Ned is the Knight of the Laughing Tree v2.0

[Kienn]

It has come to my attention that there are still a few people that have not yet accepted that Ned is the Knight of the Laughing Tree. So I have updated my version of the theory to help these last few stubborn holdouts overcome their reticence.

Part 1: Decoupling KotLT from RLJ.

Firstly I will have to address what seems to be the major hurdle to overcome - the piggybacking of Lyanna as KotLT on “R + L = J”. While RLJ is certainly true, it does not imply that Lyanna is the KotLT. The argument is that without Lyanna as KotLT there would be no reason for Rhaegar to have been drawn to Lyanna or any chance for them to have met.

We can start with the assumption that Lyanna was the KotLT. How did Rhaegar track her down and uncover her? The most reasonable explanation is a basic investigation.

• Since the KotLT challenged 3 knights, Rhaegar would speak to those knights to learn what they knew of the KotLT. They would thus tell Rhaegar that the KotLT scolded them to chastise their squires for their lack of honor.
• By speaking with the squires Rhaegar will learn of their confrontation with Howland and his rescue by Lyanna.
• Complete! Rhaegar has tracked down the reason the KotLT challenged the 3 knights and who the KotLT was. Rhaegar can speak with Lyanna and spark their relationship and/or his interest in her.

So how does this sequence change if Lyanna is not the KotLT? It doesn’t change at all. The actions of the KotLT lead invariably to Rhaegar meeting with Lyanna regardless of who was inside the KotLT’s helm. Lyanna’s rescue of Howland is enough to spark Rhaegar’s interest in her. Personally I think Rhaegar was aiming to find someone to birth his “Visenya” and complete his trio of children mimicking the Conqueror and his sisters. Lyanna’s sword prowess and defensive personality would have fit that bill perfectly.

As Meera says - RLJ is a different, “sadder story”.

Part 2: Direct textual links between Eddard & KotLT.

Now we can move on to the real evidence for Ned as the KotLT. Firstly of course, the booming voice used by the KotLT:

ASoS 24, Bran II

Quote

When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, "Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough."

Throughout the series, “booming” is used frequently for laughter, tying it closely with the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Even Toad’s “shrill” laughter is described this way:

AGoT 70, Jon IX

Quote

Another voice broke in. "You know where I'd be if it was me? I'd be in Mole's Town, digging for buried treasure." Toad's shrill laughter boomed through the trees. Jon's mare snorted.

Ned ties the booming voice to a commander’s “battlefield voice”. A necessary skill for any commander to have their orders heard in the din of battle.

AGoT 30, Eddard VII

Quote

It was the king's voice that put an end to it … the king's voice and twenty swords. Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. "STOP THIS MADNESS," he boomed, “IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!”

Just as Jon Arryn taught Robert and Ned - so too did Ned teach Robb and Jon:

ASoS 55, Jon VII

Quote

He has a lord’s voice, Jon thought. His father had always said that in battle a captain’s lungs were as important as his sword arm. "It does not matter how brave or brilliant a man is, if his commands cannot be heard," Lord Eddard told his sons, so Robb and he used to climb the towers of Winterfell to shout at each other across the yard. Donal Noye could have drowned out both of them.

Indeed, earlier in Jon’s chapters Donal Noye’s voice is described as booming itself:

AGoT 19, Jon III

Quote

Jon was rolling away from the blows when a booming voice cut through the gloom of the armory. "STOP THIS! NOW!"

Jon pulled himself to his feet. Donal Noye stood glowering at them.

Although we have not yet seen Ned's voice described as a "booming voice" he is connected to it through multiple threads. No other candidate for the KotLT can claim this connection.

Part 2B: No friend to the king.

Another description of the KotLT stands out:

ASoS 24, Bran II

Quote

That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his.

Inevitably, another essentially friendless pyrophilic mad king chooses to describe just one character similarly. Repeatedly.

ACoK 31, Catelyn III

Quote

“I am sorry for your lord’s death,” he said, “though Eddard Stark was no friend to me.”

ASoS 76, Jon XI

Quote

Stannis snorted. "I know Janos Slynt. And I knew Ned Stark as well. Your father was no friend of mine, but only a fool would doubt his honor or his honesty."

ASoS 76, Jon XI

Quote

Stannis gave a curt nod. "Your father was a man of honor. He was no friend to me, but I saw his worth."

With quite a lot of effort, I have found no king refer to any other character throughout the series in this way. Please correct me if I’ve missed any. Tyrion loves to say it about a variety of people… but he is no king.

Of course, this also ties thematically to Eddard’s plot throughout AGoT. He is constantly questioning whether Robert, his king, is still the same man as his friend. Stannis and Jon also share a philosophy that leaders should not have friends:

ACoK 31, Catelyn III

Quote

“Kings have no friends,” Stannis said bluntly, “only subjects and enemies.”

ADwD 53, Jon XI

Quote

Sam, you sweet fat fool, you played me a cruel jape when you made me lord commander. A lord commander has no friends.

Of course while for Stannis it does seem to be a true philosophy, I suspect Jon is simply sad because he has sent his friends away to protect them and/or since they are the only ones he can trust to get some important things done. Perhaps he even did learn from Ned the below lesson:

AGoT 22, Arya II

Quote

Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. “Know the men who follow you,” she heard him tell Robb once, “and let them know you. Don’t ask your men to die for a stranger.

Does Ned regard all his men (and Old Nan) as his friends? Or something else?

