James Steller Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 I've wrestled with this question for a while (and no, I have not watched HOTD yet, I'm only going by the book version). From what Gyldayn says about him, Viserys really doesn't come off as a good king. The stability and prosperousness of his reign can't really be credited to him, can they? It was Jaehaerys who healed the realm and ruled it justly (though I do have issues with Jaehaerys as well). Back on topic, though, Viserys really strikes me as a man who lived fat on his grandfather's laurels. He also sowed the seeds for a conflict so destructive that it nearly obliterated his family. But that said, I don't think I can hold him fully responsible for what happened either. True, he did willfully avoid the serious issues that were tearing his family apart, but his being decisive wouldn't have fixed everything either. Disowning Rhaenyra would have caused a whole bunch of issues, as would his not remarrying after Aemma died. It feels like he was damned no matter what he did. Anyone else have thoughts on this topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 He's most hated than he should. He made his wishes clear and everyone ignored him. There's only so much he can do alive and nothing he can do death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Viserys was a man who should never have been king. He seems like a decent man but he just didn’t have the head or heart to be King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many-Faced Votary Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 I don't know that I would go so far as to say that Viserys I should not have been king. Better the decadence in court of an average king with a good heart and a solid council -- notwithstanding their eventual treason. (On that note, I think the show did a poor job of portraying this motif, because they made it akin to Robert I's court with the rats in the woodwork. It was more the calm before the storm, where the realm was actually doing fairly well, and everyone at court was happy while Viserys lived.) Nor should he be blamed for a civil war that should not have happened given that he made his wishes clear, even if he helped contribute to problems by giving different symbols of authority to his designated heir Rhaenyra and her half-brother Aegon, partly due to his generous nature. That said, he did not have the traits one would want or expect of a good king, and I don't deny that was one of the reasons that the Dance of the Dragons happened. I just don't think it was a major factor, and neither was he a bad king. (Although, of course, Rhaenys should have been queen over him. That would have avoided the Dance entirely and generally been much better for the realm.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said: On that note, I think the show did a poor job of portraying this motif, because they made it akin to Robert I's court with the rats in the woodwork. It was more the calm before the storm, where the realm was actually doing fairly well, and everyone at court was happy while Viserys lived.) Eh, whereas I do agree it was never that bad, given that the Greens were always planning on doing their own thing, the bad blood between Rhaenyra and her children and Alicent and her children and some Velaryons believing they got shafted. There were plenty of rats in the woodwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many-Faced Votary Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 2 minutes ago, frenin said: Eh, whereas I do agree it was never that bad, given that the Greens were always planning on doing their own thing, the bad blood between Rhaenyra and her children and Alicent and her children and some Velaryons believing they got shafted. There were plenty of rats in the woodwork. Fair enough! There was something festering for a certainty. Although even then, the way they expressed the court on the show just felt wrong. But that's the least of the unpleasant changes, though I digress, as this isn't the place for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Viserys biggest mistake, was giving Otto Hightower his job back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 11 minutes ago, sifth said: Viserys biggest mistake, was giving Otto Hightower his job back. Definitively. Surely there were other suitable options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timstark69 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 On 2/22/2023 at 8:17 AM, James Steller said: I've wrestled with this question for a while (and no, I have not watched HOTD yet, I'm only going by the book version). From what Gyldayn says about him, Viserys really doesn't come off as a good king. The stability and prosperousness of his reign can't really be credited to him, can they? It was Jaehaerys who healed the realm and ruled it justly (though I do have issues with Jaehaerys as well). Back on topic, though, Viserys really strikes me as a man who lived fat on his grandfather's laurels. He also sowed the seeds for a conflict so destructive that it nearly obliterated his family. But that said, I don't think I can hold him fully responsible for what happened either. True, he did willfully avoid the serious issues that were tearing his family apart, but his being decisive wouldn't have fixed everything either. I read one book after I saw a review of it here https://papersowl.com/examples/a-raisin-in-the-sun/, and some comparison can be made. In the book A Raisin in the Sun, Chicago is somewhat reminiscent of Viserys. Howewer, disowning Rhaenyra would have caused a whole bunch of issues, as would his not remarrying after Aemma died. It feels like he was damned no matter what he did. Anyone else have thoughts on this topic? He preferred to avoid confrontation and delegate responsibility, which allowed many of the problems in the realm to fester and eventually explode during the Dance of the Dragons. He was not a particularly proactive or effective one either. He inherited a