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Jon was born illegitimate and he remains a bastard.


Damsel in Distress

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While it is possible for Rhaegar to have fathered Jon,  it is very unlikely that he is legitimate.  Consider the other possible parents for Jon and he is still lacking legitimacy. 

Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Arthur Dayne + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible for Brandon to have married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something idiotic but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard.  Arthur Dayne was a member of the Kingsguard.  He could not marry without first giving up the job.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to give a Kingsguard permission to marry. 

Robb Stark can't legally make Jon legitimate.  Robb failed to create an independent North.  The North can only be independent from Westeros if the Starks had been successful in their rebellion.  They failed.  The Starks became landless and without a home after the Ironborn took Winterfell.  Robb was lord of nothing.  They formally lost their castle and land when Roose Bolton was made Warden of the North. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

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I know you're only posting this to score points in an endless series of attack on Starks, but you are actually correct that Jon is a bastard no matter his parentage. Even if it turns out that he is "legitimate" (which could not happen logically in the books and thus will not happen, as no septon would annul a consummated marriage without reason and polygamy is illegal), it would not matter, because he grew up thinking he was a bastard and identifies as one.  

The thing is, the fact that Jon is a bastard who, though materially privileged and wanting for nothing, was othered and to an extent emotionally abused, is what makes his heroism that much more profound. He is a subversion of a villain origin story with all the tropes involved, and the fact that he demonstrates so much empathy and selflessness is what we are supposed to love about him and root for. His actual parentage does not matter here, especially since his identity as Ned's son is important.

(Just like the fact that Dany is female and grew up impoverished in exile, and we first see her as an abuse victim and broodmare; and she is also a subversion of a villain origin story who demonstrates great empathy and selflessness. [Almost like these two characters constantly parallel!] Just like how most if not all of the PoV characters are marginalized in at least one way, despite the fact that they were almost all highborn.)

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26 minutes ago, Damsel in Distress said:

While it is possible for Rhaegar to have fathered Jon,  it is very unlikely that he is legitimate.  Consider the other possible parents for Jon and he is still lacking legitimacy. 

Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Arthur Dayne + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible for Brandon to have married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something idiotic but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard.  Arthur Dayne was a member of the Kingsguard.  He could not marry without first giving up the job.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to give a Kingsguard permission to marry. 

Robb Stark can't legally make Jon legitimate.  Robb failed to create an independent North.  The North can only be independent from Westeros if the Starks had been successful in their rebellion.  They failed.  The Starks became landless and without a home after the Ironborn took Winterfell.  Robb was lord of nothing.  They formally lost their castle and land when Roose Bolton was made Warden of the North. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

It’s probable that Jon is a royal bastard. But it is absolutely possible Rhaegar married Lyanna as well, making his legitimacy debatable. Once Dany or FAegon takes the throne, there is precedent. 
 

As long as the North acts independent Robb’s Will has legitimacy. Power resides where people believe it to, and currently 90% of the northern lords are definitely loyal to the Starks while the other 9% only  hate the Boltons. Robb legitimizing Jon has merit.

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I mean, yeah, I agree that Jon is a bastard no matter who his parents are (Not Ned I presume!), so what?!... 

no matter whether he'll be the Last Hero of the series or the Night's King or both (like I suspect), it does not matter whether his parents had sex in or out of wedlock! 

I've heard some fans say Jon should be revealed to be a legitimate son because he has so much trouble with his bastardy. no matter the parentage, Jon is Ned's son and any secret that's revealed will only matter for the character in light of his relationship with Ned. Jon has issues with his bastardy due to his relationship with Ned. now if it's revealed that Ned is actually his uncle who hasn't talked to him about his mother/father for perfectly good reasons and that he has sacrificed his honor and risked his marriage just to keep Jon safe, then Jon's issues with his "father" will eventually be pretty much resolved.

 

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I don't care if Jon's a bastard. But I think for the sake of internal conflict in the story he will end up being legitimate, because it could lead to more tension with Daenerys having to consider whether she really wants the throne just because she feels it's her right, especially since Aegon seems to be fake.

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Just now, Craving Peaches said:

I don't care if Jon's a bastard. But I think for the sake of internal conflict in the story he will end up being legitimate, because it could lead to more tension with Daenerys having to consider whether she really wants the throne just because she feels it's her right, especially since Aegon seems to be fake.