Before becoming king Robert was legendary for turning enemies into his friends. And yet by the time of AGoT he seems as friendless and defenseless to treason as Jon in ADwD.

Anyway, enough of that tangent, we have more theory to get to!

Part 3: The checklist

Now I will go through the checklist that we all love for the KotLT. All the squishy points that can be promoted or dismissed for what seems like any character since there’s no “hook nose” and “curly black hair” (see Jaqen & the Alchemist) to point at.

1) Why wouldn’t Ned wear his own armor?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP4Nc_HE2F8

There’s so many potential reasons here. One is simply that Ned thought his own armor was too recognizable, so if going as a mystery knight, he needed to switch it up a little to not give himself away instantly. My personal favored idea is that Ned simply had not brought his own armor because he wasn’t planning on participating. Only on hearing Howland’s prayer did he decide to joust. This would be fairly similar to Baelor Breakspear in The Hedge Knight:

The Hedge Knight, Dunk the Lunk

Quote

The Young Prince. Gods be good, is it truly him?

Lord Ashford made the same mistake. "Prince Valarr?"

‘"No." The black knight lifted the visor of his helm. "I did not think to enter the lists at Ashford, my lord, so I brought no armor. My son was good enough to lend me his." Prince Baelor smiled almost sadly.

Baelor decided to joust to defend a man that needed help. Ned took the extra step of borrowing various mismatched pieces so he wouldn’t be recognizable as anyone specific.

2) Is Ned short?

Ned is described as taller than his own children and at least one of Varys’ disguises, but also shorter than his brother Brandon and other tall characters like Robert. Obviously that puts him somewhere in the middle. So can he be called short? Personally I think he is probably on the shorter side of average, but the real question is was he relatively small during the Tourney at Harrenhal?

Horses can be just as recognizable as armor, so it’s likely that Ned also borrowed his mount for his entry as KotLT. I believe that Ned borrowed one of Robert’s “huge destriers”. We see from Ned’s own perspective at the Hand’s Tourney that size is quite relative when it comes to mounts:

AGoT 30, Eddard VII

Quote

[Gregor] was well over seven feet tall, closer to eight, with massive shoulders and arms thick as the trunks of small trees. His destrier seemed a pony in between his armored legs, and the lance he carried looked as small as a broom handle.

If a huge man can make a huge horse seem small it’s reasonable that a huge horse can make an average or slightly small youth seem remarkably small.

We can also note that Ned was 18 during the Tourney and a year later married Catelyn. Catelyn compares Ned in AGoT to Ned at their wedding like this:

AGoT 6, Catelyn II

Quote

He looked somehow smaller and more vulnerable, like the youth she had wed in the sept at Riverrun, fifteen long years gone.

If he wasn’t full grown at his wedding a year after the Tourney, Ned would also have still been growing at the time of the tourney itself a year earlier, allowing him to be a few inches shorter than his eventual full height and potentially remarkable as “short of stature”, especially on a proportionally larger mount.

3) Why would Ned use a laughing weirwood as his sigil?

I don’t think I need to explain the connection between Ned and the weirwoods since he is one of the very few characters we see in the series that prays to the weirwoods on a regular basis. Many people take issue with the “laughing” part of the sigil because of their impression of Ned’s personality as somber & stern. One favorite quote for this is Catelyn’s thought:

ASoS 45, Catelyn V

Quote

She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber.

However, it’s easy to realize that the moment when Catelyn met Ned was during the war, after Ned’s father and brother have both been killed. I think that would damper anyone’s mood. Here we can see how Ned’s dark experiences can squash moments of joy:

AGoT 30, Eddard VII

Quote

Then [Robert] dropped back into a chair, shaking with laughter.

Ser Barristan Selmy chuckled with him. Even Eddard Stark managed a smile. Always, though, the graver thoughts crept in.

This is when Robert pranks his squires, sending them to find the “breastplate stretcher”. Eddard is briefly entertained by his friend’s prank, but just like during Robert’s Rebellion; Eddard’s thoughts turn to darker things: Jon Arryn’s recent death, the threat against Robert himself, and potential war brewing. I won’t claim that Ned is or was ever as rowdy as Robert himself, but he is not humorless like Stannis. Ned himself marks this as one of Stannis’ faults:

AGoT 27, Eddard VI

Quote

Robert’s lusts were the subject of ribald drinking songs throughout the realm, but Stannis was a different sort of man; a bare year younger than the king, yet utterly unlike him, stern, humorless, unforgiving

From Eddard’s children we see that Eddard himself certainly knows how to laugh.

AGoT 8, Bran II

Quote

As angry as he was, his father could not help but laugh. “You’re not my son,” he told Bran when they fetched him down, “you’re a squirrel. So be it. If you must climb, then climb, but try not to let your mother see you.”

ACoK 30, Arya VII

Quote

She remembered hearing her lady mother tell Father to put on his lord’s face and go deal with some matter. Father had laughed at that.

So the question is what was Eddard’s personality in his youth, before his family started dying? With a friend like Robert it seems unlikely that Eddard just had a stick up his butt all the time. He clearly enjoyed growing up with Robert and likely joined in on various pranks, or laughed along as witness.

The world book tells us that Robert was regarded as the “Laughing Storm reborn”.

TWoIaF, House Baratheon

Quote

Steffon’s own firstborn son, Robert, succeeded him as Lord of Storm’s End and grew to be one of the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms—a warrior so strong and fearless that many hailed him as the Laughing Storm reborn.

