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Was Nettles Daemon's daughter?


Alester Florent
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Or at least, did he believe she was?

There's not a lot of evidence one way or the other and we will probably never know the truth, but the father/daughter relationship seems to make more sense with the circumstances and what we know of Daemon than the romantic explanation for their closeness. Don't get me wrong, I can absolutely buy Daemon shagging a girl less than half his age, but the details seem off. When she's given a death sentence, and leaves, he isn't just a bit upset, he basically commits suicide. Caraxes is also peculiarly upset. This speaks of a particular closeness, more than one would expect for an affair lasting a few months, and especially for a man of the world such as Daemon.

And after all, what was he expecting to happen? Assuming the Blacks win the war, then Rhaenyra is queen, who isn't going anywhere, and even if he killed her (which would seem out of character) then his own son is next in line. There's no future in a relationship with Nettles even in the best-case scenario. Nothing worth mourning to the extent he does.

Nor can we call her "the daughter he never had" or the like, because he has daughters, and Baela in particular is a sufficient chip off the old block that he shouldn't need to go finding surrogate children in random bastards. But if there's one thing Daemon does seem to care about, it's family. And Nettles, if his, would be not only his child, but his oldest child, giving her a particular status. There might be an element of his making up for lost time, but also of training her up so she can take her "rightful" place at court after the war.

A belief of this type on Daemon's part might also go some way to explain why the Blacks deploy their dragons so poorly after the capture of King's Landing. Assuming they want their four most powerful dragons in the field (and assuming also that Sheepstealer is more potent than Seasmoke) and that they need to be grouped for security, in retrospect it always looks like a liability to put the two most obviously loyal dragonriders together, and the two mercenaries together. There is perhaps a legitimate reason for pairing Vermithor and Silverwing, but this decision is utterly disastrous and the sort of thing you might expect someone like Daemon to anticipate... But if he believes Nettles to be his child, then keeping her by his side where he can protect her (not to mention teach her important stuff) would assume paramount importance and perhaps overshadow any caution he might otherwise have about the two betrayers.

She could of course be another close family member but not his... but then whose? Only Daemon and Viserys are adult male Targs around the time of Nettles's birth, and of the two Daemon seems by far the more likely candidate, for various, mostly obvious, reasons. After that we're getting into cousins. There's Corlys Velaryon, but why would Daemon care about Corlys's bastard girl when Corlys himself doesnt seem to? And Laenor. Now, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Laena on her deathbed (who Daemon seemed to care for) extracted an oath that he would look after Laenor's kids like his own - which might go some way to explain why he reacted so surprisingly strongly to the deaths of his stepsons - and that conceivably Nettles was Laenor's bastard and therefore fell within the scope of the oath... but Laenor does not seem like the kind of man who fathers bastards, for, again, obvious reasons. Addam Velaryon's parentage was rightly doubted.

Of all the explanations I can think of for why Daemon and Nettles played out like they did, this is the one that seems to me to make the most sense. As I say, we'll almost certainly never learn the truth (hard to see how it would ever come up) but is there anything I'm missing - or does anyone else have any thoughts on the subject.

 

P.S. For those wedded to Mushroom's story, I should note that just because she was his daughter doesn't mean he didn't shag her. He is a Targaryen, after all. :stillsick:

 

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20 minutes ago, Adelstein said:

P.S. For those wedded to Mushroom's story, I should note that just because she was his daughter doesn't mean he didn't shag her. He is a Targaryen, after all. :stillsick:

:ack:

Even the Targaryens with the most... filial piety... didn't practice parent-child incest. (In fact, the "Doctrine of Exceptionalism" really just applied to brother-sister incest, since uncle-niece and aunt-nephew incest was and still is common throughout Westeros [or at least the North?], and of course first cousin incest isn't considered incest in Westeros.)

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7 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

/cdn-cgi/mirage/6dc3d3eb1a38505cabd90fb7ffd43995f14702a0df4cf40d6136ae67a48e140e/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_ack.gif

Even the Targaryens with the most... filial piety... didn't practice parent-child incest. (In fact, the "Doctrine of Exceptionalism" really just applied to brother-sister incest, since uncle-niece and aunt-nephew incest was and still is common throughout Westeros [or at least the North?], and of course first cousin incest isn't considered incest in Westeros.)

