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Jon was born illegitimate and he remains a bastard.


Damsel in Distress

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Iirc, they do have a “ceremony” of sorts. My problem is that the women they take for salt wives don’t enter into this willingly. They’re victims who were abducted during raids, their consent is irrelevant, and the men can do whatever they want w/ them. They don’t have the same rights the rock wives have, same for their children. So no, this is not a polygamous marriage, and yes, it is sexual slavery. 

Is this any different from any other Westerosi marriage? Like Lysa?

Cats was happy, but she didn't know that it would be. This could be the same with a salt wife. Nor do I think they are exclusively taken like the freefolk do.

And some salt kids wind up finding houses, like all men despise us.

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27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Is this any different from any other Westerosi marriage? Like Lysa?

Women don't have many rights, especially in marriages, but they do have some. Those rights would be lacking entirely in the Iron Islands' concubinages.

Also, this moves the needle from women being used as marriage tokens (horrible and vile) to sex slavery (pure evil). It is more akin to Dany being sold to Drogo than to Lysa being married to Jon Arryn -- except it's even worse, since Drogo turned out to be very kind for a khal, and these salt wives are generally women with no status or power, who therefore have no recourse whatsoever.

 

I am including this from The World of Ice and Fire for context:

Salt wives are almost always women and girls captured during raids. The number of salt wives that a man can support speaks to his power, wealth, and virility. Still, it must not be thought that salt wives of the ironborn are no more than concubines, whores, or bed slaves. Salt marriages, like rock marriages, were customarily performed by priests of the Drowned God (albeit in ceremonies considerably less solemn than those that bind a man to his rock wife), and the children of such unions were considered legitimate. "Salt sons" may even inherit, when a man has no trueborn sons by his rock wife.

So while they may be "more" than concubines or sex slaves in the eyes of the ironborn, the way the phenomenon is described means that they are just that. The only distinction offered is that their children might inherit (and as I mentioned in a previous post, Fire and Blood gives an example that shows that it was still difficult).

Maybe some captains were "nicer" to their salt wives than others, but that is true of concubines and even sex slaves in general -- which is, in effect, what salt wives are. :ack:

 

Of course, the point is moot. I reiterate that it looks like the practice was ended with the unified Westeros, according to Theon. (And this is part of the "Old Way" that Balon wants to bring back.)

"And warm my bed by night?" He reached for the laces of her bodice and began to undo them, his fingers deft and practiced. "Once I might have carried you home as a prize, and kept you to wife whether you willed it or no. The ironmen of old did such things. A man had his rock wife, his true bride, ironborn like himself, but he had his salt wives too, women captured on raids." The girl's eyes grew wide, and not because he had bared her breasts.

"I would be your salt wife, milord."

"I fear those days are gone." Theon's finger circled one heavy teat, spiraling in toward the fat brown nipple. "No longer may we ride the wind with fire and sword, taking what we want. Now we scratch in the ground and toss lines in the sea like other men, and count ourselves lucky if we have salt cod and porridge enough to get us through a winter." He took her nipple in his mouth, and bit it until she gasped.

Theon I, A Clash of Kings

If there were instances of salt wives being taken, they were either too infrequent to bother going to war over in the eyes of affected/nearby Lords Paramount, or they happened when Westeros was busy with other wars.

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42 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Women don't have many rights, especially in marriages, but they do have some.

Like what? Ned places Cat in charge when he leaves but there's no reason to think a salt wife couldn't either. 

Ned also like forbid Cat to say the word Ashara, so it's not like, great.

42 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Also, this moves the needle from women being used as marriage tokens (horrible and vile) to sex slavery (pure evil)

Ironborn have sex slavery tho, well sex thrallery. They clearly choose to marry said thrall or whomever for whatever reason that they don't want to marry another random thrall who they still almost definitely have sex with 

42 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

It is more akin to Dany being sold to Drogo than to Lysa being married to Jon Arryn

Lysa was married for swords and spears, Dany for bows and horses.

42 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

except it's even worse, since Drogo turned out to be very kind for a khal, and these salt wives are generally women with no status or power, who therefore have no recourse whatsoever.

Idk, there kids are kids of Ironborn. Probably gangster themselves. Probably don't take nicely to people being mean to their mom.

Agreed they don't hold formal power but like when Ned let Cat in charge he actually left Robb, nothing about women in asoiaf is formal power or status, ask Cersei. Doesn't mean they can't still wield power, ask Cersei.