If this was indeed a well known sobriquet for Robert in his youth then a “laughing weirwood” seems appropriate as a joking title for his northern companion Ned. Robert may have suggested it as Ned’s personal sigil in private as we see him do in AGoT:

AGoT 12, Eddard II

Quote

“‘at times you’re so prickly you ought to take the hedgehog as your sigil.’”

4) Why wouldn’t Ned just enter as himself instead of a mystery knight?

From Dunk we’re told that tourneys can vary widely in the format and ruleset

The Hedge Knight, Dunk the Lunk

Quote

Even the rules of this tourney worked against him, making it very unlikely that he would face a green or feeble foe.

There were a dozen different forms a tourney might follow, according to the whim of the lord who hosted it.

For such a large tourney like the Tourney at Harrenhal with 5 days of jousting a reasonable format would be to allow lower status knights to joust in the earlier days, and higher status knights in the later days. This would give everyone a chance to participate with a chance at becoming a champion briefly without having to face someone with far better training than themself.

This would mean that on the second day of jousting Ned, as a son of a high lord would be very unlikely allowed to enter. It could even be seen as dishonorable for him to enter at such a time and spoil the chance for lower knights. From Ned’s perspective the dishonor of breaking these rules may have only have been acceptable in order to teach the dishonorable squires and their knights a lesson.

We can even see that this format does fit with what we’re told of the tourney:

ASoS 24, Bran II

Quote

“Their conquerors reigned briefly as champions, until they were vanquished in turn. As it happened, the end of the first day saw the porcupine knight win a place among the champions, and on the morning of the second day the pitchfork knight and the knight of the two towers were victorious as well.”

The earliest champions are not even worth mentioning by sigil, perhaps they had no recognizable house? The porcupine knight and pitchfork knight are likely from houses Blount and Haigh, both quite weak houses. House Frey of the two towers may have been restricted from entering until the morning of day 2 since they are a relatively more powerful house. Day 2 likely would have been restricted to peers of House Frey, with greater houses such as Tully and Stark only being allowed in during day 3 or 4 and lastly Rhaegar and the Kingsguard perhaps only on day 5.

Since the goal of the tournament was indeed likely for Rhaegar himself to take the championship then this format also helps him since he only needs to compete on the final day where he can be fresh against opponents that may be worn down already (or cooperating with him in the case of the white knights).

Part 4: The aftermath

It becomes less clear what happened after the Tournament. I’m sure whatever George writes will be far more interesting than my best guesses, but I think it will be significant that quite a few people would have known that Ned was the KotLT despite him never being unmasked. He had a shield painted, borrowed armor from several people, and  of course Robert’s own horse. Robert seems to make an inside joke by claiming he would unmask the KotLT even though he does not generally joust and indeed is not mentioned as actually jousting later in this tourney. With tongues wagging and joking, eventually the identity of the KotLT would make its way to Aerys.

It’s possible that Aerys learning of Ned as the KotLT is what triggered Rhaegar to seek out Lyanna. Did Aerys want her as a hostage to get Ned to King’s Landing? Or was Rhaegar trying to protect the Starks from worse by taking her?

It’s also possible that Rhaegar took Lyanna for his own reasons but enabled Aerys to finally unmask Ned by torturing and executing Brandon’s entourage. Ethan Glover was the only survivor, perhaps he was spared for confessing.

Either way by the end of the executions of Brandon’s entourage and their fathers I think that Aerys knew that the KotLT was Ned and of Robert’s help and mockery. This would be why he called for their heads from Jon Arryn and triggered the rebellion.

Conclusion

Bran, a second son of a second son, who dreamed of being a knight but was unable to ever be one asked for a story about a knight. Jojen and Meera told him the story of his own father’s time as a knight, trying to do what was right and yet have it go wrong due to a poor king’s madness. When Bran uses his view of history through the weirwoods to look back at his family and learns the full truth of the story of the KotLT perhaps the lessons available will help him become a better Lord himself.

TLDR:

• Rhaegar meets Lyanna regardless of who the KotLT was.
• Ned is uniquely textually connected to the KotLT by the “booming voice” and “no friend of mine”.
• Ned checks all the boxes for the KotLT thanks to Robert.
• This is why Aerys calls for Ned & Robert’s heads.

 

Edited March 10 by Kienn
final edits for typos

[sweetsunray]

You present a reasonable case based on text and tie it to later events., except for trying to fit Ned into "short" stature. He's just not as tall as the giants of the series. And it would require a horse the size of the fake one Beiaard to give anyone the impression that its rider is short, especially if they wear armor. Interestingly enough, the joust involving the Mountain on his horse is against a lithe knight of flowers on a mare in heat bedecked with blue "forget me nots": aka Lyanna.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Kienn said:

It has come to my attention that there are still a few people that have not yet accepted that Ned is the Knight of the Laughing Tree. So I have updated my version of the theory to help these last few stubborn holdouts overcome their reticence.

Wow. I'm not sure this type of condescending statement is the best approach right off the bat. But it seems your mileage does vary. 

3 hours ago, Kienn said:

Part 1: Decoupling KotLT from RLJ.

Firstly I will have to address what seems to be the major hurdle to overcome - the piggybacking of Lyanna as KotLT on “R + L = J”. While RLJ is certainly true, it does not imply that Lyanna is the KotLT. The argument is that without Lyanna as KotLT there would be no reason for Rhaegar to have been drawn to Lyanna or any chance for them to have met.

