Arthur Peres Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, frenin said: For having heirs? For Daemon forcing his hand? For everyone ignoring his orders when he could no longer do anything to stop them? For changing the most sensible topic in a feudal society on petty whims. Jaeharys when did that, was after a great council with all nobles chosing, not imposing his will on them. Viserys should have learned from that. 5 minutes ago, frenin said: More than half the Realm supported and fighted for Viserys's chosen heir and her descendants. This comment makes no sense. Most of the Blacks fought only after being promised rewards. Cregan only moved after being promised a match, Greyjoys were moved by the promised of looting. None cared for Viserys to a point the people that did swore the oath like Grover Tully wanted to support Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Viserys I was clearly a very good king. He ruled during an era of peace and prosperity and splendour for 26 years. You don't do that if you are incompetent or bad. Jaehaerys' works didn't continue themselves. Somebody had to actively do that. And Viserys did that. With the help of his council, etc. but he was the one in charge. How important the role of the king is you can see when court and Realm go from competent oversight (Viserys II) to blatant corruption and misrule (Aegon IV) and back to competent rule (Daeron II). Insofar as the succession struggle is concerned the best parallel would be Robert - but he is clearly a much worse king since he did not only actively fuel factionalism at his own court which he then ignored ... but he also beggared the Crown - whilst Viserys I saw the factionalism at his court, tried to stop it, and failed ... while not also putting the Crown in massive debt. Instead he left a full treasury. Which actually shows how prosperous his reign must have been since he must have also spent a lot of money for all the feasts and tourney and balls he had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 14 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: For changing the most sensible topic in a feudal society on petty whims. Yourn only heir being a dangerous psycho is not a petty reason. 15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Jaeharys when did that, was after a great council with all nobles chosing, not imposing his will on them. Viserys should have learned from that. Yeah no, Jaeharys shouted a healthy and loud fuck you to his granddaughter and chose Baelon instead. Even when both her, the Velaryons and Baratheons told him they did not accept his decision The only reason Jaeharys did not choose Viserys right off the bat was because he literally saw both parties calling for war regardless of his decision. This is not a situation Viserys had to face, some grumbled sure but the Realm largely accepted his decision regarding his sucession and Alicent and her kids also, officially at least, agreed to it. 19 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Most of the Blacks fought only after being promised rewards. Same goes for the Greens, wdym? No one goes to war against dragons without something to gain. If no one cared abot Viserys however, the Great Lords would do just as Eustace said and ignore Rhaenyra, forcing her to accept Aegon by default. 22 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: None cared for Viserys to a point the people that did swore the oath like Grover Tully wanted to support Aegon. Plenty of Lords in the Crownlands, Stormlands, Riverlands or the Reach would disagree with you but i'm guessing you do not care either for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 1 minute ago, frenin said: The only reason Jaeharys did not choose Viserys right off the bat was because he literally saw both parties calling for war regardless of his decision. Sounds familiar... Greens vs Blacks ring a bell ?. Jaeharys was right, Viserys was wrong. If Viserys wanted Daemon out of the sucession he should send him to the wall, or kept trying to sire another son, or called a council like Jaeharys did. 8 minutes ago, frenin said: Same goes for the Greens, wdym? yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Sounds familiar... Greens vs Blacks ring a bell ?. Literally the opposite of what happened. 6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Jaeharys was right, Viserys was wrong. Different context, different characters, different outcome. The Velaryons accepted, the Hightowers never did. Hence why one had peace the other war. 8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: If Viserys wanted Daemon out of the sucession he should send him to the wall, or kept trying to sire another son, or called a council like Jaeharys did. Send him to the Wall under what pretense? lol. By that point Viserys is a dragonrider. He did try to have more children, the thing about childre however... is that they die. Called a council for what exactly? 9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: yes. You're not making any sense man, just ranting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 6 minutes ago, frenin said: You're not making any sense man, just ranting. So when I agree with you in one point I make no sense? good, seems like not even you agree with your point. 