I was thinking the sexual relationship was pure fabrication in this scenario

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Daemon gets a really bad rap in all this historical retelling.  He is very supportive of Rhaenyra, his significantly younger niece wife.  Why is it hard to believe he wouldn't find some unrelated younger person simply attractive to his hero bone and he would do right by her?  Maybe he had a sexual thing with a person well over the age of consent in this time and maybe he didn't.  Maybe he was her mentor.  Maybe he was her only friend.  Maybe he was a lot of things.  All I know is he is the one who got Nettles safely away from danger as she ended up being the only one he loved he really could save.  

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I like to think she’s not only not his daughter but not a dragonseed  in any way either, where the point is that non-Targs can ride dragons after all. :eek:

Edited by kissdbyfire
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I like to think she was his daughter and they never banged. People saw how close he was to her, didn't assume that she was his kid and their salacious little minds filled in the blanks with the usual filth. I do like Kissedbyfire's idea that she was proof of a non targ dragon rider, but I like to believe that even a guy like Daemon Targaryan might still have decent impulses and relations within his family.

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This was the only part of Daemon’s arc where I found him compelling, in the book. The completely war-wearied warrior, the husband who finally understands his wife’s ~ true desperation and/or narcissism, the old cynic at the end finding what pleasure he can in the simplicity of a father-daughter connection, even if it’s more adopted than factual. And of course the need to win, in the end, surpassing all of these, or maybe just a decision to end it and take the other side’s greatest weapon with you.

This is the only phase where he finally had real shades of the inner complexity of his model Oberyn.
 

On the issue of adopted or real, I don’t think we’ll ever know, unless the Burned Man Rising happens. And, although it might have mattered to them, I’m not sure how much it matters to us…I think, when reading, that it’s importantly a platonic or familial one, as Rhaenyra’s reaction seems to be his final straw in a way I don’t think he feels if he really is having an affair. The latter might make sense if you read his sad, stoic resignation as a realization that he’s not built to be happy, at least not in the life he has chosen, but it did not have imo have that tone.
 

I think, rather, he saw that the conflict had become endemic to Rhaenyra, that whether it’s ambition/over-indulgence/narcissism, trauma or just too much disappointment and betrayal, I think he finally sees here that, like Cersei near the end of the show, she is entirely about conflict and suspicion and will suspect anyone who tries to stop her conflicting, that no real life win, not the IT or anything will actually live up to the cost and because of that she can never let herself stop fighting. Because that’s when she’ll have to face the costs. He has been able to live his life like that because he’s built differently than most, but Rhaenyra was not and it broke her. 
 

Note, this is not me saying everything was her fault; far from it. I think the greatness of F&B is that, like the Anarchy it’s based on…and rather like most wars, with WWII being the tragically exploited exception…there was no clear good or bad side. Both sides had legit reasons to act as they did, as did both monarchs. One of the saddest moments, because it has soooooo many RL historical echoes, is when Aegon is only convinced to stake his claim because his very existence means her rule will always be challenged and therefore his life and those of his children will never be safe under her rule, completely regardless of his having any actual ambitions. This is the reality of familial feudal power; your family are your protection from others playing the game, but once your family wins they become your greatest threat. Even if Rhaenyra herself would have gone her whole life without listening to whispers of treason, or blamed Aegon for any risings ‘in his name’ or w/e, we can be much more certain someone from her circle (especially Daemon) would decide a few quick and quiet deaths would save a lot of trouble and potential civil war. 
 

On that basis, even if they were exaggerating the immediate threat she posed, the people who told Aegon win or die weren’t deceiving him…he would never rest easy again under her rule, because being the eldest male claimant he was born in the game whether or not he wants to play. It’s this kind of realistic (sorry, overused but useful) grey setting of grey characters with real motivations that make the Dance/Anarchy so compelling. I was disappointed but not surprised the show makers chose to lean heavily towards bad/wrong vs. good/right, I think that’s how Western/mostly American audiences prefer thinking…yet another WWII legacy…and interestingly it was done kinda like the original show did the opposite, by taking a character’s (Cersei) worst actions and either just assigning them to someone else…usually Joffrey…or portraying them as very mitigated by circumstance.
 

