooting an enemy soldier in the face on the battlefield is acceptable, but doing the same to their ambassador in your capital is a war crime and will make you an international pariah.

It says a lot about Tywin that, while he is shrewd enough to anticipate a backlash against the Red Wedding and distance himself from it, he doesn't really seem to grasp why it should be so shocking.

[Barbrey Dustin]

Not so far.  It may turn out that he is an idiot later but so far it is the Starks who are the idiots and the losers.  It was Robb who acted the fool and lost everything.  Walder gained and so did Roose. 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

14 minutes ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

Not so far.  It may turn out that he is an idiot later but so far it is the Starks who are the idiots and the losers.  It was Robb who acted the fool and lost everything.  Walder gained and so did Roose. 

Walder gained an even poorer reputation then he already had. That’s it. The Lannisters are the ones who truly gained Riverrun. The Boltons temporarily gained the North (where 90% of the noble houses hate them, and the other 10% dislike them.). At the time of the planning, Tyrion would’ve gained control of the North once Sansa had a child. 
 

So yes, Walder Frey is an idiot and he and Roose got played. While everyone knows Tywin was involved, the majority of blame and retribution will fall on the Freys and Boltons. And it’ll be completely justified because what Robb did, didn’t merit what he got. No matter what you, and other accounts try to pull out your asses.

[timstark69]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:20 AM, Barbrey Dustin said:

Not so far.  It may turn out that he is an idiot later but so far it is the Starks who are the idiots and the losers.  It was Robb who acted the fool and lost everything.  Walder gained and so did Roose. 

He had considerable influence but failed to use it to his advantage, and the Red Wedding he organized had serious consequences for him and his family. What good did he gain in the end, I'm a little unclear. In general, this case with Frey is quite interesting. I like to analyze only interesting cases in the literature, this is a habit from school. Normally I would ask for a write my literature review for me on some site like this https://paperell.net/write-my-literature-review, but I described the Walder Frey situation in my freelance work. His actions brought him only short-term benefits, and it is surprising that such an experienced lord is so ill-conceived of the possible steps on the part of the Starks in relation to him and his family. I got an excellent essay, it was appreciated.

Edited April 14 by timstark69

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

4 minutes ago, timstark69 said:

He had considerable influence but failed to use it to his advantage, and the Red Wedding he organized had serious consequences for him and his family. What good did he gain in the end, I'm a little unclear.

He gained nothing but personal satisfaction by “getting back at” a higher lord who insulted him. That’s it.

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 hours ago, Prince Rhaegar Targareyen said:

He gained nothing but personal satisfaction by “getting back at” a higher lord who insulted him. That’s it.

The desire to personally watch Robb be killed or captured had to be it. Because otherwise he could have merely closed off The Twins to the northmen and watch them be hunted down. Even if Roose had remained loyal to Robb, they wouldn't have had enough men to take it, nor the resources to successfully besiege it before an army (e.g. Tarley's men at Duskendale) could come to relieve the Freys.

Robb with no way to come north and minimal forces on hand would have had a hard time doing anything but bending the knee.

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The desire to personally watch Robb be killed or captured had to be it. Because otherwise he could have merely closed off The Twins to the northmen and watch them be hunted down. Even if Roose had remained loyal to Robb, they wouldn't have had enough men to take it, nor the resources to successfully besiege it before an army (e.g. Tarley's men at Duskendale) could come to relieve the Freys.

Robb with no way to come north and minimal forces on hand would have had a hard time doing anything but bending the knee.

Given tywins vengeful and calculating nature though hes far more likely to let robb bleed his limited manpower,  hurting robb and getting rid  of a 2 time turncloak at the same time. Would give him time to have  oxcross survivors  augmented with fresh levies(and or sellswords) plus breathing room to   to deal with any other issues political or personal.

[James West]

Hey @Bendric Dayne  you can present a good case for Lord Walder having insecurities leading to vindictiveness.  But I don't think there is anything in the books which would lead most fans to arrive at the conclusion that Lord Walder is an idiot.  An idiot he is not.  Quite the opposite.  The idiot in that part of Westeros was Robb Stark.

[Aldarion]

1 hour ago, James West said:

Hey @Bendric Dayne  you can present a good case for Lord Walder having insecurities leading to vindictiveness.  But I don't think there is anything in the books which would lead most fans to arrive at the conclusion that Lord Walder is an idiot.  An idiot he is not.  Quite the opposite.  The idiot in that part of Westeros was Robb Stark.

There is one part in which a case could be made for Walder Frey being an idiot, and that is the whole "breaking the guest right" thing. Sure, he was fully within his rights to revoke alliance with Robb Stark and to join Tywin, but breaking the guest right simply goes beyond the pale - especially by Westerosi standards. He has essentially made himself and his men into outlaws - and by that I mean men with no protection of the law, whom anybody can kill with no repercussions.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 hour ago, James West said:

Hey @Bendric Dayne  you can present a good case for Lord Walder having insecurities leading to vindictiveness.  But I don't think there is anything in the books which would lead most fans to arrive at the conclusion that Lord Walder is an idiot.  An idiot he is not.  Quite the opposite.  The idiot in that part of Westeros was Robb Stark.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, James West said:

But I don't think there is anything in the books which would lead most fans to arrive at the conclusion that Lord Walder is an idiot. 

Well going by the replies to this thread the majority of fans do consider Walder to be an idiot. So...