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Jon was born illegitimate and he remains a bastard.


Damsel in Distress
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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Disclaimer: I would LOOOOOOOVE for Mance to be Jon's father. That said, there's sadly zero support for this idea.

me too! ^_^ it's such a shame that most likely even the ages do not fit! 

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Care to share *any* support from the text to back this up?

No? Didn't think so. 

:blush::blush: not much... well not any that shows connections between L and A , but another theory that I personally just like so much! BECAUSE imagine Jon leads the battle for the Dawn with Dawn in hand.... cool, ha?! 

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Jon is Jesus/Anakin. There was no father. Jon was conceived by the powers that be in response to the reawakening of magic. It is Jon's destiny to save the world.

yep! this is known....

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8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also, I don't give a flying fuck if Jon is a bastard... I don't think it's a bad thing, nor do I think it takes anything away from the character.

How wrong! Don't you know that bastards are born black of heart? And born to betrayal?

I don't understand how you've read asoiaf but can't see that the lives, and intercourse, of their maybe parents is the only defining characteristic of said character!

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2 hours ago, LongRider said:

If you had started off your thread title with  ***BREAKING!!!***  it would have been much more interesting.

Well, to some members of our community, it would indeed be breaking news that Jon whose mother was a Stark, a family they so hated and raised as a Stark himself was the son of Rhaegar, a member of a family of incestual abominations they so love to worship.

I believe it would cause them to hate even more because Jon managed to somewhat untangle the family tree of the Targaryen's which is more a circular vine than a tree and making it one bit closer to a line.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

I believe it would cause them to hate even more because Jon

Some people will not be able to handle The Reveal™ that Jonno is the legitimate King of the Seven Kingdoms, because it would mean precious Daenerys was...a Usurper! I don't think we will see them anymore because they will have either stopped reading or died of an aneurism.

Spoiler

I stress the COMEDIC nature of my post. This is not meant to be taken seriously.

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You're writing the rules while you judge the guy against them but it's irrelevant anyway. If Jon's birthright or lack thereof becomes an issue it won't be determined by a court of law, it will be determined at sword point and all of the facts whatever they are will be secondary and whatever rationalizations are needed will be given. All of the chatter about legitimacy and rules of succession were summed up quite succinctly by the philosopher Cersei Lannister when she told Ned 'you win or you die'

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There are only 3 possible options for Jon’s parentage, and only 2 have the sort of narrative gravity you’d expect from GRRM.

1. Rhaegar + Lyanna. No question in my mind that it’s canon. Only waiting on confirmation 

2. Ned + Ashara. I like Ned and Ashara as a couple, and them being Jon’s parents would actually be a twist considering how widely know and accepted Rhaegar + Lyanna is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3. Ned + Wylla. While possible, it would be such an anticlimactic reveal. I would be disappointed if this is canon.

 

Anything other than these 3 makes absolutely no sense, and and has 0 evidence.

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16 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

While it is possible for Rhaegar to have fathered Jon,  it is very unlikely that he is legitimate.  Consider the other possible parents for Jon and he is still lacking legitimacy. 

Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Arthur Dayne + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible for Brandon to have married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something idiotic but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard.  Arthur Dayne was a member of the Kingsguard.  He could not marry without first giving up the job.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to give a Kingsguard permission to marry. 

Robb Stark can't legally make Jon legitimate.  Robb failed to create an independent North.  The North can only be independent from Westeros if the Starks had been successful in their rebellion.  They failed.  The Starks became landless and without a home after the Ironborn took Winterfell.  Robb was lord of nothing.  They formally lost their castle and land when Roose Bolton was made Warden of the North. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

Jon is a bastard.  Whose bastard is the often asked question.  I believe Mance Rayder and Lyanna Stark are his parents.  

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Just now, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

2. Ned + Ashara. I like Ned and Ashara as a couple, and them being Jon’s parents would actually be a twist considering how widely know and accepted Rhaegar + Lyanna is.


 

I don’t think this works at all for reasons already stated. I also don’t think Ned and Ashara were ever a thing. 

Just now, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

3. Ned + Wylla. While possible, it would be such an anticlimactic reveal. I would be disappointed if this is canon.

 

Wylla is just a red herring, and in truth she’s only possible b/c she’s not impossible, and that’s not a good foundation for a theory imo. 

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3 minutes ago, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes said:

Jon is a bastard.  Whose bastard is the often asked question.  I believe Mance Rayder and Lyanna Stark are his parents.  

You should try playing w/ the other kids in the sandbox, it’s fun! 

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15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

I don’t think this works at all for reasons already stated. I also don’t think Ned and Ashara were ever a thing. 

 

Well, it's a theory in-universe that Catelyn believed and Ned had to quash rumors of. Would be interesting to see how it developed; most of the theories surrounding Jon Snow originate from Dorne, where Ned found the dying Lyanna. Ashara and Wylla hail from Starfall as lady and servant, Cersei accuses Ned of raping a peasant girl. The odd theory out is the Fisherman's Daughter, which originated in the area between the Vale and the North.

Edited by Angel Eyes
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6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, it's a theory in-universe that Catelyn believed and Ned had to quash rumors of. Would be interesting to see how it developed; most of the theories surrounding Jon Snow originate from Dorne, where Ned found the dying Lyanna. Ashara and Wylla hail from Starfall as lady and servant, Cersei accuses Ned of raping a peasant girl. The odd theory out is the Fisherman's Daughter, which originated in the area between the Vale and the North.

Yes, in-universe all 3 are ‘valid’ theories. Cat thinks Jon’s mum is Ashara, Ned Dayne thinks it’s Wylla, and Godric Borrell thinks it’s the fisherman’s daughter. But none of them know everything the reader knows, which is enough to see all 3 candidates for what they are: red herrings. IMO.

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35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think this works at all for reasons already stated. I also don’t think Ned and Ashara were ever a thing. 

39 minutes ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

Ashara's supposed stillborn daughter is most likely Allyria. Whether she is Ned's or Brandon's, we can't know. My vote is for Ned because no mention of Ashara and Brandon is ever made whereas not just Ned's soldiers mention her with him but Cersei as well.

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18 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I know you're only posting this to score points in an endless series of attack on Starks, but you are actually correct that Jon is a bastard no matter his parentage. Even if it turns out that he is "legitimate" (which could not happen logically in the books and thus will not happen, as no septon would annul a consummated marriage without reason and polygamy is illegal), it would not matter, because he grew up thinking he was a bastard and identifies as one.  

The thing is, the fact that Jon is a bastard who, though materially privileged and wanting for nothing, was othered and to an extent emotionally abused, is what makes his heroism that much more profound. He is a subversion of a villain origin story with all the tropes involved, and the fact that he demonstrates so much empathy and selflessness is what we are supposed to love about him and root for. His actual parentage does not matter here, especially since his identity as Ned's son is important.

(Just like the fact that Dany is female and grew up impoverished in exile, and we first see her as an abuse victim and broodmare; and she is also a subversion of a villain origin story who demonstrates great empathy and selflessness. [Almost like these two characters constantly parallel!] Just like how most if not all of the PoV characters are marginalized in at least one way, despite the fact that they were almost all highborn.)

Again, where is that Hell YES emoji? 

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