HotD was clever with some of the ways they did that, while treading that narrow path of truth between all the book’s conflicting sources. Good tv writing, but it disappointed me enough that after Laenor’s ‘murder’ I lost interest in the show for a while, even while thinking they made good and creative tv choices. 
 

/tangent 

Edited by James Arryn
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5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I like to think she’s not only not his daughter but not a dragonseed  in any way either, where the point is that non-Targs can ride dragons after all. :eek:

I'm not sure I see the point to that point, story-wise.  As I see it, either Nettles (1) has Targ heritage; (2) has the heritage of a non-Targ dragonlord; or (3) has a "gift from the gods" or other freak talent.   And I don't see how we are ever going to find out which of these is true, or what difference it makes.

But I don't think anyone and his brother can ride a dragon.

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  • 1 month later...

I’ve heard some interpretations of his character on tiktok and other sites. I think it pulls from the show as well. But Daemon seems like the guy who would do anything and everything for who he considers his family. And all he really wants in acknowledgement and to be loved by said family. 
 

I really like that interpretation of his character. 

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57 minutes ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

I’ve heard some interpretations of his character on tiktok and other sites. I think it pulls from the show as well. But Daemon seems like the guy who would do anything and everything for who he considers his family. And all he really wants in acknowledgement and to be loved by said family. 
 

I really like that interpretation of his character. 

One of the key differences between HotD and GoT, as adaptations, is that GoT was adapting novels written with a great deal of scene-detail, and PoV narratives which allow us to see inside characters' heads as well as extensive dialogue between them, whereas HotD is adapting histories drawn in much broader strokes. It is in some ways much harder to get an idea of Daemon's character from the texts than it is even a minor character like Merrett Frey. This gives the show rather more space to come up with character interpretations, because they're inventing the things like dialogue, facial expressions, tone of voice  out of whole cloth, whereas in ASoIaF it is often given to us.

Going only from the books, we therefore have a fairly wide leeway to interpret Daemon's character. The show narrows the scope rather, but in terms of discussion that can sometimes actually be helpful.

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55 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Going only from the books, we therefore have a fairly wide leeway to interpret Daemon's character. The show narrows the scope rather, but in terms of discussion that can sometimes actually be helpful.

yeah but the "Daemon cares about his family" angle is still a massive reach. 

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I think that if she was, there’d at least have been some indication of it in the text, but there wasn’t. If anything, I find it much more likely that Nettles is supposed to show how you don’t need Valyrian blood to tame a dragon, and Targaryen genetic supremacy is a lie. Unfortunately, a lot of fans love the idea of a genetically superior incest race.

Based on what I’ve seen online, Daemon-is-Nettles-father has become a popular theory among Daemyra stans who don’t want to believe Daemon would ever cheat on Rhaenyra, especially with someone who isn’t a perfect inbred Valyrian specimen (choking is okay, but not miscegeny). When he does cheat on ‘Nyra, they’ll go back to trying to cancel Ryan Condal and Sarah Hess.

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37 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think that if she was, there’d at least have been some indication of it in the text, but there wasn’t. If anything, I find it much more likely that Nettles is supposed to show how you don’t need Valyrian blood to tame a dragon, and Targaryen genetic supremacy is a lie. Unfortunately, a lot of fans love the idea of a genetically superior incest race.

:agree:

I don't know why people like the idea of Targaryen supremacism though...

Edited by Craving Peaches
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46 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Based on what I’ve seen online, Daemon-is-Nettles-father has become a popular theory among Daemyra stans who don’t want to believe Daemon would ever cheat on Rhaenyra, especially with someone who isn’t a perfect inbred Valyrian specimen (choking is okay, but not miscegeny). When he does cheat on ‘Nyra, they’ll go back to trying to cancel Ryan Condal and Sarah Hess.

As I say above, I can totally buy Daemon cheating on Rhaenyra. What I find tougher to explain is why, if this was just an affair, he's so attached to this particular bit of skirt that he's only known for a few months that his dragon mourns her departure and when he realises he's never going to see her again he basically gives up on life. He's too old and too worldly for that to be a plausible response to a straightforward breakup.

