The Absolute Truth Regarding ASOIAF

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

The true rankings of the major families!

1. House Stark- Obviously the heroes of the series. A strong and close knit family, that’s been wronged more times then I can count.

2. House Tully- The otherside of the main Stark unit, with men like Blackfish and Edmure

3. House Lannister- Obviously not nice people for the most part, but by far the best read.

 

yadayadayada

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

69. House Targaryen- What else can I say that hasn’t been said about them. A clan of inbred imperialist eugenicists, who have been the cause of every single war in Westeros in the last 300 years since they took power. 

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

Houses we desire more of - Manderly

[Angel Eyes]

28 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Houses we desire more of - Manderly

The Daynes for me. There's a lot of mystery about them (Dawn for instance) and they have quite a few fingers in whatever happened in Dorne with Lyanna and Rhaegar (Starfall for instance is the closest castle to the Tower of Joy). Allyria is a bit of an enigma for me; is she Arthur and Ashara's sister (which is possible considering the age gap between Rhaegar and Daenerys) or is she a Dayne by blood but a niece, say Brandon and Ashara's child that's been raised as a younger sister (Jack Nicholson is a real-life example of this trope in action)? Why is it that Ned Stark is spoken so well in Dorne that a Dayne of the next generation has a similar nickname as him, even though he fought against Arthur and (presumably) killed him?

There's quite a few allusions to Martin's earlier work and the fantasy genre via House Dayne, as explained in this video.

[Craving Peaches]

Favourite:

• Baratheon
• Stark
• Peach

No like:

• Targ
• Frey

[Corvo the Crow]

Targaryens value their family too much.

[James Arryn]

I have come to the conclusion that the best major family in Westeros and the ones who should ideally rule after the Targs/Starks take care of the Others is…drum roll please…House Tyrell. This despite none of them being among my favourite characters individually. 

Because they are by a mile the most functional family we see; the Starks had more division and since then waaay too much horror and disturbing development. They will be central to the return of/hope for spring, but w/e remains will not be the stuff to rule the IT. We don’t see inside the Tyrells so maybe Alerie hates Mace or Willa’s and Marg can’t get along, but I seriously doubt it. 

What we do see consistently is that, QoT aside…more on that later…they are incredibly mutually supportive, they truly care for one another and they are all exceptionally gifted. Loras is a young Jaime with better self control and no twincest, Marg is one of the most skilled and adaptive political players we see in the books, Garlan is basically amazing at…everything? And then there’s Willas, who sounds like by a mile the best legal heir to any major house and more importantly the right kind of leader to lead the bittersweet rebuild: a very intelligent and perceptive steward king with an eye for strategy.

We see little directly but everything we hear or see indirectly is a huge positive; forgives and develops ~ friendship with Oberyn rather than pursuing age old grudge over laming, accurately assesses ( of course ignored/criticized by Cersei) the IB strategy re: approaching the Shield Isles and also anticipates their focus on Oldtown. And finally (on Willas) that in a family who can boast two extremely bright chldren in Marg and Garlan, it’s Willas who everyone talks about in terms of intelligence, Marg and Garlan, amongst others, both speak with real love, respect and admiration for his abilities.

And they all rave about his kindness, understanding, wide range of knowledge, diligence, administrative and steadiness, almost a job description for a reconstruction king. Also he was doing real jousting at a very precocious age when injured by a freak accident, very like his younger elite tier brothers, so it’s likely he has a lot of courage and martial understanding even if he can no longer lead cavalry charges. Even Olenna pauses her incessant criticism when his name comes up. The only criticism is LF calling him very able and chivalrous but boring, but first it’s LF and so ‘very able but boring (to LF)’ might be high praise to anyone else and second he was trying to cut Sansa’s daydreaming about marrying Willas in the bud.

Now Mace and to a lesser extent Alerie; George’s penchant for weird and replicable genetics should make us VERY suspicious of Mace’s idiocy, though of course compared with show Mace, book Mace is nowhere near as ridiculous. But anyways, either they are the complete exception (aside from looks) and their children’s abilities and political savvy developed in his court without getting any of it from him, or he’s sandbagging. My money’s on the latter, at least to some extent. Besides, after him, Willas. 

And it’s worth noting that for all his ridiculous declarations of the obvious and unrealistic suggestions on a whim, every plan he actually carries out is prudent and effective and increases or protects his family’s interests. He also understands power projection; agreeing to leave Margery with the HS until her trial but filling the city with Tyrell forces to underline their alternatives at trial. Remember too that GRRM loves anthropomorphizing sigils and the rose is something that famously looks decorative but useless that is actually well protected by it’s hard to notice thorns. They keep their true defences hidden and encourage you to underestimate them.

