Jon was born illegitimate and he remains a bastard.

[Curled Finger]

How come no one ever thinks Howland Reed is Jon's father?  This is the ONE GUY we KNOW Lyanna was actually really friendly to.  

[three-eyed monkey]

Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I would say they did marry. The marriage was not legitimate. Jon was born a bastard, but in the end that won't matter.

I think it makes sense that they did wed in or around the Riverlands/God's eye area. Rhaegar relates the three heads of the dragon to the prince that was promised. A prince or princess should be legitimate, all three of them if that's what he believed. And if you're trying to produce someone the realm can trust and unite behind in the fight against the darkness, then slapping the bastard tag on them is not a good start.

Of course, any child with Lyanna would not be legitimized without the permission of the king, which clearly would not be forthcoming as long as that was Aerys. So I think Rhaegar had to put the cart before the horse and wed Lyanna in sight of the gods and men and by the grace of the gods old and new, etc., while planning to have the marriage or child legitimized later. We know he meant to call a council and make changes... but it does no good to speak of roads not taken.

Even if the marriage was illegitimate that doesn't make it redundant to the story. The question of Jon's mother and his status as a bastard are central to his inner-conflict, which we should expect him to resolve before he can properly play his part in resolving his external conflict, defending the realm. A marriage in front of a weirwood would allow readers see it through Bran, who would then be the person to tell Jon. We've already seen Bran in tree form talk to Jon in Ghost, and we know Jon is going to be in his wolf for a while in Winds. The heart tree in Winterfell would be a poignant location for such a conversation, but I guess any weirwood could suffice. I think it would be important to Jon to know his parents made their vows before a heart tree, even if the marriage was never legally recognized.

I think it would also be important for Rhaegar to have covered his bases with the Faith of the Seven. Any future plans of legitimization would probably require the approval of the High Septon. We do have traveling septons who travel from village to village conducting holy services and performing marriages. Meribald told Brienne he's being doing that for twenty years, which fits the right general area at the right time. The High Sparrow has a similar backstory (if you believe him). So we could potentially have a living witness, maybe even the current High Septon himself. As such Bran would see, Rhaegar, Lyanna, the three kingsguard knights, and a septon, which makes six. I feel we should have seven. The septons dog maybe, or potentially Bran who would bear witness across time through the tree.

However, Jon's legitimacy or basis for a potential claim are not going to matter because he's not going to want the Iron Throne, or any throne or crown for that matter. If Jon wants to resolve his external conflict he will have to put saving the kingdom ahead of winning the throne. That's his goal. Davos tells us a king defends his people or else he is no true king.  It's not his name, bloodline, legitimacy or crown that makes a king, it's what the king does. Jon will choose to defend the realm over the throne and that's what will make him a true king.

Edited February 24, 2023 by three-eyed monkey

[Angel Eyes]

35 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I would say they did marry. The marriage was not legitimate. Jon was born a bastard, but in the end that won't matter.

I think it makes sense that they did wed in or around the Riverlands/God's eye area. Rhaegar relates the three heads of the dragon to the prince that was promised. A prince or princess should be legitimate, all three of them if that's what he believed. And if you're trying to produce someone the realm can trust and unite behind in the fight against the darkness, then slapping the bastard tag on them is not a good start.

Of course, any child with Lyanna would not be legitimized without the permission of the king, which clearly would not be forthcoming as long as that was Aerys. So I think Rhaegar had to put the cart before the horse and wed Lyanna in sight of the gods and men and by the grace of the gods old and new, etc., while planning to have the marriage or child legitimized later. We know he meant to call a council and make changes... but it does no good to speak of roads not taken.

Even if the marriage was illegitimate that doesn't make it redundant to the story. The question of Jon's mother and his status as a bastard are central to his inner-conflict, which we should expect him to resolve before he can properly play his part in resolving his external conflict, defending the realm. A marriage in front of a weirwood would allow readers see it through Bran, who would then be the person to tell Jon. We've already seen Bran in tree form talk to Jon in Ghost, and we know Jon is going to be in his wolf for a while in Winds. The heart tree in Winterfell would be a poignant location for such a conversation, but I guess any weirwood could suffice. I think it would be important to Jon to know his parents made their vows before a heart tree, even if the marriage was never legally recognized.

I think it would also be important for Rhaegar to have covered his bases with the Faith of the Seven. Any future plans of legitimization would probably require the approval of the High Septon. We do have traveling septons who travel from village to village conducting holy services and performing marriages. Meribald told Brienne he's being doing that for twenty years, which fits the right general area at the right time. The High Sparrow has a similar backstory (if you believe him). So we could potentially have a living witness, maybe even the current High Septon himself. As such Bran would see, Rhaegar, Lyanna, the three kingsguard knights, and a septon, which makes six. I feel we should have seven. The septons dog maybe, or potentially Bran who would bear witness across time through the tree.