7 minutes ago, frenin said: Send him to the Wall under what pretense? lol. By that point Viserys is a dragonrider. I think you mean Daemon was a dragonrider right? Take him away when he isn't near his dragon... it's not like he lives on top of the beast. It had plenty of reasons to send Daemon to the wall, the abuse of the people of KL by the goldcloaks under his supervision. Or the death of the "Bronze bitch", or deserting and trying to carve up his own failed kingdom in the stepstones. Viserys seems worry about Daemon until he isn't. He never takes action against the man. Changing the whole sucession because of that was the wrong move and the results speaks for themselfs. 11 minutes ago, frenin said: He did try to have more children, the thing about childre however... is that they die. Ironic that such a tragedy would be a blessing... Rhaenyra, Aegon, Aemond, Daeron, Helaena, all survived. 13 minutes ago, frenin said: Called a council for what exactly? Avoid a sucession war? like the one that happened... like the one Jaeharys avoided by calling a council and letting the vast majority resolve the question. 14 minutes ago, frenin said: Different context Pretty much the same situation, confusing sucession that needed to be clarified or could lead to a war with dragons involved. 15 minutes ago, frenin said: different characters, different outcome Yes, one is Jaeharys, the best king to sit on the IT and unifying that mess, solved everything, lead to peace and prosperity. The other is Viserys one of the worst kings, that set up a civil war that ended the biggest asset of his dynasty. 17 minutes ago, frenin said: The Velaryons accepted, the Hightowers never did. The council let clear that the Velaryons would not receive any support around the Kingdom and that their cause was lost. The Hightowers did received plenty of support, and their cause was very much possible. A great council with a great majority going for either Rhaenyra (unlikely) or Aegon II (the most probably outcome) would solve that. Instead Viserys let Otto to hold his will, going against his own blood and tradition in Aegon... I wonder what could go wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: I think you mean Daemon was a dragonrider right? Take him away when he isn't near his dragon... it's not like he lives on top of the beast. It had plenty of reasons to send Daemon to the wall, the abuse of the people of KL by the goldcloaks under his supervision. Or the death of the "Bronze bitch", or deserting and trying to carve up his own failed kingdom in the stepstones. Viserys seems worry about Daemon until he isn't. He never takes action against the man. Changing the whole sucession because of that was the wrong move and the results speaks for themselfs. What if his dragon just follows him tho? Nothing Daemon did was illegal, cruel sure but not illegal. Viserys's only concern towards Daemon is regarding on whether he is or isn't his heir, pass that, he is very chill with his brother's idiocies because he is assured they are not going to afect the Realm at large. 6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Pretty much the same situation, confusing sucession that needed to be clarified or could lead to a war with dragons involved. Not really the same situation tho. The only reason Jaeharys called the Great Council was because war was starting before his very eyes (as in, both paries were publicly and actively advocating for it), the same is not true for Viserys. Jaeharys was more than happy to ignore dissent while Baelon was alive. 8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Ironic that such a tragedy would be a blessing... Rhaenyra, Aegon, Aemond, Daeron, Helaena, all survived. Sure, he had no way to know that when he made his choices. 9 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Avoid a sucession war? like the one that happened... like the one Jaeharys avoided by calling a council and letting the vast majority resolve the question. To disinherit Daemon? Jaeharys called for a council because there was doubt about who his succesor was after Baelon died and bloodshed s eemed inevitable. Viserys had no such problem, until after his death that is, because the Realm seemingly accepted his decision of having his daughter succeed him. Btw that the only reason that war was averted in the Council was because it overwhelmingly favoured one party. Else it could and would be safely ignored. 14 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: The other is Viserys one of the worst kings, that set up a civil war that ended the biggest asset of his dynasty. Ranting. 14 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: The council let clear that the Velaryons would not receive any support around the Kingdom and that their cause was lost. The Hightowers did received plenty of support, and their cause was very much possible. So the Council was pretty much stupid then. 15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: A great council with a great majority going for either Rhaenyra (unlikely) or Aegon II (the most probably outcome) would solve that. And what if the Great Council actually giving neither a clear majority. We have war anyways. Btw, Far more lords supported Rhaenyra than otherwise. The idea that it is the most probably outcome is Aegon winning is wishful thinking. 