of sins and madness

[EggBlue]

please, PLEASE, write down this sort of stuff here, and kindly do NOT start new hate threads!

to be honest all the threads including "madness of ______" , "_______ is going insane" , "crimes of _______" , "________ worst sins" , "_______ , the _____heart" and so on are getting far too repetitive. they almost always star Starks and Targaryens and put these families versus each other, regardless of the OP. 

so, I was thinking, why not have a thread for the worst sins of characters and their potential madness(considering all families seem to have the so-called madness genes !)  and be done with it once and for all?! 

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

please, PLEASE, write down this sort of stuff here, and kindly do NOT start new hate threads!

But...but...my new 'The Crimes of Jaime Lannister' thread is due. I did one for Cersei and Tywin (and Tyrion, I think) it's only fair...

3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

to be honest all the threads including "madness of ______" , "_______ is going insane" , "crimes of _______" , "________ worst sins" , "_______ , the _____heart" and so on are getting far too repetitive.

They are because some of them are in response to other threads.

[kissdbyfire]

Yeah, it’s all very boring and repetitive; they also clog up the forum, making interesting discussions less likely. 

[Hugorfonics]

Sins and madness of posters on this site?

[EggBlue]

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But...but...my new 'The Crimes of Jaime Lannister' thread is due. I did one for Cersei and Tywin (and Tyrion, I think) it's only fair...

oh . sorry about that. I was distracted by Hot Pie sin thread and missed Jaimie's!

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

They are because some of them are in response to other threads.

yeah . well , respond to each other here!  

[Craving Peaches]

22 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

oh . sorry about that. I was distracted by Hot Pie sin thread and missed Jaimie's!

It's not out yet. But if you, EggBlue, don't want me to post it then I won't.

[Ring3r]

A thread specifically designed to focus and concentrate the hate of the internet on a single point?

Are you mad?  Even worse....are you Kanye?

[Gilbert Green]

Why not just avoid the threads?  Most of them seem to be clearly labeled. Some are  joke threads.

[LongRider]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sins and madness of posters on this site?

A never-ending thread!

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's not out yet. But if you, EggBlue, don't want me to post it then I won't.

that's very kind of you!

1 hour ago, Ring3r said:

A thread specifically designed to focus and concentrate the hate of the internet on a single point?

Are you mad?  Even worse....are you Kanye?

 

55 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Why not just avoid the threads?  Most of them seem to be clearly labeled. Some are  joke threads.

I'm hoping we can settle these... disagreements for a while! 

[Mourning Star]

Rather than posting the worst sorts of madness, I have decided to write here about the best sort of madness.

"Your own ends. What ends are those, Lord Varys?"
"Peace," Varys replied without hesitation. "If there was one soul in King's Landing who was truly desperate to keep Robert Baratheon alive, it was me." He sighed. "For fifteen years I protected him from his enemies, but I could not protect him from his friends. What strange fit of madness led you to tell the queen that you had learned the truth of Joffrey's birth?"
"The madness of mercy," Ned admitted.
"Ah," said Varys. "To be sure. You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life." He glanced around the cell. "When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why."

Madness here is not some sort of mental illness, but rather something which appears extremely foolish. At least from the perspective of trying to achieve one's own goals.

Doing what one thinks is right, rather than what is practical. I see this as the opposite of "the ends justify the means".

"A craven can be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. And we all do our duty, when there is no cost to it. How easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. Yet soon or late in every man's life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose."

Easy choices, those without risk or cost, are no test of what is right.

It is the hard choices, the heart in conflict with itself, that are the true test. Be it between honor and self interest, between love and duty, or any mix of compelling moral and practical motives.

Aemon, quoted here, seems to be portraying duty as the moral choice and love as the self interested choice. But, I think the story is telling us that things are a bit more complicated than that.

The old man seemed to sense his doubts. "Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?"
Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."
"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

Things are not as clear cut as duty always being the right choice over love, or love being the right choice over duty. Nor do the resulting glories and tragedies of the choices determine their rightness.

I think Jon is right to have doubt. A man cannot do right without first doubting, just as a man cannot be brave if he is not afraid.

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.
"My heart," Davos said slowly, "is full of doubts."
Melisandre sighed. "Ahhhh, Davos. The good knight is honest to the last, even in his day of darkness. 

We are imperfect creatures in an imperfect world, and all we can do is make our choices as best we can.

Rigid dogma, and drawing clear lines in the sand may make choices appear simpler, as if everything were black and white like Melisandre portrays. But, I think the story is trying to point out that this is not reality.

Even those with prophetic dreams do not truly know the future. Or to borrow from Tolkien, "For even the very wise cannot see all ends." We cannot know the results of our actions, all we can do is give them honest consideration (which requires doubt) and make the best choice we can, no matter how mad it may seem.

"Mercy is never a mistake"

Mercy is a choice. It may be madness, it may win you nothing but a beheading, but it may be also be what's right.

There is no promise of reward, nor even good results, from doing what is right either. We make our choices and the results are on our heads.