We can start with the assumption that Lyanna was the KotLT. How did Rhaegar track her down and uncover her? The most reasonable explanation is a basic investigation.

• Since the KotLT challenged 3 knights, Rhaegar would speak to those knights to learn what they knew of the KotLT. They would thus tell Rhaegar that the KotLT scolded them to chastise their squires for their lack of honor.
• By speaking with the squires Rhaegar will learn of their confrontation with Howland and his rescue by Lyanna.
• Complete! Rhaegar has tracked down the reason the KotLT challenged the 3 knights and who the KotLT was. Rhaegar can speak with Lyanna and spark their relationship and/or his interest in her.

So how does this sequence change if Lyanna is not the KotLT? It doesn’t change at all. The actions of the KotLT lead invariably to Rhaegar meeting with Lyanna regardless of who was inside the KotLT’s helm. Lyanna’s rescue of Howland is enough to spark Rhaegar’s interest in her. Personally I think Rhaegar was aiming to find someone to birth his “Visenya” and complete his trio of children mimicking the Conqueror and his sisters. Lyanna’s sword prowess and defensive personality would have fit that bill perfectly.

As Meera says - RLJ is a different, “sadder story”.

Nothing earth-shattering here, or even new in any way. I agree w/ your assessment: nothing here proves Lyanna is the KoLT, and nothing disproves it either. 

Disclaimer: I'm not convinced Lyanna is the KoLT but I think she is one possible candidate.

3 hours ago, Kienn said:

Part 2: Direct textual links between Eddard & KotLT.

Now we can move on to the real evidence for Ned as the KotLT. Firstly of course, the booming voice used by the KotLT:

ASoS 24, Bran II

Throughout the series, “booming” is used frequently for laughter, tying it closely with the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Even Toad’s “shrill” laughter is described this way:

AGoT 70, Jon IX

Ned ties the booming voice to a commander’s “battlefield voice”. A necessary skill for any commander to have their orders heard in the din of battle.

AGoT 30, Eddard VII

Just as Jon Arryn taught Robert and Ned - so too did Ned teach Robb and Jon:

ASoS 55, Jon VII

Indeed, earlier in Jon’s chapters Donal Noye’s voice is described as booming itself:

AGoT 19, Jon III

Although we have not yet witnessed Ned himself using a “booming voice” he is connected to it through multiple threads. No other candidate for the KotLT can claim this connection.

While I agree that the first set of 'evidence' you presented support the idea that Lyanna isn't necessarily the KoLT, I find this second set very weak in terms of proving evidence for Ned being the KoLT. 

Booming/booming voice is used throughout the novels; in some instances irt laughter but in many, many other instances to indicate rage, demanding attention, as pleas for help, etc. So I find it quite the stretch to try to use it as evidence in support of Ned being the KoLT. 

 

3 hours ago, Kienn said:

Part 2B: No friend to the king.

Another description of the KotLT stands out:

ASoS 24, Bran II

Inevitably, another essentially friendless pyrophilic mad king chooses to describe just one character similarly. Repeatedly.

ACoK 31, Catelyn III

ASoS 76, Jon XI

ASoS 76, Jon XI

With quite a lot of effort, I have found no king refer to any other character throughout the series in this way. Please correct me if I’ve missed any. Tyrion loves to say it about a variety of people… but he is no king.

Of course, this also ties thematically to Eddard’s plot throughout AGoT. He is constantly questioning whether Robert, his king, is still the same man as his friend. Stannis and Jon also share a philosophy that leaders should not have friends:

ACoK 31, Catelyn III

ADwD 53, Jon XI

Of course while for Stannis it does seem to be a true philosophy, I suspect Jon is simply sad because he has sent his friends away to protect them and/or since they are the only ones he can trust to get some important things done. Perhaps he even did learn from Ned the below lesson:

AGoT 22, Arya II

Does Ned regard all his men (and Old Nan) as his friends? Or something else?

Before becoming king Robert was legendary for turning enemies into his friends. And yet by the time of AGoT he seems as friendless and defenseless to treason as Jon in ADwD.

Anyway, enough of that tangent, we have more theory to get to!

As you pointed out, Tyrion uses the 'no friend to/of' several times, as do many other characters. No, they are not kings. Then again, how many kings are there in the main series? Again, I think this is pretty weak as evidence supporting Ned as the KoLT. The fact that both Aerys and Stannis use it may make some type of connection between the two, but I don't think it is a clue pointing to Ned as the KoLT.

3 hours ago, Kienn said:

Part 3: The checklist

Now I will go through the checklist that we all love for the KotLT. All the squishy points that can be promoted or dismissed for what seems like any character since there’s no “hook nose” and “curly black hair” (see Jaqen & the Alchemist) to point at.

1) Why wouldn’t Ned wear his own armor?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP4Nc_HE2F8

There’s so many potential reasons here. One is simply that Ned thought his own armor was too recognizable, so if going as a mystery knight, he needed to switch it up a little to not give himself away instantly. My personal favored idea is that Ned simply had not brought his own armor because he wasn’t planning on participating. Only on hearing Howland’s prayer did he decide to joust. This would be fairly similar to Baelor Breakspear in The Hedge Knight:

The Hedge Knight, Dunk the Lunk

Baelor decided to joust to defend a man that needed help. Ned took the extra step of borrowing various mismatched pieces so he wouldn’t be recognizable as anyone specific.

