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Jon was born illegitimate and he remains a bastard.


Damsel in Distress
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On the 3 KG being at the ToJ... the short and sweet answer is, we don't know why they were there, and we don't know why they stayed. There are too many pieces of the puzzle missing. I don't think their presence there necessarily means Rhaegar and Lyanna got married somehow, and it also doesn't mean they didn't; again, there are far too many details missing. 

I also don't think the mystery of their presence there can be solved using their vows as KG. We know it's possible that Rhaegar was planning on making "some changes" (whatever those might be), we know Dayne and Whent were close to Rhaegar, especially Dayne. Is it possible they knew their KG vows would require them to go back to KL to protect whoever was left of the royal family but ignored it b/c of either some arrangement they had w/ Rhaegar or b/c of some belief of theirs that spoke to them in a way that made them ignore their vows? Yes. And before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I'm only saying it is possible, even if it may be unlikely. Hightower is the one whose motives may be the hardest to decipher, since he was the LC and only joined the other two after Aerys sent him looking for Rhaegar. But again, is it possible that something made him decide to stay there? And again, the answer is yes, it is possible. He was present when Aerys murdered Rickard and Brandon... was that the straw that broke the camel's back? Possibly not, since immediately after the murders he tells Jaime that they're not supposed to judge the king. 

Could something else have happened that changed his mind? Something Rhaegar told him? Yes, it's possible, even if unlikely. 

Like many other little mysteries, we won't be able to piece this together until we have more information. :dunno:

 

Edited by kissdbyfire
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4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's unfathomable that Sansa or Marge or even Arianne would lead troops into battle, I think Asha being the exception is definitely a good piece of evidence 

I could see Arya doing it though. Or one of the Mormonts. And there are obvious precedents of Targ women leading troops too, including Dany. Arianne does command troops - not very many and not very effectively, but she gets armed men to follow her command into a battle situation. And we can envisage the Sand Snakes commanding troops, surely?

Part of the reason Asha leads troops is because Balon has no sons left so treated her like one. But all the other great houses in Westeros have, or at least had, sons available to take on that burden so they didn't raise their daughters with expectations of commanding armies, and accordingly their vassals have no reason to take their daughters seriously as war-leaders even if they wanted to step up, because they have no training or expertise in that area. It's not necessarily indicative of anything beyond that, I don't think.

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11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well until we receive conformation either way it can be assumed. It is quite obvious that the duty of the KG to the royal family members would come before their duty to Rhaegar's bastard, even if it was his 'last wish' or whatever, because of the way the institution works.

I mean it's not tho. Given that we have word of god that they had to stay put.

 

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

They do have ravens

To go to where? And to inform of what? By the time ravens arrived. King's Landing would have long fallen.

 

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

And I really doubt Aerys would allow Rhaegar to just requisition KG that could have been protecting royal family members during a war just to guard his paramour and bastard. Aerys is the King and they have to obey. Rhaegar should have had a valid reason.

What happened tho.

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4 minutes ago, frenin said:

I mean it's not tho. Given that we have word of god that they had to stay put.

Well then why do you think they had to stay put? Are you saying that Rhaegar's orders to defend his bastard son and paramour are more important than any other orders including orders from the King, their vows to defend the surviving royal family etc? If they have to stay put, to my mind it makes far more sense that they have to stay put because they have to defend Jon the new heir, rather than because they have to respect their dead friends wishes, giving the nature of the Kingsguard as an institution.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

What happened tho

We don't know what happened though. All we can do is speculate about why they were there until we receive confirmation either way. So it can be whatever you want. I just think Jon being legitimate is the likeliest reason for why they were there.

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

To go to where? And to inform of what? By the time ravens arrived. King's Landing would have long fallen.

If Ravens are sent as soon as the battle concluded or even as soon as Rhaegar was killed I don't see why they wouldn't know. And even if they found out too late to defend King's Landing, Rhaella and Viserys are on Dragonstone.

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

We don't know what happened though. All we can do is speculate about why they were there until we receive confirmation either way. So it can be whatever you want. I just think Jon being legitimate is the likeliest reason for why they were there.

Martin literally says they were there on Rhaegar's orders and that they could not disobey him.

If you want to believe that Jon is legitimate, that is fine and all  but using the Kingsguard presence there as a proof when we know they had to stay put is just funny.

 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

If Ravens are sent as soon as the battle concluded or even as soon as Rhaegar was killed I don't see why they wouldn't know. And even if they found out too late to defend King's Landing, Rhaella and Viserys are on Dragonstone.

King's Landing would only receive the news days after the battle happened.  They would then send have to send it... if they had not fallen by then.

And any raven the rebels send inmediately after the battle would not reach the tower... because they do not the location.

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Just now, frenin said:

Martin literally says they were there on Rhaegar's orders and that they could not disobey him.

Does he literally say that or does he say something disingenuous like, “oh they can’t disobey Rhaegar”, like he’s raising that as a possibility but not specifically saying Rhaegar told them to stay? I seem to recall it being the latter, but I don’t remember the exact quote. 
Similar to when he was asked about Ashara and said she wasn’t nailed to the floor in Starfall, where what he’s really saying is, maybe she was there, maybe she wasn’t. 

