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Jon was born illegitimate and he remains a bastard.


Damsel in Distress
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22 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, I agree and people seem to overlook this all the time, if Jon was just Rhaegar's bastard those Kingsguard members would have been with Rhaegar at the Trident or Aerys.

Given that the Targaryens no longer practice polygamy, would this mean Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia as in the show... which would explain why there was only one Kingsguard with Elia and her children, who subsequently "failed" to protect them?

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For the record: just watched PJ's theory on Jon's parentage out of curiosity since so many use it to back up Asharaa as Jon's mum. It's rubbish... it has more holes than a sieve, ignores the timeline and flat out misrepresents things. 

There, I watched it so you don't have to. 

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Sorry I disagree.

Jon is legitimate.

Polygamy is illegal (are we really even sure that this is the case?) but its illegality is determined by the will of Targaryen royalty. Not the High Septon, not the Book of the Seven-Pointed Star, not individual lords but by the Targaryens. The faith's military and judicial arms were dismantled by the Targaryens who proceeded to make polygamy illegal as a compromise.

It can just as easily be made legal again.

If a thirteen-year-old dwarf second son of the Lord of Casterly Rock can find a septon to marry him and if said marriage was annulled (you can't annul an illegal marriage...illegal marriages don't exist), then the almost-thirty-year-old Crown Prince of the Seven Kingdoms can do the same thing too.

Even if Rhaegar couldn't find a septon to officiate the marriage (unlikely), the marriage can be officiated by way of a Valyrian ceremony, by the red priests of R'hllor or even by a worshipper of the old gods.

On 2/23/2023 at 2:17 AM, SeanF said:

What if he is?

It would completely prove that the in-universe prejudice against bastards is unfounded, if a bastard proves himself a hero.

Actually no, it wouldn't

Don't forget that we still have the Blackfyres, the Sand Snakes, the Twincest kids, Mance Rayder, all of the wildlings, and Ramsay Bolton. Even "Alayne Stone" is playing into the stereotype and she's not even a real bastard.

If Jon is a bastard, he'd be the exception rather than the rule in the eyes of Westeros.

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I do not honestly think Jon being a bastard makes him less of a character. It is just that some fans really want him to have it all.

@Craving Peaches

 

Quote

Yes, I agree and people seem to overlook this all the time, if Jon was just Rhaegar's bastard those Kingsguard members would have been with Rhaegar at the Trident or Aerys.

Did Martin not say that they couldn't simply ignore Rhaegar's orders?

Weren't two of those Kingsguards conspiring with Rhaegar anyway?

 

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

are we really even sure that this is the case

Yeah. Unless you have big scary dragons, then it's maybe. Or unless you're Ironborn but that's not really polygamy anyway.

That's why Dany will practice polygamy, she truly is Aegon.

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

It can just as easily be made legal again.

By a King, Hand or Regent.

A Crown Prince does not have that power.

The rest is the same spin over and over. If polygamy is forbidden by law, you using different religions doesn't just void the law.

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Actually no, it wouldn't

Seems rather handpicked tho.

 

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15 minutes ago, frenin said:

Did Martin not say that they couldn't simply ignore Rhaegar's orders?

Weren't two of those Kingsguards conspiring with Rhaegar anyway?

I don't know what the author said, obviously while Rhaeagr's alive they cannot just ignore his orders but when he dies they are not as important as defending the remaining Targaryens and the royal family. Rhaegar is dead then they would not be guarding his bastard before protecting King Aerys and the still-living Targaryens. Their oaths as KG require them to do this. Now they could have broken them but supposedly these guys weren't the type to break oaths.

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2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know what the author said, obviously while Rhaeagr's alive they cannot just ignore his orders but when he dies they are not as important as defending the remaining Targaryens and the royal family. Rhaegar is dead then they would not be guarding his bastard before protecting King Aerys and the still-living Targaryens. Their oaths as KG require them to do this. Now they could have broken them but supposedly these guys weren't the type to break oaths.

I'm with Craving Peaches, @frenin

But forget about Aerys for a moment...

As knights of the Kingsguard, they should have immediately sought out Rhaella and Viserys.

But they didn't. Not only did they not leave, but they all insisted that they were holding true to their vows...knowing full well that Rhaella, Viserys and Daenerys were on Dragonstone.

It's pretty clear evidence that Jon (and Lyanna) were members of the royal family.

 

 

Edited by BlackLightning
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10 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

LOL yes, it is

There are two different wives that you can have in Ironborn culture and the children from both types of wives are legitimate and trueborn.

Nope. Salt wives is just how they call the victims they’ve kidnapped and keep as thralls. And the children they may have w/ these salt wives may inherit in the absence of trueborn children. 

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14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nope. Salt wives is just how they call the victims they’ve kidnapped and keep as thralls. And the children they may have w/ these salt wives may inherit in the absence of trueborn children. 