It makes sense for whoever is the KoLT not to wear their own armour - if they had armour. So this one doesn't prove or disprove anything IMO.

3 hours ago, Kienn said:

2) Is Ned short?

Ned is described as taller than his own children and at least one of Varys’ disguises, but also shorter than his brother Brandon and other tall characters like Robert. Obviously that puts him somewhere in the middle. So can he be called short? Personally I think he is probably on the shorter side of average, but the real question is was he relatively small during the Tourney at Harrenhal?

Horses can be just as recognizable as armor, so it’s likely that Ned also borrowed his mount for his entry as KotLT. I believe that Ned borrowed one of Robert’s “huge destriers”. We see from Ned’s own perspective at the Hand’s Tourney that size is quite relative when it comes to mounts:

AGoT 30, Eddard VII

If a huge man can make a huge horse seem small it’s reasonable that a huge horse can make an average or slightly small youth seem remarkably small.

We can also note that Ned was 18 during the Tourney and a year later married Catelyn. Catelyn compares Ned in AGoT to Ned at their wedding like this:

AGoT 6, Catelyn II

If he wasn’t full grown at his wedding a year after the Tourney, Ned would also have still been growing at the time of the tourney itself a year earlier, allowing him to be a few inches shorter than his eventual full height and potentially remarkable as “short of stature”, especially on a proportionally larger mount.

Firstly, irt the highlighted in red: these are contradictory IMO. You say horses are as recognisable as armour; I think horses are actually more recognisable than armour. And I would imagine Robert's "huge destriers" would be even more easily recognisable than pretty much any other horses. 

I also don't think Ned would have grown upwards of 2 inches at that age... had he been 15, ok, but at 18? Maybe - though I find it unlikely - but more importantly, it doesn't really prove anything. IMO.

3 hours ago, Kienn said:

3) Why would Ned use a laughing weirwood as his sigil?

I don’t think I need to explain the connection between Ned and the weirwoods since he is one of the very few characters we see in the series that prays to the weirwoods on a regular basis. Many people take issue with the “laughing” part of the sigil because of their impression of Ned’s personality as somber & stern. One favorite quote for this is Catelyn’s thought:

ASoS 45, Catelyn V

However, it’s easy to realize that the moment when Catelyn met Ned was during the war, after Ned’s father and brother have both been killed. I think that would damper anyone’s mood. Here we can see how Ned’s dark experiences can squash moments of joy:

AGoT 30, Eddard VII

This is when Robert pranks his squires, sending them to find the “breastplate stretcher”. Eddard is briefly entertained by his friend’s prank, but just like during Robert’s Rebellion; Eddard’s thoughts turn to darker things: Jon Arryn’s recent death, the threat against Robert himself, and potential war brewing. I won’t claim that Ned is or was ever as rowdy as Robert himself, but he is not humorless like Stannis. Ned himself marks this as one of Stannis’ faults:

AGoT 27, Eddard VI

From Eddard’s children we see that Eddard himself certainly knows how to laugh.

AGoT 8, Bran II

ACoK 30, Arya VII

So the question is what was Eddard’s personality in his youth, before his family started dying? With a friend like Robert it seems unlikely that Eddard just had a stick up his butt all the time. He clearly enjoyed growing up with Robert and likely joined in on various pranks, or laughed along as witness.

The world book tells us that Robert was regarded as the “Laughing Storm reborn”.

TWoIaF, House Baratheon

If this was indeed a well known sobriquet for Robert in his youth then a “laughing weirwood” seems appropriate as a joking title for his northern companion Ned. Robert may have suggested it as Ned’s personal sigil in private as we see him do in AGoT:

AGoT 12, Eddard II

Nothing to see here IMO. Ned is not someone who is constantly laughing, but we can agree he's not someone who doesn't laugh ever. 

Then there's the assumption that the shield used by the KoLT was painted for this ocasion specifically, something we can't be sure of. For instance, if the KoLT wants to remain a mystery knight and is someone from the north, it would be a pretty dumb move to use a weirwood - laughing or not - on the shield. There are not many details about the shield other than it had a laughing heart tree; nothing about the paint looking fresh/brand new or old and cracked. But it is possible, and imo more likely, that the shield was found somewhere and used by the KoLT and not painted late one day to be used the next day. There's also the fact that doing the paint job on the shield would make it easier for others to track down the mystery knight and whoever helped him, if anyone did. 

 

(posted accidentaly before I was done, will get to the rest separately)

Edited February 18 by kissdbyfire

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Kienn said:

4) Why wouldn’t Ned just enter as himself instead of a mystery knight?

From Dunk we’re told that tourneys can vary widely in the format and ruleset

The Hedge Knight, Dunk the Lunk

Quote

Even the rules of this tourney worked against him, making it very unlikely that he would face a green or feeble foe.

There were a dozen different forms a tourney might follow, according to the whim of the lord who hosted it.

For such a large tourney like the Tourney at Harrenhal with 5 days of jousting a reasonable format would be to allow lower status knights to joust in the earlier days, and higher status knights in the later days. This would give everyone a chance to participate with a chance at becoming a champion briefly without having to face someone with far better training than themself.

This would mean that on the second day of jousting Ned, as a son of a high lord would be very unlikely allowed to enter. It could even be seen as dishonorable for him to enter at such a time and spoil the chance for lower knights. From Ned’s perspective the dishonor of breaking these rules may have only have been acceptable in order to teach the dishonorable squires and their knights a lesson.

