Jon was born illegitimate and he remains a bastard.

[SeanF]

On 3/20/2023 at 2:23 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Haha!    Maybe Jon’s spirit will meet Headless Slynt in the hellish afterlife. Actually, they are both headless. Headless Robb can join the party.  Headless Slynt gets his revenge on his former commander.  
 

Headless Slynt vs. Mindless Jon

 

Jon would lop off Slynt’s head all over again.

[SeanF]

On 3/22/2023 at 9:34 PM, Craving Peaches said:

How is this relevant to my post you quoted? And where is the evidence for any of that?

 You want evidence?  Darth Sidious & co. have no need of evidence.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Darth Sidious & co. have no need of evidence.

My lord...is this... legal?

[csuszka1948]

On 2/27/2023 at 8:08 AM, Many-Faced Votary said:

One can never have too much representation of "good example of {marginalized and vilified group}."  

And none of the others are PoV characters, much less one of the Big Six, much less someone with a ruling arc! That matters a lot, and it would be silly to make Jon trueborn and detract from all that heroism and empathy from a scorned bastard.

 

 

 

I really disagree here. One of Jon's most important internal conflicts is dealing with the taint of bastardry, so finding out that he was a trueborn prince all along will shake his worldview in a way that learning he is Lyanna's bastard wouldn't.

Deciding whether to pursue the crown or put his ambitions aside (that's what I expect to happen) after learning the truth will be one of the most important decisions he will have to make.

Edited April 28 by csuszka1948

[Angel Eyes]

On 3/22/2023 at 5:30 PM, Darth Sidious said:

 

Jon is beyond feeling regret by now. He won’t be human when the Others bring him back. It is all going to be very basic emotions. Bad feelings like revenge and seeking Arya will occupy his mind. 

If he's brought back.

[csuszka1948]

21 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I really disagree here. One of Jon's most important internal conflicts is dealing with the taint of bastardry, so finding out that he was a trueborn prince all along will shake his worldview in a way that learning he is Lyanna's bastard wouldn't.

Deciding whether to pursue the crown or put his ambitions aside (that's what I expect to happen) after learning the truth will be one of the most important decisions he will have to make.

 

 

 

Expanding this, I think Jon's decision will be influenced by learning the promise Ned made to Lyanna.

I don't think it only included protecting him, since Ned feels that he has broken his promise by sending Jon to the Night's Watch.

 

I believe it's important to look at what Lyanna and Rhaegar wanted for themselves and their son. For Rhaegar, we know he believed he is the prince who is promised and when his belief seemed to be wrong, he projected this heroic destiny to his children.

Lyanna wanted to live freely and love freely whomever she wants. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that she wanted her child have the freedom she could never have - to choose freely what life he wants to live instead of being trapped by obligations (chosen marriage) and duties (NW).

 

Jon was tempted by this when he lived with the wildlings, but he refused it so far, unknowingly following the destiny his father imagined he will fulfill. What will he do at the end, when there are no Others to defeat and he learns of Ned's promise? Will he put his name forward in the Great Council to become a King or live out the rest of his life as a free man? I think he will choose Lyanna's path instead of Rhaegar's.

Even the show's ending is consistent with this, although they portrayed it quite poorly (he was 'punished' and sent into exile, I don't think this will happen in the books).

Edited April 29 by csuszka1948

[Bowen 747]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:00 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

While it is possible for Rhaegar to have fathered Jon,  it is very unlikely that he is legitimate.  Consider the other possible parents for Jon and he is still lacking legitimacy. 

Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Arthur Dayne + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible for Brandon to have married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something idiotic but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard.  Arthur Dayne was a member of the Kingsguard.  He could not marry without first giving up the job.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to give a Kingsguard permission to marry. 

Robb Stark can't legally make Jon legitimate.  Robb failed to create an independent North.  The North can only be independent from Westeros if the Starks had been successful in their rebellion.  They failed.  The Starks became landless and without a home after the Ironborn took Winterfell.  Robb was lord of nothing.  They formally lost their castle and land when Roose Bolton was made Warden of the North. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

Yes.  Jon is not a legitimate child according to the laws of Westeros and therefore he will never rule outside of the Wall.  He will rule the Wall though.  As the new Night's King.  The Wildlings will be his subjects. 

[frenin]

On 4/29/2023 at 2:06 AM, csuszka1948 said:

Lyanna wanted to live freely and love freely whomever she wants. I don't think it's a stretch to assume that she wanted her child have the freedom she could never have - to choose freely what life he wants to live instead of being trapped by obligations (chosen marriage) and duties (NW).