realm that was relatively stable and prosperous thanks in large part to the efforts of his grandfather and was content to maintain the status quo rather than taking bold action to address the underlying problems in the realm. He may not have been a bad king for his time, but he was absolutely not far-sighted, this is his biggest problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 46 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Definitively. Surely there were other suitable options. The Sea Snake being the ideal choice, IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 1 hour ago, timstark69 said: He preferred to avoid confrontation and delegate responsibility, which allowed many of the problems in the realm to fester and eventually explode during the Dance of the Dragons. He was not a particularly proactive or effective one either. He inherited a realm that was relatively stable and prosperous thanks in large part to the efforts of his grandfather and was content to maintain the status quo rather than taking bold action to address the underlying problems in the realm. He may not have been a bad king for his time, but he was absolutely not far-sighted, this is his biggest problem. If it ain't broke, don't touch it. The only underlying problem in the Realm was that of his succesion... and he was incredibly proactive in that area, many would say maybe a bit too much. He made his wishes clear, he was ignored and the result was war. That is not ultimately his fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Just now, frenin said: If it ain't broke, don't touch it. The problem is that he did touch it. The guy kept changing the most sensible topic about feudal nobility. Sucession. He had no problems in his reing but he made sure that his sucessor would have plenty... a true moron. If wasn't for Joffrey he might be the dumbest person to ever sit on the IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: The problem is that he did touch it. The guy kept changing the most sensible topic about feudal nobility. Sucession. He had no problems in his reing but he made sure that his sucessor would have plenty... a true moron. If wasn't for Joffrey he might be the dumbest person to ever sit on the IT. He had to touch it, he had to get Daemon out of the way, by the time Aegon was born, half the Realm had swore to protect Rhaenyra's claim and she was his heir apparent. From then on, he could open more can of worms or deal with one already open. He expected his will to prevail, nt really his fault they waited until he was dead to pull a uno card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 I am going back to the old days when we could not refer to the thing that could not be named. ***DISCLAIMER*** I have been rather pleasantly corrupted by yet another slanted history in the viewing of said unnamed thing. With that in mind all we really have to go on is slanted history given by slanted historians. Now the nice thing about these slanted histories is the opposing stories which tells us the historians don't know what happened. Viserys I managed to have a peaceful reign which I think is a pretty big deal. Yes, yes, he took over following his famous grandparents, but he kept their peace and not everyone enjoyed their peace. We know what jerks the nobility of Westeros are. That never seems to change. Jahaerys shoulda, woulda, coulda. The Great Council shoulda, woulda, coulda. Viserys is how it all turned out, for better or worse. Personally, The Sea Snake in supreme power is a bit frightening a prospect in my estimation, but that's propaganda for you. The real snake in this story is Otto Hightower and his never ending buggery. Viserys was able to name and convince the jerks of Westeros, including the Hightowers, to accept Rhaenyra as heir to the throne. I'd say Viserys did some pretty bold movement there. It might have even worked had he just not remarried and further procreated. Listening to the counsel caused most of his reputation and the more damage to Targaryen power than he could ever know. Poor slob. I think if Daemon or Rhaenyra were half as bad as they are written to be, Otto or Allicent or both would have met with disappearance or death in the early days. Neither did. They lived and thrived. While my jury is still out on Allicent, I am completely convinced that Otto deserved death and exile and worse a hundred times over for his crimes against a peaceful king as well as his heirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 12 minutes ago, frenin said: He had to touch it, he had to get Daemon out of the way, by the time Aegon was born, half the Realm had swore to protect Rhaenyra's claim and she was his heir apparent. He was young and had plenty of years to sire a heir, like he did it in the end. When he insisted on going against, precendent, law, tradition, the advice of his hand and kept ignoring the kids mangling each other in the yard. 13 minutes ago, frenin said: From then on, he could open more can of worms or deal with one already open. He expected his will to prevail, nt really his fault they waited until he was dead to pull a uno card. He own hand was cleary against that will, told him numerous times to change it, several other people did the same. Rhaenyra was choosen to kept Daemon away from the throne, then she married him... and Viserys ignored that. The man lacked common sense, he caused the problems and ignored any council that could solve that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 4 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: He was young and had plenty of years to sire a heir, like he did it in the end. Because as we know from both history and the books. Young people do not die before theot time. 5 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: When he insisted on going against, precendent, law, tradition, the advice of his hand and kept ignoring the kids mangling each other in the yard. He had already gone against precedent and tradition by ignoring Daemon, he could