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10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Name a progressive religion. Like, the nuns for the faith have no tongues.

The nuns for the Faith of the Seven are septas. It's still a sexist setup for a sexist religion, especially with septons' and septas' different responsibilities; but septas can even be part of the Most Devout. The only blatant disparity is that only a septon can be elected as High Septon.

You're talking about the silent sisters, who are a specific organization of women who serve the Faith by serving the Stranger. The educated know that they merely take a vow of silence; only commoners and less educated nobility think that their tongues are cut out.

Now, is the existence of the silent sisters as they are, and the organization's use as a threat to women who "misbehave," inherently misogynistic? Of course. But that's quite different from what you implied.

 

In any case, this suggests to me that you seem to be giving the Iron Islands too much leeway for their misogynistic culture, while reading too much into the misogyny of the general Westerosi culture. It's absolutely sexist, but not as sexist, and I respectfully disagree with your arguments.

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3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

The nuns for the Faith of the Seven are septas. It's still a sexist setup for a sexist religion, especially with septons' and septas' different responsibilities; but septas can even be part of the Most Devout. The only blatant disparity is that only a septon can be elected as High Septon.

You're talking about the silent sisters, who are a specific organization of women who serve the Faith by serving the Stranger. The educated know that they merely take a vow of silence; only commoners and less educated nobility think that their tongues are cut out.

Now, is the existence of the silent sisters as they are, and the organization's use as a threat to women who "misbehave," inherently misogynistic? Of course. But that's quite different from what you implied.

Oh, them. 

Lol thanks, I totally forgot Septas were a thing

3 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

In any case, this suggests to me that you seem to be giving the Iron Islands too much leeway for their misogynistic culture, while reading too much into the misogyny of the general Westerosi culture. It's absolutely sexist, but not as sexist, and I respectfully disagree with your arguments.

Iron Islands I think are misogynistic as shit, but just not imo as bad as the greenlands. Which isnt saying much. I think the smallfolk are also more progressive and free, which again isn't saying much. But, fair enough.

(I think the concept would appeal to Dany. She'd get to have the three headed dragon, and (claim) to one day give a trueborn heir and most importantly for her she'd get to wake up next to Darrio every morning)

8 hours ago, Adelstein said:

I could see Arya doing it though. Or one of the Mormonts. And there are obvious precedents of Targ women leading troops too, including Dany. Arianne does command troops - not very many and not very effectively, but she gets armed men to follow her command into a battle situation. And we can envisage the Sand Snakes commanding troops, surely?

Part of the reason Asha leads troops is because Balon has no sons left so treated her like one. But all the other great houses in Westeros have, or at least had, sons available to take on that burden so they didn't raise their daughters with expectations of commanding armies, and accordingly their vassals have no reason to take their daughters seriously as war-leaders even if they wanted to step up, because they have no training or expertise in that area. It's not necessarily indicative of anything beyond that, I don't think.

I could totally see Arya wanting to lead troops into battle but Jon explained to her that she gets the banners and that's about it. Iirc the sandsnake in twow is reminiscent of Arya but her Arianne and co roll their eyes at the warrior girl. Mormonts for sure.

Cat and Lysa were the only ones for a while tho and while Cat went to meetings and learned logistics or whatever she never was instructed in the art of combat.

Idk, I can't see the chivalry of the south sending in a woman. Maybe as a figurehead in do or die situations, but not like the ferocity or spunk that Asha shows 

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5 hours ago, frenin said:

Martin literally says they were there on Rhaegar's orders and that they could not disobey him.

If you want to believe that Jon is legitimate, that is fine and all  but using the Kingsguard presence there as a proof when we know they had to stay put is just funny.

Setting aside the question of Jon’s legitimacy for the moment, Rhaegar’s orders only have power over them to the extent that Aerys permits it and does not give orders to the contrary (unless you think the KG defected, but that seems odd given the dialogue in the ToJ scene). So he either must have been ok with the KG staying there or not cared enough to have someone retrieve them before he died. Why he would have that attitude about their absence is an interesting question IMO

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6 hours ago, frenin said:

Martin literally says they were there on Rhaegar's orders and that they could not disobey him.

If you want to believe that Jon is legitimate, that is fine and all  but using the Kingsguard presence there as a proof when we know they had to stay put is just funny.

Can I see this quote then please?

6 hours ago, frenin said:

King's Landing would only receive the news days after the battle happened.  They would then send have to send it... if they had not fallen by then.

People at the Battle itself can send ravens...

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8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well then why do you think they had to stay put? Are you saying that Rhaegar's orders to defend his bastard son and paramour are more important than any other orders including orders from the King, their vows to defend the surviving royal family etc? If they have to stay put, to my mind it makes far more sense that they have to stay put because they have to defend Jon the new heir, rather than because they have to respect their dead friends wishes, giving the nature of the Kingsguard as an institution.

We don't know what happened though. All we can do is speculate about why they were there until we receive confirmation either way. So it can be whatever you want. I just think Jon being legitimate is the likeliest reason for why they were there.

