Jon was born illegitimate and he remains a bastard.

[Many-Faced Votary]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree. I don’t think this will happen, but in my head canon Jon learns he’s the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, and not only never shares this w/ anyone, but swears whoever tells him to secrecy. 
He will be Jon Snow, King of Winter.

It's a fun idea, but that seems more like a temporary situation than an endgame. I'd be really sad for Dany not finding out she has living kin in Jon, nor do I think Jon would lie by omission to her about something so significant.

[Quoth the raven,]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:00 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

While it is possible for Rhaegar to have fathered Jon,  it is very unlikely that he is legitimate.  Consider the other possible parents for Jon and he is still lacking legitimacy. 

Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Arthur Dayne + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible for Brandon to have married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something idiotic but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard.  Arthur Dayne was a member of the Kingsguard.  He could not marry without first giving up the job.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to give a Kingsguard permission to marry. 

Robb Stark can't legally make Jon legitimate.  Robb failed to create an independent North.  The North can only be independent from Westeros if the Starks had been successful in their rebellion.  They failed.  The Starks became landless and without a home after the Ironborn took Winterfell.  Robb was lord of nothing.  They formally lost their castle and land when Roose Bolton was made Warden of the North. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

Yes, Jon is a bastard. The unfortunate part is the rise of the Others.  Bowen Marsh killed him before he can do more harm to the watch.  But the Others are coming and they are sure to revive Jon from death.  I don't think bastardry will matter to the Others.  We can expect Jon to join the Others.  Sort of like selling his soul to the Others in exchange for them killing the Boltons. 

[three-eyed monkey]

I think there's another aspect to this that doesn't get discussed as much. We should look at the themes involved here, what the story is trying to say. What's the point?

Let's call it the theme of the true king, or twue king if you prefer. This is a central theme in the series and we start to explore it early in the first book, when Jorah told Dany that no one wants to see a man like Viserys on the throne, even if he has the "true king" from a Targaryen perspective. The smallfolk don't care who wins the game of thrones as long as they are left in peace, which they never are.

Quote

Dany rode along quietly for a time, working his words like a puzzle box. It went against everything that Viserys had ever told her to think that the people could care so little whether a true king or a usurper reigned over them. Yet the more she thought on Jorah's words, the more they rang of truth.

There's a difference between the true claim and the true king. Viserys and Stannis had the true claims to succeed Aerys and Robert, but that does not make them true kings. True kings are made by their actions, not their claim or perceived rights.

Quote

"There's much I don't understand," Davos admitted. "I have never pretended elsewise. I know the seas and rivers, the shapes of the coasts, where the rocks and shoals lie. I know hidden coves where a boat can land unseen. And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all."

Davos understands more than he thinks. This point is repeated through the series by people like Dany, Tywin, Cat and the apocalyptic street preacher in King's Landing. A true king protects his people and defends his realm or else he is no king at all. He puts saving the kingdom ahead of winning the throne.

Quote

"... Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."

A true king puts his duty before his rights and not the other way around. But that's not how the kings on the Iron Throne style themselves. We're familial with how that goes.

Quote

"In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm,

Rights come first, duty to protect the realm comes last. The point being that the men and women who fight for the Iron Throne because of their perceived rights or their claim or their lust for power are false kings. Their civil wars, rebellions and coups divide the kingdom and the realm always bleeds as a result.

A true king unites the realm and protects his people, and legitimacy has nothing to do with it. I think that point is better made if a bastard becomes a true king rather than someone with the true claim, as that way the notion of legitimacy and the stigma of the untrustworthy bastard can be dismantled too. Honor is the quality of knowing and doing the right thing, so if Jon puts defending the realm ahead of winning the throne, then he will prove that bastards can have honor, which is the wound that largely drives his arc.

The important thing is that Jon has a claim that he could push. This is the case as the son of Rhaegar, regardless of whether he's a bastard or not. Bastards can push claims and bastards can even legally inherit if there is no one left above them in the line of succession, and there are not too many Targaryens left. Jon must be in a position to push a claim if he is to reject winning the throne and decide to save the kingdom instead. That choice will be an important plot point for his arc.

This is one of the points about silent sisters. It's not that they have their tongues removed, they make a voluntary vow of silence. A person without a tongue making a vow of silence is akin to a man without legs giving up the dance. It's not a true sacrifice. Jon needs to have legs when he gives up the dance, and those legs are his claim. A man without a claim to the throne cannot sacrifice his claim to the throne. This is one of the points the other theories, like N+A=J or A+L=J, all miss.