42 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

So while they may be "more" than concubines or sex slaves in the eyes of the ironborn, the way the phenomenon is described means that they are just that. The only distinction offered is that their children might inherit (and as I mentioned in a previous post, Fire and Blood gives an example that shows that it was still difficult).

Maybe some captains were "nicer" to their salt wives than others, but that is true of concubines and even sex slaves in general -- which is, in effect, what salt wives are. :ack:

It's what Westerosi wives are.

Doran had a real unhappy life because of a forced marriage, Tyrions girlfriend wound up getting strangled. If concubines were more politically accepted like it is with Ironborn then maybe it wouldn't be so tragic. Although Victarion would disagree.

42 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Of course, the point is moot. I reiterate that it looks like the practice was ended with the unified Westeros, according to Theon. (And this is part of the "Old Way" that Balon wants to bring back.)

Nah they still got em. Like Vic. That's why I don't think they're all or even mostly thralls but just girls they're married to but can't really marry them because they're below their station like Aladdin 

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34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like what? Ned places Cat in charge when he leaves but there's no reason to think a salt wife couldn't either. 

Ned also like forbid Cat to say the word Ashara, so it's not like, great.

Rights such as a measure of recourse against excessive violence or cheating (depending on the relative powers of the husband's House and the wife's), formal power albeit in a narrow gender role, recognition of a social contract that a husband is obliged to fulfill (even if not officially constrained), some stability in having trueborn heirs, and the Rule of Six for an adulterous wife.

Ned only did entrusted Cat so because their marriage was uniquely strong, and because he isn't quite as misogynistic as the norm. (Compare to, for example, Mace Tyrell's "Tut, tut, Mother," no matter how perceptive Olenna's observations or suggestions are.)

Such an act wouldn't be particularly common with wives anywhere in Westeros except for Dorne, but at least it would be a possibility for wives who had better husbands. Paramours are looked down at even in Dorne (where they enjoy a lot of privileges), and are outright vilified in the rest of Westeros; they would not be allowed any power, no matter what was said, unless they were a great lord (in which case, the paramour would be actively sabotaged). The Iron Islands definitely does not have that culture, and even less with salt wives.

And, yes, there is still a huge power imbalance between Ned and Cat. But it's a lot less profound than some lord of the Iron Islands and a salt wife.

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ironborn have sex slavery tho, well sex thrallery. They clearly choose to marry said thrall or whomever for whatever reason that they don't want to marry another random thrall who they still almost definitely have sex with 

I'm not sure I follow you. That's what salt wives are: sex thralls. They just formerly used to be "married" in a less solemn and less meaningful religious ceremony than true rock wives, back when the practice was not (nominally) banned by the Iron Throne. 

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lysa was married for swords and spears, Dany for bows and horses.

Well, firstly, Hoster sucks even for the standards of the world.

Highborn ladies in Westeros don't get much of a say to whom they are traded or why. Sometimes even lords don't, although we see that they have much more agency as a rule; even Tywin did not force Tyrion to marry Sansa, despite the fact that he loathes Tyrion, who could not possibly get a better match than that.

Lysa still had a lot more recourse due to the backing of her own Great House, and some measure of legal power as a noble's wife in Westeros. Again, she was a token, not a full-on sex slave.  

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, there kids are kids of Ironborn. Probably gangster themselves. Probably don't take nicely to people being mean to their mom.

Agreed they don't hold formal power but like when Ned let Cat in charge he actually left Robb, nothing about women in asoiaf is formal power or status, ask Cersei. Doesn't mean they can't still wield power, ask Cersei.

How often do we see children rebelling against their fathers, the patriarchs of a family? Whether it is for their mothers or for any other reason. And certainly not for a nameless woman with no legal status or power, as a salt wife would be.

Again, there is formal power that women can wield as wives, narrowly as soft power (in fact, they are expected to do this), or narrowly as hard power through special circumstances like being a regent for a young heir.

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's what Westerosi wives are.

Doran had a real unhappy life because of a forced marriage, Tyrions girlfriend wound up getting strangled. If concubines were more politically accepted like it is with Ironborn then maybe it wouldn't be so tragic. Although Victarion would disagree.

I can agree with the point, but I'd still say there are degrees here. The average highborn Westerosi wife is a lot better off than the average salt wife of a highborn ironborn lord. 

Concubines outside of Dorne would only benefit men and further shame and disempower women. I'm not sure it would be a net good, to say nothing of how the concubines would be treated. (Also, lords do have lovers and paramours in Westeros who aren't their wives; it just isn't as formal, nor nearly as relatively progressive, as it is in Dorne.)