I don't think Dany truly wants the Iron Throne at all. Her internal thoughts make it seem like something she feels like she has to work towards: she correctly links it to having the agency she would need to truly belong, but also incorrectly conflates with her desire to belong. It appears that she considers it her duty to Viserys more than anything else.

What she fundamentally wants is the big house with the red door: the childhood she never had. Unfortunately, that is impossible. However, that does not mean that she cannot seek a proper home for the first time in her life.

And home? That's what Jon also wants, ultimately: not recognition or power in itself, nor even a place where his bastardry doesn't taint him, but a place to belong. The two of them can find that with each other and, ideally and thematically, with the Starks.

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Dany was born and remains a traitor. She was born to a rebel on Dragonstone. She was only a member of the royal family so long as Aerys was king and he died before she was born. Subsequently, she remained a traitor to the Iron Throne. She is also a fugitive from Dothraki justice, having killed her husband with sorcery and "euthanasia" and then gone on the run rather than to Vaes Dothrak.

My verdict: Daenerys is a traitor and a criminal with no claim to the Iron Throne.

This is fun! Let's do Thoros next.

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7 minutes ago, Adelstein said:

Dany was born and remains a traitor. She was born to a rebel on Dragonstone. She was only a member of the royal family so long as Aerys was king and he died before she was born. Subsequently, she remained a traitor to the Iron Throne. She is also a fugitive from Dothraki justice, having killed her husband with sorcery and "euthanasia" and then gone on the run rather than to Vaes Dothrak.

My verdict: Daenerys is a traitor and a criminal with no claim to the Iron Throne.

This is fun! Let's do Thoros next.

She’s also dealt a serious blow to the Dothraki government by leaving her seat at the Dosh Khaleen council empty, it can’t function with a member not present.

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5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

While it is possible for Rhaegar to have fathered Jon,  it is very unlikely that he is legitimate.  Consider the other possible parents for Jon and he is still lacking legitimacy. 

Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon

Do you fall for every red herring, or only the ones that are convenient and serve your 'theories'? 

5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Ned and Ashara were nowhere near each other during the Rebellion, and Jon was conceived some few months into it.

5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon

Disclaimer: I would LOOOOOOOVE for Mance to be Jon's father. That said, there's sadly zero support for this idea.

5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

This is just more ridiculous nonsense from you and your mates who seem to be desperate to force some sibling on sibling shagging into the Stark family tree b/c you know how fucking gross it is and you'd love nothing more than to have the Starks being as gross as the Targs irt sibling shagging. It's preposterous, it's wishful 'thinking', and again, it has zero textual support.

5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Is Ashara an elephant to have a pregnancy of 18-22 months? :rofl:

5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon

Ding ding ding. 

5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Another red herring. Yawn.

5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Arthur Dayne + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Care to share *any* support from the text to back this up?

No? Didn't think so. 

5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Robb Stark can't legally make Jon legitimate.  Robb failed to create an independent North.  The North can only be independent from Westeros if the Starks had been successful in their rebellion.  They failed.  The Starks became landless and without a home after the Ironborn took Winterfell.  Robb was lord of nothing.  They formally lost their castle and land when Roose Bolton was made Warden of the North. 

That's not how it works though, something you'd know if you'd read the novels and understood anything you read.

5 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

No one outside your little posse cares about your verdict b/c the stuff you and your mates put forth is always biased, coloured by the hatred for a character/house, and has no textual support whatsoever.

Also, I don't give a flying fuck if Jon is a bastard... I don't think it's a bad thing, nor do I think it takes anything away from the character. 

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I think it’s more probable that Jon is the “legitimate” son of R+L and Bran will see their wedding through the Heart Tree on the Isle of Faces. However this legitimacy is what will cause the issues of his claim to the throne.

If this is true, we’ve got three claimants, who all believe their claim is the strongest. And at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter who has the strongest claim, it matters who wins.

Jon’s claim will be argued that he’s born of a second, unnatural marriage.

Dany’s claim will be argued that she’s a woman.

(F)Aegon’s will be argued to whether he is really Rhaegar’s son or not.

 

And this is the whole point of the series, POVs from each angle who believe they have it true and their way is the right way.

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Jon is a bastard according to the rules and customs of Westeros as given in the novels. The status of bastardry didn’t prevent him from becoming commander of the watch. Brynden Rivers is another bastard who attained a high ranking at the same organization. Their story arcs may run parallel. BR is now living as a parasite on a tree. Jon will live as a parasite in a direwolf. Jon, inside Ghost, will serve as a guard to protect Bran.  

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