So I don't see Jon sitting on the Iron Throne, which is essentially a throne of false kings and probably won't even exist in the end, but I do see him becoming a true king. Jon Snow will be the King of Winter, and his dedication will be to keep his oath and protect the realm, not sit on a throne or wear a crown. When the dawn of spring comes and the realm is safe, his "reign" will come to an end but he will continue to watch over the realm for all the nights to come. Just like the Last Hero, aka Coldhands.

Some believe that Jon will become the Night's King, but I see the Night's King and the Last Hero as a reflection of the choice Jon must make. The Night's King made himself a king and became a villain. The Last Hero defended the realm and became a, well, hero.

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Jon Snow will be the King of Winter,

I've been saying this for ages, and even in this very thread. Many laugh. Sweet summer children...

Edited February 27, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Many-Faced Votary]

Jon Snow will identify as Jon Snow even if other people know his Targaryen name. (Whether that is limited to a select few like Daenerys and his siblings, or whether it is more commonly known.)

I think it's missing the point to have Jon keep his name only to himself, because the perception of his name doesn't matter; his identity does, and his "true" name is Jon Snow regardless. It would actually violate another theme (that of family) which runs strongly throughout both Jon and Dany's arcs, if he were to keep his parentage a secret from the person whom he will realize is his aunt. Nor will doing so mean that his Stark siblings stop being his siblings.

[frenin]

I'm sorry but Rickon is the true King.

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:00 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

While it is possible for Rhaegar to have fathered Jon,  it is very unlikely that he is legitimate.  Consider the other possible parents for Jon and he is still lacking legitimacy. 

Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Arthur Dayne + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible for Brandon to have married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something idiotic but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard.  Arthur Dayne was a member of the Kingsguard.  He could not marry without first giving up the job.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to give a Kingsguard permission to marry. 

Robb Stark can't legally make Jon legitimate.  Robb failed to create an independent North.  The North can only be independent from Westeros if the Starks had been successful in their rebellion.  They failed.  The Starks became landless and without a home after the Ironborn took Winterfell.  Robb was lord of nothing.  They formally lost their castle and land when Roose Bolton was made Warden of the North. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

He is that. 

[The Gizzard of Oz]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:00 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

While it is possible for Rhaegar to have fathered Jon,  it is very unlikely that he is legitimate.  Consider the other possible parents for Jon and he is still lacking legitimacy. 

Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Arthur Dayne + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible for Brandon to have married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something idiotic but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard.  Arthur Dayne was a member of the Kingsguard.  He could not marry without first giving up the job.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to give a Kingsguard permission to marry. 

Robb Stark can't legally make Jon legitimate.  Robb failed to create an independent North.  The North can only be independent from Westeros if the Starks had been successful in their rebellion.  They failed.  The Starks became landless and without a home after the Ironborn took Winterfell.  Robb was lord of nothing.  They formally lost their castle and land when Roose Bolton was made Warden of the North. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

Jon is a bastard.  But coming back as a wight will be what freaks the wildlings out.   What will do that will happen when Jon the Bloodless comes back from death after the WW does their magic trick.  The wildlngs will freak and run back to the other side of the wall.

Edited March 20, 2023 by The Gizzard of Oz

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

1 minute ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Jon is a bastard.  But coming back as a wight will be what freaks the wildlings out.   What will do that will happen when Jon the Bloodless comes back from death after the WW does their magic trick.  The wildlngs will freak and run back to the other side of the wall.

When is your Netflix special?

[Corvo the Crow]

Pure speculation.

We have a fairly good idea of who Jon's parents are, Lyanna and Rhaegar, but we have yet to see it written, so it is not set in stone. Jon may very well end up being Ned's son with Ashara and Ned pulled a Tyrion with Catelyn, making his marriage to her as invalid as Tyrion's is to Sansa's and Jon is the only legitimate Stark kid around, Sansa etc. all being bastards (how would that be for a change )

Jon may even be the bastard son of Lyanna and Benjen (that would make a bunch of people here quite happy)

If he ends up as Lyanna and Rhaegar's as expected, he may be their legitimate son through a second marriage Rhaegar made, just like his inbred ancestors.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Jon Snow Wight will have unusual properties for an undead.  Not your typical wight, his mind will be in Ghost.  So they will have to stay close together.  His body is ruined from the knives but it will last long enough for him to learn Mance rescued a fake and he betrayed the watch based on poor interpretation. 