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nah they still got em. Like Vic. That's why I don't think they're all or even mostly thralls but just girls they're married to but can't really marry them because they're below their station like Aladdin 

As I said, it was doubtlessly too infrequent for other lords to bother with war; and the ironborn grew bolder during the War of Five Kings, because no one is able or willing to stop them, but also because they're traitors who declared independence anyway, so why not return to the Old Ways?

And, yes, they are only nominally the same, as you described. They're more comparable to paramours at the time of canon than to concubines back in the raiding days.

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2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Rights such as a measure of recourse against excessive violence or cheating (depending on the relative powers of the husband's House and the wife's), formal power albeit in a narrow gender role, recognition of a social contract that a husband is obliged to fulfill (even if not officially constrained), some stability in having trueborn heirs, and the Rule of Six for an adulterous wife.

I don't think they have any of that, but if they do then I don't see why salt wives wouldn't. There are laws out there

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Ned only did entrusted Cat so because their marriage was uniquely strong, and because he isn't quite as misogynistic as the norm. (Compare to, for example, Mace Tyrell's "Tut, tut, Mother," no matter how perceptive Olenna's observations or suggestions are.)

I'm not sure about the norm, but Ned is misogynistic as shit as his conversation and belittlement of Cersei showed. 

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Such an act wouldn't be particularly common with wives anywhere in Westeros except for Dorne, but at least it would be a possibility for wives who had better husbands. Paramours are looked down at even in Dorne (where they enjoy a lot of privileges), and are outright vilified in the rest of Westeros; they would not be allowed any power, no matter what was said, unless they were a great lord (in which case, the paramour would be actively sabotaged). The Iron Islands definitely does not have that culture, and even less with salt wives.

Why definitely not? Even in Dorne women aren't expected to fight. However on the Iron Islands Asha is out there pirating and promiscuating like any other fellow. 

Ironborn are still largely misogynistic sure, but probably less then the greenlanders

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

And, yes, there is still a huge power imbalance between Ned and Cat. But it's a lot less profound than some lord of the Iron Islands and a salt wife.

Probably. But way more then a lord and his sidepiece.

Or again the class structure can come into play, like Oberyn wanted to sit next to his girlfriend at a wedding. What a scandal! It's ridiculous, a salt wife can at the least sit next to her lover in public 

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I'm not sure I follow you. That's what salt wives are: sex thralls. They just formerly used to be "married" in a less solemn and less meaningful religious ceremony than true rock wives, back when the practice was not (nominally) banned by the Iron Throne. 

Not every thrall is a salt wife, only the ones he wants to marry.

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Well, firstly, Hoster sucks even for the standards of the world

Oh yea

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Highborn ladies in Westeros don't get much of a say to whom they are traded or why. Sometimes even lords don't, although we see that they have much more agency as a rule; even Tywin did not force Tyrion to marry Sansa, despite the fact that he loathes Tyrion, who could not possibly get a better match than that.

Lysa still had a lot more recourse due to the backing of her own Great House, and some measure of legal power as a noble's wife in Westeros. Again, she was a token, not a full-on sex slave.  

She's a sex slave with benefits. Swords and spears, as opposed to cows and dowarys. But they're all traded.

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

How often do we see children rebelling against their fathers, the patriarchs of a family? Whether it is for their mothers or for any other reason. And certainly not for a nameless woman with no legal status or power, as a salt wife would be.

I meant against other people. But all the time. Tyrion is a good example but Petyr brings it up a few times. Tully thought maybe Karstsark would.

And they have legal status, hence the "wife", and power can be funny in the greenlands. Varys got this whole riddle for it. But in the islands it's a ship and crew, it's not hard to wield power and influence. (Not the wives directly but there kids, which would make them kinda powerful)

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Again, there is formal power that women can wield as wives, narrowly as soft power (in fact, they are expected to do this), or narrowly as hard power through special circumstances like being a regent for a young heir.

Exactly. Like being the love of the Lord or having a trueborn kid who's a badass navel commander. 

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I can agree with the point, but I'd still say there are degrees here. The average highborn Westerosi wife is a lot better off than the average salt wife of a highborn ironborn lord.