However, Jon's legitimacy or basis for a potential claim are not going to matter because he's not going to want the Iron Throne, or any throne or crown for that matter. If Jon wants to resolve his external conflict he will have to put saving the kingdom ahead of winning the throne. That's his goal. Davos tells us a king defends his people or else he is no true king.  It's not his name, bloodline, legitimacy or crown that makes a king, it's what the king does. Jon will choose to defend the realm over the throne and that's what will make him a true king.

Well if Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia that would piss Aegon off immensely.

[EggBlue]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

How come no one ever thinks Howland Reed is Jon's father?  This is the ONE GUY we KNOW Lyanna was actually really friendly to.  

I know! right?!

honestly, if there wasn't the logical reason that Howland would raise his son on his own, I would have loved this theory so much, because it would be the exact subversion of "the knight getting the girl after defending her honor" trope!  cute! 

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

How come no one ever thinks Howland Reed is Jon's father?  This is the ONE GUY we KNOW Lyanna was actually really friendly to.  

Jyanna Reed is Lyanna!

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

Jyanna Reed is Lyanna!

obviously ... Jon is Craster's son, so Lyanna after feeling all the guilt knowing her family and her savior(aka. Rhaegar Targaryen) had died wished to die on her bed of blood... only... she didn't! she was reunited with her secret crush, Howland Reed, took a new name and extracted two promises from Ned: a/leave her alone b/take away Craster's demon child away...... 

it all makes so much sense!! 

[Nevets]

Jon is a bastard, and I'm surprised anybody disputes it.  There is no evidence of any marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, so even if they tried, it won't be valid.  And the status of polygamy can be charitably described as highly questionable in any case.

If this were real life I would consider Arthur Dayne as a possible father simply because he had access during the time in question.  It's fiction, so I don't.  Though if for some reason, GRRM decides to go in a different direction, it's the only scenario that works.

[three-eyed monkey]

8 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well if Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia that would piss Aegon off immensely.

Aegon would probably poop his swaddling clothes in protest. A greater concern would be Dorne. I doubt an annulment would be well received there. Then again if Rhaegar set Lyanna aside, in the event that she survived childbirth, then he would risk further offending the North. So he was in a bit of a pickle either way. He believed he needed three children to save the realm, but the opinion was that his wife would not survive a third. I think the only solution would be for Rhaegar to replace his father as king, which is why he meant to call a council, and convince the High Septon to grant him permission for a polygamous marriage, based on the prophesied circumstances.

There may be no evidence of a wedding but there is set-up for a reveal. Northern weddings in front of a heart tree. Bran seeing past events through the eyes of a heart tree. Wandering septons traipsing the Riverlands and beyond, performing marriages. I think we'll get such a reveal. Married, or at least wedding ceremony, yes. Legit, no, but it won't matter in the end because so-called legitimacy has nothing to do with being a true king.

Edited February 24, 2023 by three-eyed monkey

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

Jyanna Reed is Lyanna!

Jyanna is such a lame ruse of spelling.  

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I know! right?!

honestly, if there wasn't the logical reason that Howland would raise his son on his own, I would have loved this theory so much, because it would be the exact subversion of "the knight getting the girl after defending her honor" trope!  cute! 

All those moving castles and running on trees.  Perhaps Ned wanted a more traditional upbringing for his nephew?  Perhaps Howland was an emotional wreck at the time?  C'mon Egg, don't encourage me on this!  

[Tyrosh Lannister]

10 hours ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

Jyanna Reed is Lyanna!

Some have speculated that Ashara faked her death and is living as Jyanna (Jyanna rhymes with Lyanna) because she feels guilty about Lyannas death. She lives in grey water watch - a perfect hiding spot because the castle moves and is extremely hard to visit 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Tyrosh Lannister

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

1 minute ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Some have speculated that Ashara faked her death and is living as Jyanna (Jyanna rhymes with Lyanna) because she feels guilty about her death. She lives in grey water watch - a perfect hiding spot because the castle moves and is extremely hard to visit 

I like that theory as well

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

Some have speculated that Ashara faked her death and is living as Jyanna (Jyanna rhymes with Lyanna) because she feels guilty about Lyannas death. She lives in grey water watch - a perfect hiding spot because the castle moves and is extremely hard to visit 

I hate that theory.

I mean , at first glance , it seems totally plausible that the crannogman who spent so much time checking out a random lady's dancing partners in a ball has a crush on her . but it honestly ends right there in Harrenhall , whether they made a baby there or not!

first , why the hell would she feel guilty ?! . then , in what kind of world a woman fakes her death to run away and live with her brother's murderer, leaving all of her family and friends behind immediately after the fact at that?!!! and how would the Daynes be so respectful of Ned , the other murderer who also helped Howland take their daughter away to some frozen hell that they name their only child after him?!!!!!!

[Loose Bolt]

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Jon is a bastard, and I'm surprised anybody disputes it.  There is no evidence of any marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna, so even if they tried, it won't be valid.  And the status of polygamy can be charitably described as highly questionable in any case.