Now it could be Alerie and QoT…and certainly the Tyrells are much more willing to let the women in the family wield real power and authority than any other great house… even house Martell in the time of the books where Arianne is mostly outside the loop, the Sand Snakes are treated with great wariness and frustration, no women are included in Frog’s adventure, etc. before Oberyn’s death and Arrianne’s folly leave Doran no one else to work with. 

Whereas Highgarden seems extremely comfortable often taking direction from women; performance or not, Varys reports that Olenna talks Mace out of his apparent receptiveness to Tywin’s proposal to wed Willas with Cersei, a move that definitively includes some very real political benefits to House Tyrell*. By reasoning with him.

Lastly we don’t see Alerie much, but my impression was remarkably beautiful, wise, calm, and composed, kind of regal, perceptive and someone who puts others at their ease. The whole is a perfect team, they work together, they protect each other, they pursue a subtle, patient and realpolitik agenda that uses soft power even more than their unrivalled hard power, all while completely maintaining their brand of chivalrous, nurturing, cosmopolitan and hugely popular bounty. They are the without the narrative/supernatural gifts a couple other houses possess which will be essential to ending the Long Night, but come the next dawn they are (imo easiest) the best family for Westeros moving forward. 
 

*With Tyrion disinherited, Cersei stands poised to potentially inherit CR/the West and her remaining son already has a title. Any children she might have with Willas would at least have the legal and practical means to press their claim and expand Tyrell power, if not be the de jure heirs full stop. And remember that this kind of expansion is much more how houses in the Reach play the game rather than their ‘reach for the sword’ colleagues from other regions. 

[Castellan]

24 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I have come to the conclusion that the best major family in Westeros and the ones who should ideally rule after the Targs/Starks take care of the Others is…drum roll please…House Tyrell. This despite none of them being among my favourite characters individually. 

Because they are by a mile the most functional family we see; the Starks had more division and since then waaay too much horror and disturbing development. They will be central to the return of/hope for spring, but w/e remains will not be the stuff to rule the IT. We don’t see inside the Tyrells so maybe Alerie hates Mace or Willa’s and Marg can’t get along, but I seriously doubt it. 

What we do see consistently is that, QoT aside…more on that later…they are incredibly mutually supportive, they truly care for one another and they are all exceptionally gifted. Loras is a young Jaime with better self control and no twincest, Marg is one of the most skilled and adaptive political players we see in the books, Garlan is basically amazing at…everything? And then there’s Willas, who sounds like by a mile the best legal heir to any major house and more importantly the right kind of leader to lead the bittersweet rebuild: a very intelligent and perceptive steward king with an eye for strategy.

We see little directly but everything we hear or see indirectly is a huge positive; forgives and develops ~ friendship with Oberyn rather than pursuing age old grudge over laming, accurately ( of course ignored/criticized by Cersei) the IB strategy re: approaching the Shield Isles and also anticipates their focus on Oldtown. And finally (on Willas) that in a family who can boast two extremely bright chldren in Marg and Garlan, it’s Willas who everyone talks about in terms of intelligence, Marg and Garlan both speaking with real love, respect and admiration for his abilities.

And they all rave about his kindness, understanding, wide range of knowledge, diligence, administrative and steadiness, almost a job description for a reconstruction king. Also he was doing real jousting at a very precocious age when injured by a freak accident, very like his younger elite tier brothers, so it’s likely he has a lot of courage and martial understanding even if he can no longer lead cavalry charges. Even Olenna pauses her incessant criticism when his name comes up. 

Now Mace and to a lesser extent Alerie; George’s penchant for weird and replicable genetics should make us VERY suspicious of Mace’s idiocy, though of course compared with show Mace, book Mace is nowhere near as ridiculous. But anyways, either they are the complete exception (aside from looks) and their children’s abilities and political savvy developed in his court without getting any of it from him, or he’s sandbagging. My money’s on the latter, at least to some extent. Besides, after him, Willas. 

And it’s worth noting that for all his ridiculous declarations of the obvious and unrealistic suggestions on a whim, every plan he actually carries out is prudent and effective and increases or protects his family’s interests. He also understands power projection; agreeing to leave Margery with the HS until her trial but filling the city with Tyrell forces to underline their alternatives at trial. Remember too that GRRM loves anthropomorphizing sigils and the rose is something that famously looks decorative but useless that is actually well protected by it’s hard to notice thorns. They keep their true defences hidden and encourage you to underestimate them.