I see no reason to believe that's true 

Eta. Yea I mean I guess it is true, because being a second or third or whatever wife does sound terrible and misogynistic and backwards as shit. But the alternative can be bad too and I don't think salt wives are destined to be miserable 

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Concubines outside of Dorne would only benefit men and further shame and disempower women. I'm not sure it would be a net good, to say nothing of how the concubines would be treated. (Also, lords do have lovers and paramours in Westeros who aren't their wives; it just isn't as formal, nor nearly as relatively progressive, as it is in Dorne.)

It's not great in Dorne. The kids are bastards, the paramours are destitute once the relationship ends and at the end of the day they're still just a whore.

Acceptance, maybe. But security? No. 

Saltwives got both

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

As I said, it was doubtlessly too infrequent for other lords to bother with war; and the ironborn grew bolder during the War of Five Kings, because no one is able or willing to stop them, but also because they're traitors who declared independence anyway, so why not return to the Old Ways?

Ironborn have pretty much always been doing there own thing, greenlanders sometimes feel like they're dictating policy but usually they just do them. 

Like Vic's been married mad times, and his dad I think had a few saltwives too

2 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

And, yes, they are only nominally the same, as you described. They're more comparable to paramours at the time of canon than to concubines back in the raiding days

Yea, maybe? I don't give too much thought into Westerosi history cuz I find it suspect, and that's like quadrupled with the Ironborn because they are always kicking the grey rats out which in turn makes them suspect in their eyes. And also at an extra loss at there history and customs cuz they're not there so they probably add a bit more then the already existing propaganda 

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ironborn are still largely misogynistic sure, but probably less then the greenlanders

I disagree. Asha is the exception rather than the rule, and she is Balon's daughter. There may be some female captains but I would expect salt wives to be treated worse than wives elsewhere because at least in theory the marriages elsewhere are consensual, and since people are either peasants not moving around or nobles with armies, the wife has her family to support her if things go wrong. The salt 'wives' have none of this, they are taken in raids like the poor slaves we see in Essos. Asha is the only female Ironborn we see in any position of prominence and it is because she is Balon's daughter.

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I see no reason to believe that's true 

I think we're approaching this from fundamentally different perspectives, hence our disagreement. I believe the Iron Islands to be the most expressly misogynistic of the Seven Kingdoms by a wide margin. Certain women might reave and pay the iron price, but only those who are the daughters of powerful men and who fit certain ideals. Aside from this, it is easily the worst of the Seven Kingdoms, from something as simple as women being in positions of influence (not even power -- Asha is the only one we know of!) or how wives and mothers are treated, to the fact that the religion of the Drowned God is explicitly misogynistic and doesn't even have any sort of female priests.

I fully agree with @Craving Peaches that Asha is not at all reflective or ironborn women and their freedoms in general, and even with her special status, she has to be very careful to work within the misogynistic framework of her home.  Her internal narration and her interactions all paint this picture for us, and her clever wit where she turns men's sexism against them is a necessity for her to even be able to talk to them. Even having done everything right and having the only plan that wasn't completely insane, she loses the Kingsmoot due in no small part to her being female -- the split of her votes with Victarion helped Euron's speech immensely and carried him to victory.

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12 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know what the author said, obviously while Rhaeagr's alive they cannot just ignore his orders but when he dies they are not as important as defending the remaining Targaryens and the royal family. Rhaegar is dead then they would not be guarding his bastard before protecting King Aerys and the still-living Targaryens. Their oaths as KG require them to do this. Now they could have broken them but supposedly these guys weren't the type to break oaths.

He literally talked about this tho. Stating that the Kingsguard couldn't simply ignore whatever last order Rhaegar had given them. By the time the news reach to Rhaegar being dead, Aerys was dead and the children were gone.

 

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

LOL yes, it is

There are two different wives that you can have in Ironborn culture and the children from both types of wives are legitimate and trueborn.

Not really no.

Salt wives are glorified slaves/concubines who have fewer privileges than rock wives and whose children are always behind Rock's wife children.

10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It's pretty clear evidence that Jon (and Lyanna) were members of the royal family.

I don't know how pretty clear this is when Martin was outright asked about this and literally stated that Lyanna and Jon's status were irrelevant, the Kingsguard could not disobey Rhaegar and had to stay put.

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

If there were instances of salt wives being taken, they were either too infrequent to bother going to war over in the eyes of affected/nearby Lords Paramount, or they happened when Westeros was busy with other wars.

Salt wives are legal, they just aren't Westerosi anymore.

Once the Green lands became too powerful Ironborn used to prey outside.

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Just now, frenin said:

Salt wives are legal, they just aren't Westerosi anymore.