I think it is, that freedom clashes with her son's and her family's likelihood to survive, then again that did not stop her before.

I think she wanted him protected at all costs but learning his origin eventually, which Ned doesn't disclosure because obviously and thus failed to uphold his end of the bargain.

 

On 4/28/2023 at 4:30 AM, csuszka1948 said:

I really disagree here. One of Jon's most important internal conflicts is dealing with the taint of bastardry, so finding out that he was a trueborn prince all along will shake his worldview in a way that learning he is Lyanna's bastard wouldn't.

Being Ned's bastard is really the taint, learning he is not Ned's son but the son of his enemy would shake his worldview regardless.

 

 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

On 2/23/2023 at 5:00 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

So either was an elephant and was pregnant for two years or Cat cannot see the difference between toddler Jon and infant Robb.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

So either was an elephant and was pregnant for two years

I’ve used the same comparison plenty of times to refute some of these crazy and unsupported “theories”!

4 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

or Cat cannot see the difference between toddler Jon and infant Robb.

And this as well. And here I’m not even talking only about the mad haters, but many readers who support different theories for Jon’s parentage that would require him to be significantly older than we are led to believe. And not once has anyone been capable of explaining away the fact that Cat fully believes what she is told irt Jon’s age. And there’s just no way in 7 hells anyone could mistake a toddler for a baby. 

Edited April 30 by kissdbyfire

[Alester Florent]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And there’s just no way in 7 hells anyone could mistake a toddler for a baby. 

Especially since she has Robb as a direct comparison and Robb is older than Jon!

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Especially since she has Robb as a direct comparison and Robb is older than Jon!

Exactly that! I’m not necessarily positive Robb is older than Jon, but it doesn’t even matter here. Either way they’re very close in age, and for Jon to be many months older is simply impossible. But whenever you challenge this specific issue w/ readers who support certain theories you never get a direct answer - maybe b/c there isn’t one that would make sense? 

[Darth Sidious]

On 4/28/2023 at 12:13 PM, Angel Eyes said:

If he's brought back.

If he’s brought back. You mean when. G. Martin already built the story because Jon is the future nights king. 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

On 4/30/2023 at 9:33 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I’ve used the same comparison plenty of times to refute some of these crazy and unsupported “theories”!

And this as well. And here I’m not even talking only about the mad haters, but many readers who support different theories for Jon’s parentage that would require him to be significantly older than we are led to believe. And not once has anyone been capable of explaining away the fact that Cat fully believes what she is told irt Jon’s age. And there’s just no way in 7 hells anyone could mistake a toddler for a baby. 

To me this is what makes those discussions so boring. If they tried to make a case for their "theories" then it would had been a little more interesting. 

[James West]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:00 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

While it is possible for Rhaegar to have fathered Jon,  it is very unlikely that he is legitimate.  Consider the other possible parents for Jon and he is still lacking legitimacy. 

Ned Stark + Daughter of a Fisherman = bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Mance Rayder + Lyanna Stark = wildling bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Brandon Stark + Ashara Dayne = bastard Jon

Rhaegar + Lyanna = royal bastard Jon

Ned Stark + Wyla = bastard Jon

Arthur Dayne + Lyanna Stark = bastard Jon

Polygamy is not an accepted practice.  Aegon married both his sisters before the conquest began.  While it is possible for Ned to have married Ashara, he later married Catelyn.  This scenario makes Catelyn's children the bastards.  I doubt this is the case.  It is also possible for Brandon to have married Ashara, in which case Jon would be legitimate but then why would Brandon agree to marry Catelyn.  It doesn't make sense.  I can see Brandon doing something idiotic but too many people would have known and objected.  Rhaegar was already married to Princess Ellia of Dorne.  He cannot legally marry Lyanna even if he wanted to.  Rhaegar was not the king and he doesn't have the authority to approve polygamy nor did he have the power to legitimize a bastard.  Arthur Dayne was a member of the Kingsguard.  He could not marry without first giving up the job.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to give a Kingsguard permission to marry. 

Robb Stark can't legally make Jon legitimate.  Robb failed to create an independent North.  The North can only be independent from Westeros if the Starks had been successful in their rebellion.  They failed.  The Starks became landless and without a home after the Ironborn took Winterfell.  Robb was lord of nothing.  They formally lost their castle and land when Roose Bolton was made Warden of the North. 

My verdict?  Jon is a bastard

Bastard son of Lyanna and Mance.