Now it could be Alerie and QoT…and certainly the Tyrells are much more willing to let the women in the family wield real power and authority than any other great house… even house Martell in the time of the books where Arianne is mostly outside the loop, the Sand Snakes are treated with great wariness and frustration, no women are included in Frog’s adventure, etc. before Oberyn’s death and Arrianne’s folly leave Doran no one else to work with. 

Whereas Highgarden seems extremely comfortable often taking direction from women; performance or not, Varys reports that Olenna talks Mace out of his apparent receptiveness to Tywin’s proposal to wed Willas with Cersei, a move that definitively includes some very real political benefits to House Tyrell*. By reasoning with him.

Lastly we don’t see Alerie much, but my impression was remarkably beautiful, wise, calm, and composed, kind of regal, perceptive and someone who puts others at their ease. The whole is a perfect team, they work together, they protect each other, they pursue a subtle, patient and realpolitik agenda that uses soft power even more than their unrivalled hard power, all while completely maintaining their brand of chivalrous, nurturing, cosmopolitan and hugely popular bounty. They are the without the narrative/supernatural gifts a couple other houses possess which will be essential to ending the Long Night, but come the next dawn they are (imo easiest) the best family for Westeros moving forward. 

Well yes, there is nothing really wrong with them. I think GRRM has created the Tyrells as being a bit 'common' and lacking the romantic lordly touch of some of the other houses. They are not descended from a King of their region - the Tyrell's were hereditary stewards to their monarch. They also have no drops of Targ blood that I know of (unlike both Baratheons and Lannisters). I think he has made targ blood/targ madness equate to a sort of obsessiveness when diluted. Obviously, also, the Tyrells are earthy and of the land. Growing Strong!

The name Tyrell comes from a verb to pull and referred to an animal eg a donkey that pulled at the bit - ie was a bit stubborn and willfull. House Tyrell in a sense are jumped up stubborn stewards. Still, you don't need to be a genius to look after your interests in Westeros. With their immense assetts, Mace's stubbornness and self interest is quite useful. Compare Tywin and how despite all his achievements his neuroticism has ruined his children and the future of his house.

The main thing I noticed about Alerie is that yes she is gentle, motherly and clearly not in the loop when Olenna and Margaery poison Joffrey. Margaery takes after Olenna rather than Mace or Alerie.

[Corvo the Crow]

7 hours ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

Houses we desire more of - Manderly

Damn you! Now I have to listen this for the hundredth something time! 

I really don't mind listening it over and over again but the hour grows late... and Gandalf the Grey rides to Isengard?

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Damn you! Now I have to listen this for the hundredth something time! 

I really don't mind listening it over and over again but the hour grows late... and Gandalf the Grey rides to Isengard?

I have done my part, and may now rest

Ps, this was my first time listening to this and it's epic.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

I have done my part, and may now rest

Ps, this was my first time listening to this and it's epic.

The hundred and first is as epic as the first time, believe me. I wonder if it would be as epic the thousand and first time 

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

69. House Targaryen- What else can I say that hasn’t been said about them. A clan of inbred imperialist eugenicists, who have been the cause of every single war in Westeros in the last 300 years since they took power. 

To be fair, House Stark is a powerhouse of genetic manipulating.  Houses Greyjoy and Baratheon have been responsible for at least one uprising each not to mention many noble houses who supported Blackfyres during those many rebellions. 

 

3 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I have come to the conclusion that the best major family in Westeros and the ones who should ideally rule after the Targs/Starks take care of the Others is…drum roll please…House Tyrell. 

Because they are by a mile the most functional family we see; 

The whole is a perfect team, they work together, they protect each other, they pursue a subtle, patient and realpolitik agenda that uses soft power even more than their unrivalled hard power, all while completely maintaining their brand of chivalrous, nurturing, cosmopolitan and hugely popular bounty. They are the without the narrative/supernatural gifts a couple other houses possess which will be essential to ending the Long Night, but come the next dawn they are (imo easiest) the best family for Westeros moving forward. 
 

Had to cut it, James, in light of the painful things that went through my mind because you are right about so very much.  Still, Euron won't allow these people to continue and this family will be wiped out for the most part in TWOW.  Those left will be driven from Highgarden if Highgarden is even left standing.  I imagine it is too lovely a place for Euron to allow it to stand in his wake. 

There is no denying that the Tyrells are a high functioning family in this tale of family horror.  Their survival is too much to hope for my friend.   

[Castellan]

10 hours ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

The true rankings of the major families!