Once the Green lands became too powerful Ironborn used to prey outside.

While you're right about the ironborn preying upon foreign islands and waters instead, salt wives aren't truly "legal." They are just tolerated as a matter of immoral pragmatism, because going to war constantly is a drain of resources, and the Iron Islands follow all other laws and most other norms.

However, that only goes so far, as we see that only a few of the ironborn today keep what they call salt wives, and they are essentially (usually) ill-treated paramours now rather than the concubines (really sex slaves) of old.

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11 minutes ago, frenin said:

tating that the Kingsguard couldn't simply ignore whatever last order Rhaegar had given them.

They can't simply ignore it but protecting surviving family members would obviously take precedence over whatever they were.

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

By the time the news reach to Rhaegar being dead, Aerys was dead and the children were gone.

Has this been confirmed?

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

They can't simply ignore it but protecting surviving family members would obviously take precedence over whatever they were.

Literally doesn't.

 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Has this been confirmed?

No but this is the logical answer. They are on a isolated position at the other side of the country. News don't travel that fast.

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Just now, frenin said:

Literally doesn't.

Well until we receive conformation either way it can be assumed. It is quite obvious that the duty of the KG to the royal family members would come before their duty to Rhaegar's bastard, even if it was his 'last wish' or whatever, because of the way the institution works.

1 minute ago, frenin said:

They are on a isolated position at the other side of the country. News don't travel that fast.

They do have ravens. And I really doubt Aerys would allow Rhaegar to just requisition KG that could have been protecting royal family members during a war just to guard his paramour and bastard. Aerys is the King and they have to obey. Rhaegar should have had a valid reason.

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5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

but I would expect salt wives to be treated worse than wives elsewhere because at least in theory the marriages elsewhere are consensual

What? How? Who's?

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The salt 'wives' have none of this, they are taken in raids like the poor slaves we see in Essos.

Some are. Not all.

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I disagree. Asha is the exception rather than the rule, and she is Balon's daughter. There may be some female captains but I would expect salt wives to be treated worse than wives elsewhere because at least in theory the marriages elsewhere are consensual, and since people are either peasants not moving around or nobles with armies, the wife has her family to support her if things go wrong. The salt 'wives' have none of this, they are taken in raids like the poor slaves we see in Essos. Asha is the only female Ironborn we see in any position of prominence and it is because she is Balon's daughter.

Yea word. Princesses shouldn't be compared to smallfolk, but what about other princesses?

Imagine Cersei strapping up Myrcella or Mace playing axe tossing with Marge.

Ned was kinda chill when he got Arya a dancing master but he was sure this was a faze. Women don't fight, they are the gentle sex, full stop.

Ironborn don't act like that.

4 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I think we're approaching this from fundamentally different perspectives, hence our disagreement. I believe the Iron Islands to be the most expressly misogynistic of the Seven Kingdoms by a wide margin. Certain women might reave and pay the iron price, but only those who are the daughters of powerful men and who fit certain ideals. Aside from this, it is easily the worst of the Seven Kingdoms, from something as simple as women being in positions of influence (not even power -- Asha is the only one we know of!) or how wives and mothers are treated, to the fact that the religion of the Drowned God is explicitly misogynistic and doesn't even have any sort of female priests.

Name a progressive religion. Like, the nuns for the faith have no tongues.

Balons widow is living in her own in her own castle with her own staff. Asha got that uncle who's in legal battles with his female relative. It is misogynistic and backwards, but not as bad as the greenlands. Certainly now worse.

4 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I fully agree with @Craving Peaches that Asha is not at all reflective or ironborn women and their freedoms in general, and even with her special status, she has to be very careful to work within the misogynistic framework of her home.  Her internal narration and her interactions all paint this picture for us, and her clever wit where she turns men's sexism against them is a necessity for her to even be able to talk to them. Even having done everything right and having the only plan that wasn't completely insane, she loses the Kingsmoot due in no small part to her being female -- the split of her votes with Victarion helped Euron's speech immensely and carried him to victory.

But this would never ever ever ever, happen in the greenlands. Did she make it all the way? No, but further then any of her green peers, yea.

And Euron won because he was the best candidate for the job, and Ashas campaign was totally nuts 

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11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What? How? Who's?

You have to consent to a marriage, or at least pretend to, or it isn't valid. That's how the marriage works. Salt Wives aren't married this was so...

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Some are. Not all.

All of the ones I've seen are...

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Women don't fight, they are the gentle sex, full stop.