We can even see that this format does fit with what we’re told of the tourney:

ASoS 24, Bran II

Quote

“Their conquerors reigned briefly as champions, until they were vanquished in turn. As it happened, the end of the first day saw the porcupine knight win a place among the champions, and on the morning of the second day the pitchfork knight and the knight of the two towers were victorious as well.”

The earliest champions are not even worth mentioning by sigil, perhaps they had no recognizable house? The porcupine knight and pitchfork knight are likely from houses Blount and Haigh, both quite weak houses. House Frey of the two towers may have been restricted from entering until the morning of day 2 since they are a relatively more powerful house. Day 2 likely would have been restricted to peers of House Frey, with greater houses such as Tully and Stark only being allowed in during day 3 or 4 and lastly Rhaegar and the Kingsguard perhaps only on day 5.

Since the goal of the tournament was indeed likely for Rhaegar himself to take the championship then this format also helps him since he only needs to compete on the final day where he can be fresh against opponents that may be worn down already (or cooperating with him in the case of the white knights).

I don't see how any of this proves anything one way or another. 

4 hours ago, Kienn said:

Part 4: The aftermath

It becomes less clear what happened after the Tournament. I’m sure whatever George writes will be far more interesting than my best guesses, but I think it will be significant that quite a few people would have known that Ned was the KotLT despite him never being unmasked. He had a shield painted, borrowed armor from several people, and  of course Robert’s own horse. Robert seems to make an inside joke by claiming he would unmask the KotLT even though he does not generally joust and indeed is not mentioned as actually jousting later in this tourney. With tongues wagging and joking, eventually the identity of the KotLT would make its way to Aerys.

We don't know that the shield was painted for this purpose; again, if it was and the mystery knight is a northerner, it was a pretty dumb move. 

We don't know the KoLT and/or others helping borrowed anything from anyone instead of just finding discarded bits of armour from the armoury or whatever.

We don't know the KoLT rode Robert's horse; you speculate that it was Ned and he did, but as I said above, that horse would be pretty easily recognisable.

4 hours ago, Kienn said:

It’s possible that Aerys learning of the Ned as the KotLT is what triggered Rhaegar to seek out Lyanna. Did Aerys want her as hostage to get Ned to King’s Landing? Or was Rhaegar trying to protect that Starks from worse by taking her?

It’s also possible that Rhaegar took Lyanna for his own reasons but enabled Aerys to finally unmask Ned by torturing and executing Brandon’s entourage. Ethan Glover was the only survivor, perhaps he was spared for confessing.

Either way by the end of the executions of Brandon’s entourage and their fathers I think that Aerys knew that the KotLT was Ned and of Robert’s help and mockery. This would be why he called for their heads from Jon Arryn and triggered the rebellion.

This is all pure speculation. Is it possible? Yes, but there's little to no proper evidence for any of it. IMO it is possible but highly unlikely. 

A stronger case can be made for Benjen. He was roughly 14, so it makes sense for him to seem 'smaller'. There's also the fact that it was Benjen who offered to find "a horse, and some armour that might fit".

 

[Willam Stark]

4 hours ago, Kienn said:

Ned is described as taller than his own children and at least one of Varys’ disguises, but also shorter than his brother Brandon and other tall characters like Robert. Obviously that puts him somewhere in the middle. So can he be called short? Personally I think he is probably on the shorter side of average, but the real question is was he relatively small during the Tourney at Harrenhal?

Robert is 6'5 which is huge even in our world, that doesn't make Ned small. Besides he can swing a six feet long greatsword to behead Gared, his height is therefore greater than the average height of the Dutch, who are the tallest in our world. Even if we consider he hadn't finished his growth back then, he must have been close to the size of Ice. Ned can't be our man, he's way too tall and was already in adulthood at Harrenhall. Lyanna fits the description better.

[Kienn]

7 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

he must have been close to the size of Ice.

That would support him being short quite a lot. Ice is only 4’7”.

Edited February 18 by Kienn

[Evolett]

Can't say I'm fully convinced that Lyanna was the KotLT either. Arguments can be made for Benjen, Ned and even Jamie, though I lean toward Ned myself. 

12 hours ago, Kienn said:

We can start with the assumption that Lyanna was the KotLT. How did Rhaegar track her down and uncover her? The most reasonable explanation is a basic investigation.

• Since the KotLT challenged 3 knights, Rhaegar would speak to those knights to learn what they knew of the KotLT. They would thus tell Rhaegar that the KotLT scolded them to chastise their squires for their lack of honor.
• By speaking with the squires Rhaegar will learn of their confrontation with Howland and his rescue by Lyanna.
• Complete! Rhaegar has tracked down the reason the KotLT challenged the 3 knights and who the KotLT was. Rhaegar can speak with Lyanna and spark their relationship and/or his interest in her.

So how does this sequence change if Lyanna is not the KotLT? It doesn’t change at all. The actions of the KotLT lead invariably to Rhaegar meeting with Lyanna regardless of who was inside the KotLT’s helm. Lyanna’s rescue of Howland is enough to spark Rhaegar’s interest in her.

This makes absolute sense. 

One reason put forward in favour of Lyanna being the mystery knight is her proficiency at riding and apparent sword-fighting ability. There is the passage somewhere stating that riding is the key to jousting, something along those lines. I would argue that riding is important but not enough.