I doubt they marry the Salt Wives as they would with the Rock Wife. They are concubines basically. I don't think they have the status of being legally married.

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1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I doubt they marry the Salt Wives as they would with the Rock Wife. They are concubines basically. I don't think they have the status of being legally married.

And as Theon did, salt wives can be dumped at any time (yes he was an asshole to the girl.)

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1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I doubt they marry the Salt Wives as they would with the Rock Wife. They are concubines basically. I don't think they have the status of being legally married.

Yeah, they don’t. Concubines is closer to the mark, I agree. Though their place in society is lesser than, say, a Dornish concubine. They go into it a bit more outside the main novels, not sure if it’s in the World Book or Fire & Blood? 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Though their place in society is lesser than, say, a Dornish concubine.

Not to mention the Dornish concubines/paramours from what we have seen appear to be based on mutual desire and the relationship entered into willingly, while the salt 'wives' are whichever poor woman a raider takes a fancy to, and have no say in the process.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nope. Salt wives is just how they call the victims they’ve kidnapped and keep as thralls. And the children they may have w/ these salt wives may inherit in the absence of trueborn children. 

So, what you're saying is that the "salt wife, rock wife" stuff isn't polygamy because polygamy is illegal on the Iron Islands.

But sexual slavery is legal. And the Iron Throne just...tolerates such an arrangement

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9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

They go into it a bit more outside the main novels, not sure if it’s in the World Book or Fire & Blood? 

It was in The World of Ice and Fire. :)

Fire and Blood does have another bit about how a Greyjoy lord died without a trueborn ("rock wife's") heir, but his son by a salt wife succeeded to Pyke. However, it did result in a succession war; so while salt sons can inherit, many will still consider them bastards and try to make claims against them.

 

6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But sexual slavery is legal. And the Iron Throne just...tolerates such an arrangement

It is not at all legal, but unfortunately, it is tolerated, and it is probably for pragmatic reasons.

To what extent can the Iron Throne declare war until it has to give up on bringing the remote and famously vicious Iron Islands fully into line? The ironborn follow all the other Westerosi laws and most of the Westerosi norms by the time canon begins, so when does war become worth it?

EDIT: I just remembered a Theon chapter about this. It seems not to have been a thing for some time now, so maybe the Iron Throne did put an end to it.

"And warm my bed by night?" He reached for the laces of her bodice and began to undo them, his fingers deft and practiced. "Once I might have carried you home as a prize, and kept you to wife whether you willed it or no. The ironmen of old did such things. A man had his rock wife, his true bride, ironborn like himself, but he had his salt wives too, women captured on raids."

Theon I, A Clash of Kings

Edited by Many-Faced Votary
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2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

So, what you're saying is that the "salt wife, rock wife" stuff isn't polygamy because polygamy is illegal on the Iron Islands.

I’m saying salt wives are not married to the men who abduct them and who keep them as thralls. So much so that children of salt wives can only inherit if the man in question has no children with his wife, despite what you claimed up thread. 

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But sexual slavery is legal. And the Iron Throne just...tolerates such an arrangement

Yes, precisely. 

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13 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

So, what you're saying is that the "salt wife, rock wife" stuff isn't polygamy because polygamy is illegal on the Iron Islands.

I understand what you mean but by definition polygamy is where you can have multiple wives who are legally your wife because you are married. So unless this marriage element is present, which it doesn't appear to be, then the arrangement the Ironborn have is wife + concubines not polygamy, irrespective of their terminology.

16 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But sexual slavery is legal. And the Iron Throne just...tolerates such an arrangement

Yes, they tolerate a lot of bad practices from the local nobility. As long as it doesn't threaten their power...

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And this bothers Targaryen enthusiasts because..? Do they think Jon is not a fit consort for Dany if he is a bastard? Sorry to break it to you but he's not a fit consort regardless of his bastardry because Jon is not a brother but her nephew, and not a nephew born of sibling incest either, but of a regular couple with no blood ties no less! He isn't related to her enough for a Targaryen marriage to happen.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I understand what you mean but by definition polygamy is where you can have multiple wives who are legally your wife because you are married. So unless this marriage element is present, which it doesn't appear to be, then the arrangement the Ironborn have is wife + concubines not polygamy, irrespective of their terminology.

Iirc, they do have a “ceremony” of sorts. My problem is that the women they take for salt wives don’t enter into this willingly. They’re victims who were abducted during raids, their consent is irrelevant, and the men can do whatever they want w/ them. They don’t have the same rights the rock wives have, same for their children. So no, this is not a polygamous marriage, and yes, it is sexual slavery. 

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, they tolerate a lot of bad practices from the local nobility. As long as it doesn't threaten their power...

Exactly. 

Edited by kissdbyfire
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