Ironborn don't act like that.

Again, Asha is the exception not the rule.

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6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

You have to consent to a marriage, or at least pretend to, or it isn't valid. That's how the marriage works

Poole doesn't give her consent, neither did Sansa. Maybe Roslin did? Probably not. Who else got married? Dany? Arianne was promised to Viserys. Karstsark had to marry her uncle, but ran away and had to marry a wildling.

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

All of the ones I've seen are...

Vic had like 3 or 4 wives in times of peace 

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Again, Asha is the exception not the rule.

Again, compare her to her contemporaries and the greenlands fall short

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31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Poole doesn't give her consent, neither did Sansa. Maybe Roslin did? Probably not. Who else got married? Dany? Arianne was promised to Viserys. Karstsark had to marry her uncle, but ran away and had to marry a wildling.

Yes, but they say 'yes' to the marriage, of course this is not them consenting but it gives this formal impression to the observers, it is regarded as a legitimate marriage. There is formal ceremony. We've no evidence of this happening with Salt Wives, and they y aren't even given the option to say yes or no.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Vic had like 3 or 4 wives in times of peace 

When did he get them? Because he fought in Robert's Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion, and he could have been raiding in Essos as well.

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Again, compare her to her contemporaries and the greenlands fall short

Arya, Brienne... Point is you cannot use Asha as proof the Ironborn are less sexist because firstly she's Balon's daughter so going to be treated differently, and secondly, you cannot use one person as proof for the attitude of the entire population, also many Ironborn look down on Asha because she's a woman. There is no good evidence to suggest the Ironborn are less sexist than the rest of Westeros.

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7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, but they say 'yes' to the marriage, of course this is not them consenting but it gives this formal impression to the observers, it is regarded as a legitimate marriage. There is formal ceremony. We've no evidence of this happening with Salt Wives, and they y aren't even given the option to say yes or no.

We have no evidence they aren't, the fact that they are married and wives tho assumed they do.

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

When did he get them? Because he fought in Robert's Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion, and he could have been raiding in Essos as well.

Idk, I don't think he fought in Roberts nor went raiding in Essos. I guess he coulda gotten all three in the Greyjoy but that seems unlikely 

9 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Arya, Brienne...

Ned couldn't understand why Arya does that though and kept assuming she'd quit. 

Brienne is real low station, but again her dad was very against it and eventually just threw his hands up.

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Point is you cannot use Asha as proof the Ironborn are less sexist because firstly she's Balon's daughter so going to be treated differently, and secondly, you cannot use one person as proof for the attitude of the entire population, also many Ironborn look down on Asha because she's a woman. There is no good evidence to suggest the Ironborn are less sexist than the rest of Westeros.

It's unfathomable that Sansa or Marge or even Arianne would lead troops into battle, I think Asha being the exception is definitely a good piece of evidence 

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Wow, this is all very fascinating and actually quite right on all sides of the argument.  What we miss here is it not actually mattering if Jon is legitimate or not.  I believe early on in this thread it is touched upon that Jon believes he is a bastard and that is the point.  That is crucial to Jon's character and the eventual busting of the trope.   Don't tell anyone but Dany is a young woman which is crucial to her character and the busting of all the other female characters' tropes.  

What I see here is a fairly good representation of a lot of commonly held misplaced ideas people had.  Stereotypes that did not fit all but allowed a certain class to keep others in their place, which is to say, under their thumb.  Cat's children will all inherit before Ned's bastard, who may actually be the eldest, does.  Works for her because she's done everything right and her kids are legitimate.  She does not see the loyalty Jon has to her son Robb nor the love he has for her son Bran or daughter, Arya.  All she sees is threat.  Whether this is her own bias against Ned's infidelity or it is mixed with common bias against bastards is anyone's guess.  When the children are divided Jon is not welcome to stay at Winterfell.  End of discussion.  Jon is only welcome where Ned resides and Ned cannot take him to Kings landing because that would be a faux pas.  This kid can't even sit at the family table to dine with guests.   

When and if Jon Snow becomes King in the North or a Targaryen or sits the Iron Throne or rides a dragon or marries well it will not change his heart.  He will never be anyone other than Jon Snow in his heart.  It is the love of the Starks and the North and the far North and duty and the Free folk and Nights Watch and doing the right thing that make Jon Snow who he is.  It doesn't matter which side of the sheets he was born on or what his last name really is.  That's the point of his whole character.  Just like Dany.  It doesn't matter.  

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