The two flashbacks we have of Lyanna wielding weapons show her using a wooden sword (Howland's defence and Bran's vision). There's no evidence she ever practiced with a lance. Learners like Tommen practice with a lance and ride against quintains fitted with a lance. Characters in the story differentiate between their ability with sword and lance. Jon for instance considers himself a better sword than Robb, while Loras says he's a better lance than Garlan:

 

Quote

Jon swelled with pride. “Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I’m the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.”

.....

“He is a great knight,” Ser Loras replied. “A better sword than me, in truth, though I’m the better lance.” “I remember,” said Sansa. “You ride wonderfully, ser.”

 King Robert and Thoros, wielders of hammer and sword respectively, always took part in melees rather than in the jousting tournament. In fact, Lyanna's encounter with the three dishonorable knights has much in common with a melee. Besting them is fully believable because we know she secretly trained for combat with a sword. Less so in the case of jousting. Arya who mirrors her in many resepects similarly pracitices with swords. This does not mean she couldn't have tried her hand at jousting but apart from her riding ability, we have no evidence for it. 

That Ned never told his children about the events at Harrenhal is also odd. The tale of Lyanna's defence of Howland is a great heroic story, something good to remember her by, whether she was the KotLT or not. He leaves them in the belief that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar, which we know was a necessity, but wouldn't the account of her defending Howland, against three squires, no less, be a tale worth telling to cast her in positive light? Did Ned not even mention this event because he didn't want to deal with follow-up questions he’d rather not face?

At the Hand's Tourney, Loras Tyrell and the scene where he gives Sansa a red rose is undoubtedly supposed to remind us of the Tourney at Harrenhal and Lyanna's crowning. Loras is a parallel to Rhaegar here. On the first day, he rides a snow-white stallion draped in a blanket of red and white roses:

Quote

Sansa had never seen anyone so beautiful. His plate was intricately fashioned and enameled as a bouquet of a thousand different flowers, and his snow-white stallion was draped in a blanket of red and white roses. After each victory, Ser Loras would remove his helm and ride slowly round the fence, and finally pluck a single white rose from the blanket and toss it to some fair maiden in the crowd.

....

To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. “Sweet lady,” he said, “no victory is half so beautiful as you.” 

 

Sansa reads a lot into Loras giving her a red rose but will later discover he didn't even remember doing so. If this is supposed to be a parallel, it suggests Rhaegar crowned Lyanna on a whim, a spontaneous act he didn't give much thought to. However, the tourney was not over at this point, his opponent the next day was Gregor Clegane. It is here he rides the mare in heat and wears the forget-me-nots which remind even more of Lyanna. I think this symbolizes Rhaegar's desire for the "mare," Lyanna, with Gregor in the role of the undefeatable Robert Baratheon to whom Lyanna was betrothed.

The scene shows how Rhaegar might have overcome Robert, by distracting him with another woman (not hard with a man like Robert), thus winning the "prize." So, this suggests Rhaegar's actions were quite deliberate and that in crowning Lyanna, he meant to arouse Robert's anger, that he was in fact looking for a way to engage Robert in combat, and win, in order to legitimately take the prize. Again, Lyanna need not have been the KotLT for this scenario to occur. Knowing she had defended Howland and admiring her for it would have been sufficient. 

Whatever the case, one can find arguments for various candidates, even Benjen, though he was younger than Lyanna at the time. We shall see... 

 

 

 

[Nevets]

I tend to go with Lyanna, both because the clues in the story point in her direction, and because I don't see the storytelling point of it being anyone else (except maybe Howland, but I don't think it's him). 

The main objection to it being Lyanna seems to be the booming voice.  Lyanna's voice is described by Meera as being a roar and then a howl.  Producing a booming voice doesn't sound too difficult for such a person, especially considering the story is being told secondhand.  Plus she has what amounts to a metal bucket on her head which could make her voice sound booming.

The knight is described as being short of stature.  This description would probably apply to Lyanna and Benjen, being young teens, and to Howland, as crannogmen are described as being generally short and small.  Ned has never been described as short and I doubt he would be short enough to be described that way.

The armor is described as being bits and pieces, and ill fitting.  Even if Ned doesn't have or want to use his own, he should be able to borrow something decent that fits and isn't what sounds like discards, i.e. scrap.  Lyanna would have to use discards because nobody is going to help an adolescent girl, or any female, on this, much less loan her armor.  Plus if she loses, she can ditch it and not pay ransom.

Lyanna has been frequently described as an exceptional rider.  Jaime describes jousting as three-quarters horsemanship.  I think this is a clue that Lyanna could reasonably win her jousts, especially against opponents of no great skill.

I tend to discount Ned because of his size and lack of a reason to wear crappy armor, not to mention he can appear in his own right.  Lyanna and probably Benjen would be ineligible to participate.  If this were real life, I would consider Benjen as a suspect; it's not, so I don't.  Having it be Benjen adds nothing to the story.  In fact, it's kind of pointless.

Lyanna checks all the boxes.  She has a clear motive.  She fits the physical description.  She is a good enough rider to plausibly win her jousts.  She has good reason to appear as a mystery knight and to be wearing poor quality armor.  Nobody else that makes sense fits the bill.

 

Edited February 19 by Nevets

[Willam Stark]

12 hours ago, Kienn said:

That would support him being short quite a lot. Ice is only 4’7”.