If Ravens are sent as soon as the battle concluded or even as soon as Rhaegar was killed I don't see why they wouldn't know. And even if they found out too late to defend King's Landing, Rhaella and Viserys are on Dragonstone.

The Tower of Joy is likely not on the raven network, so any messages would take time to arrive.  Probably too late for the Kingsguards to do much.

Dragonstone is a long way from the ToJ, plus it was surrounded by enemy ships.  Going there isn't possible.

I'm willing to accept the possibility that Rhaegar either intended to legitimize Jon or had entered into some sort of marriage.  However, since any such intention or marriage went unrecorded, for practical intents and purposes it doesn't exist.

The KG may have been intending to present Jon as the Targaryen claimant for the Iron Throne, and this could have been Rhaegar's orders, especially in the event of his and his family's deaths.  But that's essentially a moot point now.

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59 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Can I see this quote then please?

Here it is:

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? 

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." 

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." 

Thanks! I still think that Rhaegar wouldn't be able to requisition them from Aerys in the first place though without a good reason. I don't think protecting his pregnant paramour would cut it in terms of being a legitimate reason for needing three kingsguards, almost half of them, while there was a war on. I think there must have been more to it than that.

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4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Thanks! I still think that Rhaegar wouldn't be able to requisition them from Aerys in the first place though without a good reason. I don't think protecting his pregnant paramour would cut it in terms of being a legitimate reason for needing three kingsguards, almost half of them, while there was a war on. I think there must have been more to it than that.

Unless they decided that following Rhaegar’s orders (for whatever reason) was what they were meant to do, as I said up thread. Mind you,  I’m not saying this is what happened; I’m not even saying that’s likely to have happened. All I’m saying is that it is *possible*, and until we have more information we can speculate until we’re blue in the face and still we wouldn’t know for sure. There are just way too many pieces of this puzzle missing. Imo. 

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I think Jon being legitimate undermines the theme of bastardy not actually being a moral failing. Not that anyone would actually recognize an annulment of a royal marriage that wasn't recorded or performed by the High Septon himself.

Also, Daenerys could just legitimize Jon before marrying him so that it would be accepted by the lords of the realm, if that will be a plot point.

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Unless they decided that following Rhaegar’s orders (for whatever reason) was what they were meant to do, as I said up thread. Mind you,  I’m not saying this is what happened; I’m not even saying that’s likely to have happened. All I’m saying is that it is *possible*, and until we have more information we can speculate until we’re blue in the face and still we wouldn’t know for sure. There are just way too many pieces of this puzzle missing. Imo. 

I was meaning how Aerys would give them permission to serve Rhaegar in the first place. How Rhaegar would be able to 'borrow' them from Aerys who being paranoid, probably wanted them all guarding him.

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2 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I think Jon being legitimate undermines the theme of bastardy not actually being a moral failing.

I agree to an extent but we also have plenty of other characters who do this as well. Mya, Gendry, Edric, Cotter Pyke, some other people on the Wall, Ellaria, Oakenfist and his brother, Tommen and Myrcella, and so on.

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Just now, Craving Peaches said:

I agree to an extent but we also have plenty of other characters who do this as well. Mya, Gendry, Edric, Cotter Pyke, some other people on the Wall, Ellaria, Oakenfist and his brother, Tommen and Myrcella, and so on.

One can never have too much representation of "good example of {marginalized and vilified group}." :P 

And none of the others are PoV characters, much less one of the Big Six, much less someone with a ruling arc! That matters a lot, and it would be silly to make Jon trueborn and detract from all that heroism and empathy from a scorned bastard.

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46 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I was meaning how Aerys would give them permission to serve Rhaegar in the first place. How Rhaegar would be able to 'borrow' them from Aerys who being paranoid, probably wanted them all guarding him.

I know. I meant that there are a few things that could have happened to explain this. Like, the KG basically decided to defect, as it were, and swear whatever vows to Rhaegar instead. Is that likely? No. Is it *possible*? Based solely on what we know now, yes. Hightower arrives and tells the others about the murder of Rickard and Brandon… Dayne and Whent were already close to Rhaegar, with Dayne being his BFF. They’ve all known for quite some time that Aerys was a cruel madman. Rhaegar plans on making a regime change and ask them to swear their swords to him and they agree. We just don’t know, but we can’t say w/o a shadow of a doubt that it is impossible. 
Or sort of the opposite… they swear to Rhaegar to protect Lyanna (and the baby), and never learn exactly what the hell happened outside the ToJ. Again, is that likely? Maybe not, but it’s certainly possible. 

41 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

One can never have too much representation of "good example of {marginalized and vilified group}." :P 
 

Agree.

41 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

And none of the others are PoV characters, much less one of the Big Six, much less someone with a ruling arc! That matters a lot, and it would be silly to make Jon trueborn and detract from all that heroism and empathy from a scorned bastard.

I agree. I don’t think this will happen, but in my head canon Jon learns he’s the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, and not only never shares this w/ anyone, but swears whoever tells him to secrecy. 
He will be Jon Snow, King of Winter. ;)

 

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