So either I think she was some kind of sorceress, or there was some kind of connexion between them that the histories didn't pick up, and his believing she was his daughter (but not making this public knowledge) would, to my mind, make sense of all of it.

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8 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

As I say above, I can totally buy Daemon cheating on Rhaenyra. What I find tougher to explain is why, if this was just an affair, he's so attached to this particular bit of skirt that he's only known for a few months that his dragon mourns her departure and when he realises he's never going to see her again he basically gives up on life. He's too old and too worldly for that to be a plausible response to a straightforward breakup.

So either I think she was some kind of sorceress, or there was some kind of connexion between them that the histories didn't pick up, and his believing she was his daughter (but not making this public knowledge) would, to my mind, make sense of all of it.

It’s kind of similar to Jaime and Brienne though. Brienne is an unattractive, insecure, tongue-tied teenager who nevertheless managed to puncture the cold exterior of the Kingslayer, who already has a sexy queen as his lover. Or the Hound, who despises chivalry and knighthood and romance but becomes infatuated with someone who embodies all of that. I think it’s just a GRRM thing.

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think that if she was, there’d at least have been some indication of it in the text, but there wasn’t. If anything, I find it much more likely that Nettles is supposed to show how you don’t need Valyrian blood to tame a dragon, and Targaryen genetic supremacy is a lie. Unfortunately, a lot of fans love the idea of a genetically superior incest race.

That is not what it shows. There are black and brown Targaryens already with the Black Pearls. Nettles was very prominent from the start because she and Baela were mentioned in that review which was published before TPatQ came out. But as a person she is in no way different from Ulf and Hugh (Addam and Alyn are different in the sense that they are adopted into House Velaryon). Okay, Ulf does seem to have Valyrian hair, so he is different there. But we don't know how Hugh looked like, nor do we know why either of those men could mount a dragon.

If George wanted to send a clear message that dragons are for everyone we would have gotten such a case. And we would have seen much more paranoia on the side of the Targaryens that other people find out that dragonriding is actually no special ability.

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Based on what I’ve seen online, Daemon-is-Nettles-father has become a popular theory among Daemyra stans who don’t want to believe Daemon would ever cheat on Rhaenyra, especially with someone who isn’t a perfect inbred Valyrian specimen (choking is okay, but not miscegeny). When he does cheat on ‘Nyra, they’ll go back to trying to cancel Ryan Condal and Sarah Hess.

For me this became a popular theory the moment I read the full account of the Dance in the FaB manuscript. It is just the way it is told, the role Mysaria plays in the scheme (which, in the book, could be her revenge for Daemon killing their unborn child when he shipped her back to Lys - something she might have wanted to do after she found out the guy was now playing the loving father to the child of another whore), and the general description of the situation at Maidenpool.

Not sure why anyone on the 'net would have issues with Nettles-Daemon as a couple when the asshole already cheats on Rhaenyra with Mysaria.

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s kind of similar to Jaime and Brienne though. Brienne is an unattractive, insecure, tongue-tied teenager who nevertheless managed to puncture the cold exterior of the Kingslayer, who already has a sexy queen as his lover. Or the Hound, who despises chivalry and knighthood and romance but becomes infatuated with someone who embodies all of that. I think it’s just a GRRM thing.

That is so to a point - but I think people are fooling themselves if they assume that Jaime and Brienne could ever be a loving couple. Jaime might care for her to a point, perhaps even more than he cares for Cersei at the moment, but they have no future. And any sex between them would be awkward as hell, not just because of Brienne's inexperience and general awkwardness, but also because Jaime Lannister wouldn't really be attracted to her body.

Ditto even more so with Sansa and Sandor.

4 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

As I say above, I can totally buy Daemon cheating on Rhaenyra. What I find tougher to explain is why, if this was just an affair, he's so attached to this particular bit of skirt that he's only known for a few months that his dragon mourns her departure and when he realises he's never going to see her again he basically gives up on life. He's too old and too worldly for that to be a plausible response to a straightforward breakup.