Main duties of members of Kingsguard are to protect king, his family and obey all orders given to them by king.

So the fact that 3 KG were still at Tower of Joy when they knew that Aerys II and Rhaegar were dead means that they believed that there was member of royal family or even king inside that tower. After all if Lyanna and Rhaegar were not married those 3 KG would not have any reasons to stay there bc all possible orders given to them by Rhaegar became void when they found out that that he had died.

[Craving Peaches]

10 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Main duties of members of Kingsguard are to protect king, his family and obey all orders given to them by king.

So the fact that 3 KG were still at Tower of Joy when they knew that Aerys II and Rhaegar were dead means that they believed that there was member of royal family or even king inside that tower. After all if Lyanna and Rhaegar were not married those 3 KG would not have any reasons to stay there bc all possible orders given to them by Rhaegar became void when they found out that that he had died.

Yes, I agree and people seem to overlook this all the time, if Jon was just Rhaegar's bastard those Kingsguard members would have been with Rhaegar at the Trident or Aerys.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

Main duties of members of Kingsguard are to protect king, his family and obey all orders given to them by king.

So the fact that 3 KG were still at Tower of Joy when they knew that Aerys II and Rhaegar were dead means that they believed that there was member of royal family or even king inside that tower. After all if Lyanna and Rhaegar were not married those 3 KG would not have any reasons to stay there bc all possible orders given to them by Rhaegar became void when they found out that that he had died.

 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, I agree and people seem to overlook this all the time, if Jon was just Rhaegar's bastard those Kingsguard members would have been with Rhaegar at the Trident or Aerys.

guys , you're forgetting something(s) here : a) at that point Jon wasn't born and thus there was no way to know if the baby is a girl (after Viserys in line of succession) or a boy (before Viserys given we assume that R&L were indeed married) ...  b) whether Jon is a bastard or not , he'd be a member of royal family if Rhaegar recognizes him and I guess nothing shouts "this kid is mine" more than abducting(running away with) a woman and keeping her in a love(sex) tower. ... I have my own issues with the Kingsgaurds' presence (and almost half of the order at that?!) and I have come up with some theories of my own. But because of the reasons stated above, I tend to think it's not about a matter of succession if it's about unborn Jon. the easiest explanation is that they were simply there because of Rhaegar/Aerys's orders pre-death and because there was no way of leaving there just yet to get to Rhaella and Viserys . thanks to Jaimie who still feels ashamed and guilty for failing Rhaegar's family despite his order to protect them , we can know that the Kingsgaurd don't just abandon their mission because of the royal's death(unless they are Jaimie) 

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

the easiest explanation is that they were simply there because of Rhaegar/Aerys's orders pre-death and because there was no way of leaving there just yet to get to Rhaella and Viserys .

I really think that if Jon is a bastard then their loyalty is to Aerys over him, no matter what Rhaegar said. Rhaegar dies, they would be with Aerys not with his paramour.

[EggBlue]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I really think that if Jon is a bastard then their loyalty is to Aerys over him, no matter what Rhaegar said. Rhaegar dies, they would be with Aerys not with his paramour.

we cannot be sure of the Kingsgaurds' purpose even before Rhaegar's death. Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend and Oswell was most likely Rhaegar's man as well . but the White Bull was loyal to the king to the bitter end, remember? and Aerys had named Viserys his heir even when both of Rhaegar's unquestionably legitimate children lived. so , it can't be about that. and besides, Aerys dies about 2 weeks after Rhaegar if I remember correctly. the Kingsgaurd are located in a secret remote spot. for all we know they had received all the news at the same time , not long before Ned's arruval.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 2/23/2023 at 2:11 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

My vote is for Ned because no mention of Ashara and Brandon is ever made whereas not just Ned's soldiers mention her with him but Cersei as well.

These sources of the Ned-Ashara rumors are one of the main reason I consider them dubious. Random soldiers talking about Ned and Ashara at Starfall when they weren’t there and Cersei (who throws out her name in the same breath as making two other wild accusations) are not very credible. Ned also doesn’t react at all when Cersei brings up her name.

Theres no explicit mention of Brandon but I think Barristan’s thoughts in ADWD are setting up that twist.

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I hate that theory.

I mean , at first glance , it seems totally plausible that the crannogman who spent so much time checking out a random lady's dancing partners in a ball has a crush on her . but it honestly ends right there in Harrenhall , whether they made a baby there or not!

first , why the hell would she feel guilty ?! . then , in what kind of world a woman fakes her death to run away and live with her brother's murderer, leaving all of her family and friends behind immediately after the fact at that?!!! and how would the Daynes be so respectful of Ned , the other murderer who also helped Howland take their daughter away to some frozen hell that they name their only child after him?!!!!!!

Haven't you seen The Princess Bride?  It's called Twue Wuv.