"The High Septon once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer. If that's true, Lord Eddard, tell me … why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones? Ponder it, if you would, while you wait upon the queen. And spare a thought for this as well: The next visitor who calls on you could bring you bread and cheese and the milk of the poppy for your pain … or he could bring you Sansa's head.
"The choice, my dear lord Hand, is entirely yours."

[Many-Faced Votary]

"The Crimes, Sins, and Developing Madness of Septon Meribald, the Brokenheart" will be posted here, then!

[LongRider]

The Quiet Isle, peaceful, quiet refuge for redemption and reconciliation, or evil cult run by the madman The Elder Brother?   Where the residents of the Isle are not allowed to leave, or even speak, and must keep their heads and faces covered at all times.  They are required to work 18 hours a day for no reward, as the Elder Brother and his sycophant lieutenants sell the fruits of their labor and keep the profits for themselves.  And yet, they pass the Quiet Isle off as a sanctuary for worship of the Faith of the Seven and the haven of so-called broken men.

[EggBlue]

28 minutes ago, LongRider said:

The Quiet Isle, peaceful, quiet refuge for redemption and reconciliation, or evil cult run by the madman The Elder Brother?   Where the residents of the Isle are not allowed to leave, or even speak, and must keep their heads and faces covered at all times.  They are required to work 18 hours a day for no reward, as the Elder Brother and his sycophant lieutenants sell the fruits of their labor and keep the profits for themselves.  And yet, they pass the Quiet Isle off as a sanctuary for worship of the Faith of the Seven and the haven of so-called broken men.

and that's ta plot for one of those thriller movies! 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

"The Crimes, Sins, and Developing Madness of Septon Meribald, the Brokenheart" will be posted here, then!

I never got the admiration. Like serving the seven while really serving Rhllor is kinda cool and progressive and all that but leaving Brienne and co alone for their trial when she's in desperate need of a character witness rubs me the wrong way

[Craving Peaches]

Gregor Clegane. Heartless, thuggish brute...or long suffering opiate addict?

Gregor clearly has an issue with his pituitary gland, and his squire admits he drinks milk of the poppy as though it were water. Clearly, even before being poisoned by Oberyn Gregor was in constant, agonising pain, through no fault of his own, and the medical remedies were not enough. This issue was likely compounded by the fact that people treated him differently due to his size, again for something he had no control over. And when he was knighted by Crown Prince Rhaegar, you can bet others got jealous. We can only imagine the campaign of bullying and exclusion that went on behind the scenes. And then Gregor is finally offered the opportunity to be a hero by carrying out his liege lord's commands. Only to then be used as a scapegoat. His brother hates him, his father and sister died at a young age, his wives have all died too. Gregor lives alone, unloved, in constant pain. With no source of support, whether it be familial or otherwise.

[astarkchoice]

Thats this forum now

Every bad guy was stupid for stopping the happy smiley puppys for everyone ending

Everyone is overrated or underrated  ..no one is rated just right

Starks are both this storys hitler and ghandi 

The targs are supremist scum and also benevolant supermen and women esp their current lady.

Stannis is both the coolest mofo in the books and hated 

[Craving Peaches]

23 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Stannis is both the coolest mofo in the books and hated 

I think Stannis is intended to be polarising...but the Starks aren't. We are meant to see them as the good guys. 

People go on about 'shades of grey' and all that but there are some characters that just have no redeeming features at all.

This isn't helped by people going on about 'Bowen the Martyr' and how evil Jon is. There is room for interpretation up until it clearly reaches the point where you are going against the text and how the author intended the character to be viewed. I am not suggesting that a narrow reading of the character is encouraged but flipping their morality completely is not what the author had in mind, most likely.

[Many-Faced Votary]

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I never got the admiration. Like serving the seven while really serving Rhllor is kinda cool and progressive and all that but leaving Brienne and co alone for their trial when she's in desperate need of a character witness rubs me the wrong way

It's hard to judge him for that when, in context, there does not seem to have been much he could have done for Brienne and the others. As far as we know, it is entirely possible he traveled back to the Quiet Isle to tell the Elder Brother what happened, and maybe he could do something or come to talk to Lady Stoneheart.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think Stannis is intended to be polarising...but the Starks aren't. We are meant to see them as the good guys. 

People go on about 'shades of grey' and all that but there are some characters that just have no redeeming features at all.

This isn't helped by people going on about 'Bowen the Martyr' and how evil Jon is. There is room for interpretation up until it clearly reaches the point where you are going against the text and how the author intended the character to be viewed. I am not suggesting that a narrow reading of the character is encouraged but flipping their morality completely is not what the author had in mind, most likely.

I disagree, I think Ramsay got some shrewdness to him, Gregors the most loyal dope head you'll meet, Walder feels wronged, Krazyns is doing what his ancestors have been doing for hundreds of years and Tywin and Roose want a quite and peaceful land. 

The only characters who to my knowledge are unredeemable are the Others and wights. Although this of course means Melisandre is on the side of not evil, which is troubling to say the least.

The Starks are the protagonists, I'm not sure that makes them the "good guys". Bran and Arya are certainly walking a thin line on what I think we'd all consider good, and Jon himself has made some questionable calls as well. 

I think the author enjoys flipping around our morality, for example having empathy or downright rooting for a twin fucker.