18 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Instead Viserys let Otto to hold his will, going against his own blood and tradition in Aegon... I wonder what could go wrong? It is not as if Viserys could control when he died. A couple of days later. Rhaenyra and her family are all presenting her new daughter to the court and the coup becomes pretty much impossible to pull. C'est la vie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 I don't think he was that bad but I don't think he was the best either. Also dividing symbols of power among different 'heirs' was a really silly thing to do. We see it again with Aegon IV and surprise surprise, it leads to another succession war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 8 minutes ago, frenin said: Btw, Far more lords supported Rhaenyra than otherwise. The idea that it is the most probably outcome is Aegon winning is wishful thinking. You can see it that way. I don't see them going to favor a daughter against a son when the previous council made the decision in favor of the male line. 14 minutes ago, frenin said: And what if the Great Council actually giving neither a clear majority. We have war anyways. It's a risk, but I find it unlikely. The two great councils made, the one that choose Viserys and the one that choose Aegon V were clear majorities. About the rest we will never agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oldstones Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 He was an oaf and a very bad King, turning blind eye to everything. He did nothing for Targ dynasty and leeched off Jaehaerys's peace and stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 50 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: You can see it that way. I don't see them going to favor a daughter against a son when the previous council made the decision in favor of the male line. And yet they overwhelmingly supported her over her brother of the male line. Perhaps things do change with different context. 52 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: The two great councils made, the one that choose Viserys and the one that choose Aegon V were clear majorities. You and context, context and you. The first council was between a child of the female line and an adult of the male line who was also married to the Arryns. The second council was between two toddlers, one of them mentally handicapped and an Adult man with adult heirs. This is between a man of the male line and a woman most of the Realm already had pledged to support her anyway and actually favoured her. Nothing about that scream majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 2 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Viserys I was clearly a very good king. He ruled during an era of peace and prosperity and splendour for 26 years. You don't do that if you are incompetent or bad. Jaehaerys' works didn't continue themselves. Somebody had to actively do that. And Viserys did that. With the help of his council, etc. but he was the one in charge. How important the role of the king is you can see when court and Realm go from competent oversight (Viserys II) to blatant corruption and misrule (Aegon IV) and back to competent rule (Daeron II). Insofar as the succession struggle is concerned the best parallel would be Robert - but he is clearly a much worse king since he did not only actively fuel factionalism at his own court which he then ignored ... but he also beggared the Crown - whilst Viserys I saw the factionalism at his court, tried to stop it, and failed ... while not also putting the Crown in massive debt. Instead he left a full treasury. Which actually shows how prosperous his reign must have been since he must have also spent a lot of money for all the feasts and tourney and balls he had. Agreed. I think that people see the line that "the seeds of the Dance were sown in Viserys's reign" and assume that means the Dance was his fault, whereas in fact he was probably the one thing that stopped war breaking out even sooner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 In context, it also makes little sense to claim Viserys' will didn't prevail. He wanted Rhaenyra and then her sons to succeed him - and that's what happened. Yes, Rhaenyra only kind of succeeded him and she and her elder sons died during the war, but Aegon III prevailed. That is clearly also what Viserys would have wanted if we extrapolate his wishes from that scene where he took Jace up with him on the throne and told him he would sit there one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Not a necessarily bad king, just the wrong man for the wrong time. Replace Aerys with him and give him Rhaegar as an heir and I think he’s just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Most kings beggar the realm at most while he was a beggar king himself… oh wait, we’re talking about that other one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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