It is actually very weird in both scenarios, but we can assume he would send his daughter away to keep her safe ... while for a lover he would likely fight. If he had a romantic/sexual thing with Nettles then it would stand to reason she had replaced both Rhaenyra and Mysaria in his heart, so he would actually not care that those women were turning on him there. But if Nettles was his daughter then their actions are a kind of ultimate betrayal, something that could affect him on a deeper level causing him to decide that for him there is no longer any joy in his life if the women he loves plan to murder his daughter.

The notion that the Aemond confrontation has any political meaning, is done to help Rhaenyra or young Aegon or his daughters is just utter nonsense. The guy just threw away his life in a grand and pointless gesture. It is like Tywin getting himself killed in a duel with Stannis.

The daughter theory could also explain why Nettles joined Daemon on his mission and/or why he took her with him. They first meet after Rhaenyra takes KL and it would stand to reason that Nettles would approach Daemon about her mother/parentage sometime after she made his acquaintance. Considering Nettles' later disappearance one could also easily imagine she only ever tried to mount a dragon to prove to her father who she was. She never does anything with Sheepstealer after she parted from Daemon ... something a person with other ambitions might very well have done. After the Dance there were effectively no dragonriders left, so Nettles could have become a real power in her own right. Hell, she could have even married Prince Viserys after Larra left him and eventually died.

Edited by Lord Varys
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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not what it shows. There are black and brown Targaryens already with the Black Pearls. Nettles was very prominent from the start because she and Baela were married in that review which was published before TPatQ came out. But as a person she is in no way different from Ulf and Hugh (Addam and Alyn are different in the sense that they are adopted into House Velaryon). Okay, Ulf does seem to have Valyrian hair, so he is different there. But we don't know how Hugh looked like, nor do we know why either of those men could mount a dragon.

If George wanted to send a clear message that dragons are for everyone we would have gotten such a case. And we would have seen much more paranoia on the side of the Targaryens that other people find out that dragonriding is actually no special ability.

For me this became a popular theory the moment I read the full account of the Dance in the FaB manuscript. It is just the way it is told, the role Mysaria plays in the scheme (which, in the book, could be her revenge for Daemon killing their unborn child when he shipped her back to Lys - something she might have wanted to do after she found out the guy was now playing the loving father to the child of another whore), and the general description of the situation at Maidenpool.

Not sure why anyone on the 'net would have issues with Nettles-Daemon as a couple when the asshole already cheats on Rhaenyra with Mysaria.

That is so to a point - but I think people are fooling themselves if they assume that Jaime and Brienne could ever be a loving couple. Jaime might care for her to a point, perhaps even more than he cares for Cersei at the moment, but they have no future. And any sex between them would be awkward as hell, not just because of Brienne's inexperience and general awkwardness, but also because Jaime Lannister wouldn't really be attracted to her body.

Ditto even more so with Sansa and Sandor.

It is actually very weird in both scenarios, but we can assume he would send his daughter away to keep her safe ... while for a lover he would likely fight. If he had a romantic/sexual thing with Nettles then it would stand to reason she had replaced both Rhaenyra and Mysaria in his heart, so he would actually not care that those women were turning on him there. But if Nettles was his daughter then their actions are a kind of ultimate betrayal, something that could affect him on a deeper level causing him to decide that for him there is no longer any joy in his life if the women he loves plan to murder his daughter.

The notion that the Aemond confrontation has any political meaning, is done to help Rhaenyra or young Aegon or his daughter is just utter nonsense. The guy just threw away his life in a grand and pointless gesture. It is like Tywin getting himself killed in a duel with Stannis.

The daughter theory could also explain why Nettles joined Daemon on his mission and/or why he took her with him. They first meet after Rhaenyra takes KL and it would stand to reason that Nettles would approach Daemon about her mother/parentage sometime after she made his acquaintance. Considering Nettles' later disappearance one could also easily imagine she only ever tried to mount a dragon to prove to her father who she was. She never does anything with Sheepstealer after she parted from Daemon ... something a person with other ambitions might very well have done. After the Dance there were effectively no dragonriders left, so Nettles could have become a real power in her own right. Hell, she could have even married Prince Viserys after Larra left him and eventually died.

The Black Pearls came later, after the dragons died.

This is the first I’m hearing about Nettles and Baela originally being married. Where was that from? Do you have a link?

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