1. House Stark- Obviously the heroes of the series. A strong and close knit family, that’s been wronged more times then I can count.

2. House Tully- The otherside of the main Stark unit, with men like Blackfish and Edmure

3. House Lannister- Obviously not nice people for the most part, but by far the best read.

 

yadayadayada

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

69. House Targaryen- What else can I say that hasn’t been said about them. A clan of inbred imperialist eugenicists, who have been the cause of every single war in Westeros in the last 300 years since they took power. 

The main reason for House Tully to rank high is because Catelyn's POVs are so good, same as Lannisters are.

Otherwise I'd rank the Baratheon's above them for importance to the plot and Stannis's interesting freaky character.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Castellan said:

Well yes, there is nothing really wrong with them. I think GRRM has created the Tyrells as being a bit 'common' and lacking the romantic lordly touch of some of the other houses. They are not descended from a King of their region - the Tyrell's were hereditary stewards to their monarch. They also have no drops of Targ blood that I know of (unlike both Baratheons and Lannisters). I think he has made targ blood/targ madness equate to a sort of obsessiveness when diluted. Obviously, also, the Tyrells are earthy and of the land. Growing Strong!

The name Tyrell comes from a verb to pull and referred to an animal eg a donkey that pulled at the bit - ie was a bit stubborn and willfull. House Tyrell in a sense are jumped up stubborn stewards. Still, you don't need to be a genius to look after your interests in Westeros. With their immense assetts, Mace's stubbornness and self interest is quite useful. Compare Tywin and how despite all his achievements his neuroticism has ruined his children and the future of his house.

The main thing I noticed about Alerie is that yes she is gentle, motherly and clearly not in the loop when Olenna and Margaery poison Joffrey. Margaery takes after Olenna rather than Mace or Alerie.

I had a theory surrounding a contrast between Margaery and Arya through Sansa's eyes; Arya is Sansa's sister, Margaery is the sister Sansa wishes she had... except that Margaery and Arya have some similar aspects that Sansa fails to recognize.

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

To be fair, House Stark is a powerhouse of genetic manipulating.  Houses Greyjoy and Baratheon have been responsible for at least one uprising each not to mention many noble houses who supported Blackfyres during those many rebellions. 

 

Had to cut it, James, in light of the painful things that went through my mind because you are right about so very much.  Still, Euron won't allow these people to continue and this family will be wiped out for the most part in TWOW.  Those left will be driven from Highgarden if Highgarden is even left standing.  I imagine it is too lovely a place for Euron to allow it to stand in his wake. 

There is no denying that the Tyrells are a high functioning family in this tale of family horror.  Their survival is too much to hope for my friend.   

Oh, for sure. Another example is Aemon/Baelor, Baelor Breakspear, Rhaegar, Renly, fAegon, to a lesser degree Robb etc. ie, GRRM absolutely loves to proffer up guys who seem destined to be very effective kings and then snatching it away. Because his point is that it’s not a meritocracy. It’s not an effective way of governing or choosing leaders. 

[the trees have eyes]

On 2/23/2023 at 4:02 PM, Angel Eyes said:

The Daynes for me. There's a lot of mystery about them (Dawn for instance) and they have quite a few fingers in whatever happened in Dorne with Lyanna and Rhaegar (Starfall for instance is the closest castle to the Tower of Joy).

Yup.

The Hightowers too.  A mad maid and old Lord Leyton not having left The Hightower of ten years(?) while rumoured to be reciting spells begs further exploration.

A certain Howland Reed is overdue a bit of exposition too 

[Angel Eyes]

11 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Yup.

The Hightowers too.  A mad maid and old Lord Leyton not having left The Hightower of ten years(?) while rumoured to be reciting spells begs further exploration.

A certain Howland Reed is overdue a bit of exposition too 

True; Gerold Hightower is a definite enigma for me. I can't imagine, as part of a family steeped in the Faith, how he took Rickard's execution. Also with the Tower of Joy business; Gerold goes back to retrieve Rhaegar but then trades places with him... for what reason?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Gerold goes back to retrieve Rhaegar but then trades places with him... for what reason?

The simplest explanation is that Rhaegar told him to stay behind and guard Lyanna.

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The simplest explanation is that Rhaegar told him to stay behind and guard Lyanna.

Still, the Kingsguard would be counted on in military matters as commanders, as shown at the Battle of the Trident where Prince Lewyn Martell led the Dornishmen and even with Gerold himself during the War of the Ninepenny Kings when he took command of the combined Westerosi forces after Ormund Baratheon was killed.