No, Ice is six feet long, I was referring to it when I said "he can swing a six feet long greatsword to behead Gared"

"Ser Ilyn bowed before the king and queen, reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass carved in the shape of a grinning skull.

Sansa stirred in her seat. "What sword is that?"

 

Tyrion's eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn's greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silvery-bright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. "What has Ser Ilyn done with my father's sword?"

 

I should have sent Ice back to Robb Stark, Tyrion thought. He glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king."

ASOS, Chapter 60, Tyrion VIII

 

Ned must be over six feet tall, otherwise he wouldn't be able to wield Ice and use it to behead Gared.

[Craving Peaches]

10 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Ned must be over six feet tall, otherwise he wouldn't be able to wield Ice and use it to behead Gared.

Isn't VS much lighter than ordinary steel though?

[Willam Stark]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Isn't VS much lighter than ordinary steel though?

The weight is irrelevant here, I'm talking about the size.

Ned cannot wield a sword that is longer than his own height, it's purely mechanical.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Willam Stark said:

The weight is irrelevant here, I'm talking about the size.

Ned cannot wield a sword that is longer than his own height, it's purely mechanical.

Surely it would be possible for Ned to lift and behead if it was light enough, even if it was longer than him? I fully admit I am no expert on physics at all.

Of course, it may be that the author wasn't thinking through the relevant physics. I never got the impression that we were meant to see Ned as being over six foot tall...

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Surely it would be possible for Ned to lift and behead if it was light enough, even if it was longer than him? I fully admit I am no expert on physics at all.

I’m no expert either but the way I picture it in my head makes it very awkward for someone to wield a sword that is taller than they are, however lightweight it is… but that’s just my uneducated impression. 

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Of course, it may be that the author wasn't thinking through the relevant physics. I never got the impression that we were meant to see Ned as being over six foot tall...

I agree, sorta? I don’t think we’re meant to see Ned as someone who’s very tall, but we’re not meant to see him as a short individual either. Given how many super tall people we have in the main cast, I think it’d be within reason to assume Ned is ~ 6ft, give or take a wee bit. But none of this even matter that much imo irt Ned being the KoLT; I think there’s more than enough evidence in support of other candidates such as Lyanna, Howland, Benjen - all three are, IMO, much more likely than Ned. 

And another point against Ned that I forgot to bring up in my previous replies is that I don’t really see Ned hiding the fact that he was the mystery knight once it becomes a thing and Aerys is determined to reveal the knight’s identity. 

[sweetsunray]

11 hours ago, Evolett said:

There's no evidence she ever practiced with a lance.

Not in a canon source, but it is mentioned in the twoiaf app that Lyanna practiced at tilting rings.

Sure, there are mistakes in the app, as they come from George's notes and he may change things, etc. But his notes include a detail that Lyanna practiced the lance, somewhere.

[Willam Stark]

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Surely it would be possible for Ned to lift and behead if it was light enough, even if it was longer than him?

It's not, no matter the weight.

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Of course, it may be that the author wasn't thinking through the relevant physics. I never got the impression that we were meant to see Ned as being over six foot tall...

Or the OP and you assumed Ned was short, based on the fact that he's smaller than Robert (who is unusually tall even in our world) rather than the relevant physic. I would like to add that we are on average much taller than medieval men, who were 5'5" on average, very likely the same in Westeros.

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Or the OP and you assumed Ned was short

I don't picture him as short, I just don't picture him as that tall. I assumed he was average Westeros male height because it is not mentioned that he is tall or short. I certainly wasn't using Robert as a standard, I'm well aware he's unusually tall.

Edited February 19 by Craving Peaches

[EggBlue]

few ?! 

 

you could say the line that Ned's not a friend of the king in the world book and Stannis's line is connected. but that sounds a bit of a stretch I guess. while the booming voice is the better argument there. though that too cannot be proof on its own. the booming voice could be a family trait among Starks, it could be the effect of the voice coming out of the helmet or it could be similar to Hoddor's voice when Bran fights the white walkers in his body.

 

personally, I tend to believe Lyanna's the best candidate for the Knight of the Laughing tree, regardless of RLJ. the KOTLT story's star after the crannogman seems to be the Wolf-Maid . she was the one entering the scene defending Howland and she was the first one calling out the squires. 

a close second, and my favorite, is Howland himself, albeit with a tree Bran lending him strength. that however is more about Bran's constant dream of one day of knighthood and the logistics of jousting for Howland. I think the possibility of Bran giving Lyanna strength and experiencing knighthood through her after she decides to ride the tilts is just as much. Lyanna is also a better candidate than Howland explaining why Meera would think Bran should've heard this story.

Benjen as the sidekick of the story who offers putting together and armor could be a third candidate, though I wouldn't bet on that. 

Ned, Brandon, and Ashara, all of whom appear in the KOTLT story are just side characters in my opinion. and probably have a little story of their own. 

[Willam Stark]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I assumed he was average Westeros male height because it is not mentioned that he is tall or short. I certainly wasn't using Robert as a standard

Fair enough. Then what is the average height of Westerosi males according to you?

Because it changes enormously from one time to another, one country to another.

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Then what is the average height of Westerosi males according to you?

Presumably close to average late middle ages height in Britain...

Edited February 19 by Craving Peaches

[Willam Stark]

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Presumably close to average late middle ages height in Britain...

You do realise it's based on nothing, right?