not just reverse that without causing more problems. And he did not ignore his kids mangling each other in the yard, he did everything he possibly to keep peace between them. Except the only peace Alicent and her kids could accept was the throne and Rhaenyra and her kids would die before giving it up. 8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Rhaenyra was choosen to kept Daemon away from the throne, then she married him... and Viserys ignored that. The man lacked common sense, he caused the problems and ignored any council that could solve that. Daemon would not be on the throne, he'd be consort. I do not know why people keep insisting on this thing. Daemon's actual power during the war was that Rhaenyra deferred to him and he was overruled plenty for good or ill. No one thought he was in charge over his wife. Viserys did not ignore that, he was displeased but it's not like he could just disown both Rhaenyra and the Velaryons. What can he do after Rhaenyra is married, honestly. give me your best answer. He did not ignore any council that could have solve it. That's just false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 8 minutes ago, frenin said: He had already gone against precedent and tradition by ignoring Daemon, he could not just reverse that without causing more problems. Nothing too radical. A daughter in the majority of the cases comes before a brother. But only in Dorne a daughter comes before a son. 10 minutes ago, frenin said: Viserys did not ignore that, he was displeased but it's not like he could just disown both Rhaenyra and the Velaryons. What can he do after Rhaenyra is married, honestly. give me your best answer. He had the chance to marry Rhaenyra and Aegon and ignored it. That simple change would solve everything, and it was offered to him and as a moron he rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Nothing too radical. A daughter in the majority of the cases comes before a brother. But only in Dorne a daughter comes before a son. It is too radical tho, since already half the realm was sworn to her. 9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: He had the chance to marry Rhaenyra and Aegon and ignored it. That simple change would solve everything, and it was offered to him and as a moron he rejected. And keep pissing off the dragon lords (with a very strong claim to the throne) Velaryons. Moron he is. Quote He own hand was cleary against that will, told him numerous times to change it, several other people did the same. Doesn't really matter to the topic at hand, His own Hand and courtiers disagreed with a number of things. Viserys never changed his mind on succesion and he always intended for Rhaenyra and her sons to follow him. Now, given that most of the Realm wasn't against Rhaenyra sitting on the throne and the amount of dragons she had, the choice was ignoring Viserys's clear wishes and walking over his corpse and start a war or not. He cannot be blamed for the things that happened after his death, it is not like any major party involved in the fighting did not know what Viserys wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 18 minutes ago, frenin said: He cannot be blamed for the things that happened after his death, it is not like any major party involved in the fighting did not know what Viserys wanted. He can and he should be blamed. It was very clear the factions forming even using colors, the kids destroying each other in the yard, even the KG was splitting and taking sides. He ignored all that, pushed aside anything that could lead to peace, gave dragons to both sides, kept people that were against the will with the responsability of holding it, and kept messing around making everything worse. It's not a acident that even after the Greens lost, Aegon still counted as the king during that mess. Nobody cared for what Viserys wanted because he did not care about others either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: He can and he should be blamed. For having heirs? For Daemon forcing his hand? For everyone ignoring his orders when he could no longer do anything to stop them? He's not blameless mind you but acting as if the Dance rests on his shoulders is asinine. 3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: It was very clear the factions forming even using colors, the kids destroying each other in the yard, even the KG was splitting and taking sides. And he tried to put an end to all that, but bar killing his own kin, there is a limit what he can do. 4 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: He ignored all that, He did not. This is blatantly false. 5 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: gave dragons to both sides, Gave dragons to his sons before he knew they would be trouble. There was absolutely nothing he could to prevent Rhaenyra's children and the Velaryons for claiming dragons tho. As they were in possesion of adult dragons that laid eggs anyway. 7 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: kept people that were against the will with the responsability of holding it, One would assume that Otto agreed to Viserys's will once he was reappointed and others such as Ironrod kept his mouth shut. He had little reason to doubt Strong or Tyland. 8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: and kept messing around making everything worse. Not really no. Are you just repeating what was answered before? If this is becoming a daft's people dialogue, then we better end it. 9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: It's not a acident that even after the Greens lost, Aegon still counted as the king during that mess. It very much is, yeah. 9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Nobody cared for what Viserys wanted because he did not care about others either. More than half the Realm supported and fighted for Viserys's chosen heir and her descendants. This comment makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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