[Corvo the Crow]

8 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Jon Snow Wight will have unusual properties for an undead.  Not your typical wight, his mind will be in Ghost.  So they will have to stay close together.  His body is ruined from the knives but it will last long enough for him to learn Mance rescued a fake and he betrayed the watch based on poor interpretation. 

I don't like fanfic but this one looks promising at least to have a good laugh. Where can I read it?

[Moiraine Sedai]

4 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Jon Snow Wight will have unusual properties for an undead.  Not your typical wight, his mind will be in Ghost.  So they will have to stay close together.  His body is ruined from the knives but it will last long enough for him to learn Mance rescued a fake and he betrayed the watch based on poor interpretation. 

Haha!    Maybe Jon’s spirit will meet Headless Slynt in the hellish afterlife. Actually, they are both headless. Headless Robb can join the party.  Headless Slynt gets his revenge on his former commander.  
 

Headless Slynt vs. Mindless Jon

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Moiraine Sedai

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:00 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible for Brandon to have married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something idiotic but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard.  Arthur Dayne was a member of the Kingsguard.  He could not marry without first giving up the job.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to give a Kingsguard permission to marry. 

Robb Stark can't legally make Jon legitimate.  Robb failed to create an independent North.  The North can only be independent from Westeros if the Starks had been successful in their rebellion.  They failed.  The Starks became landless and without a home after the Ironborn took Winterfell.  Robb was lord of nothing.  They formally lost their castle and land when Roose Bolton was made Warden of the North. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

Polygamy falls under the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, no? Rhaegar, as a Targaryen, can marry multiple people as Targaryens are not normal people, they ride dragons. As Prince, he also kinda does have the authority to approve polygamy. I'm not saying he did marry Lyanna, but if he wanted to he totally could have. 

Robb can make Jon legitimate for those who proclaim Robb as the King in the North, with Jon as his heir. If we are talking legally, the only reason Ramsay is Lord of Winterfell is because he is married to Arya Stark. So, the Starks do still have their land, Ro. And if Theon was considered, legally, "Lord of Winterfell" because he took it for 3 months, then Rhaenyra should be considered, legally, "Queen of Westeros" but she isn't, so he isn't. 

Jon's a bastard, but not legally: Robb legitimized him, and it's actually plausible that his parents were married.

[BalerionTheCat]

The Free Folk have it right. Heirloom is not important. Those who heed that will be dead by the end of this story.

What you are. And what you are doing is important. Jon is the promised prince. Promised by the Old Gods. Marriage or not by a speton is without import.

 

[Mithras]

7 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

Polygamy falls under the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, no?

Absolutely not. Doctrine of Exceptionalism was for incest, blood magic, eating unborn children on a stick and other atrocities of similar proportion. Polygamy is taking it too far. No one in Westeros would stomach that. One has to draw the line somewhere.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Mithras

[The Commentator]

On 3/20/2023 at 6:17 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Jon Snow Wight will have unusual properties for an undead.  Not your typical wight, his mind will be in Ghost.  So they will have to stay close together.  His body is ruined from the knives but it will last long enough for him to learn Mance rescued a fake and he betrayed the watch based on poor interpretation. 

I like the thought of Snowflake learning he committed treason for Jeyne.  That traitor is not going to get any acceptance from the north.  

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

I like the thought of Snowflake learning he committed treason for Jeyne.

'Snowflake' never committed treason. Is he sworn to the Boltons? No, and he did not even interfere with the Boltons. Or the King.

12 minutes ago, The Commentator said:

That traitor is not going to get any acceptance from the north.  

The Text disagrees with you. Be my guest if you want to fight what is actually written in the books.

[Darth Sidious]

On 3/21/2023 at 9:47 AM, The Commentator said:

I like the thought of Snowflake learning he committed treason for Jeyne.  That traitor is not going to get any acceptance from the north.  

 

On 3/21/2023 at 10:00 AM, Craving Peaches said:

'Snowflake' never committed treason. Is he sworn to the Boltons? No, and he did not even interfere with the Boltons. Or the King.

The Text disagrees with you. Be my guest if you want to fight what is actually written in the books.

Jon is beyond feeling regret by now. He won’t be human when the Others bring him back. It is all going to be very basic emotions. Bad feelings like revenge and seeking Arya will occupy his mind. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Darth Sidious said:

Jon is beyond feeling regret by now. He won’t be human when the Others bring him back. It is all going to be very basic emotions. Bad feelings like revenge and seeking Arya will occupy his mind.

How is this relevant to my post you quoted? And where is the evidence for any of that?