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Succession final season (spoilers)


Mark Antony
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I've just started giving this show a try...

What is this??? This is critically acclaimed? For what? Bumbling assholes in action?

It is kind of fun to see the natural entitlement of people born insanely rich, the way they treat servants and outsiders (in the family) as effectively half- or non-human ... but plot and characters just suck hard. Even more so as realistically most of these people should not even bother with 'succeeding' their lousy old man in a capacity that means actual work. That's what hired managers are for (in that sense the only realistic character there is the half-mad eldest son). Thus the central conflict is completely meaningless from the start.

But even such scenes get stale very quickly - we got that when they 'discuss' the merits of the hospital the old man is in, the way they judge each other's relationships, the way they treat random people, their stuff and employees.

And then there is the setting. Why the New York penthouse all the time? Especially with the huge mansion in the opening credits. Yes, they would have one such place or a number of them ... but why do we have to see them there the entire time? No park or garden and then silly scenes involving the rabble on the street.

(Have to say, though, that the writers and actors succeed in creating more distinct and three-dimensional characters in one episode than 'House of the Dragon' did in an entire season. And it is kind of silly how they stole the 'jerking out of the window' scene from Macaulay Culkin's brother and gave it to Aegon II in HotD.)

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Um, like Matsson, you're arrived unfashionably late to the party.  Way late.  All the good stuff has been eaten and drunk; all that's left are the ghouls who rule our various countries and don't recognize our existence.  Just like all authoritarian ruling privileged jerkwaddies.  :cheers:

 

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Are they on track to self-sabotage everything, including each other and end up with nothing but their father's money?  No control or positions at WR?  Just four damaged rich people.  I don't know, I still can't see any of the three of them successfully maneuvering themselves into leadership and staying there long term.

Is there a more toxic relationship than Tom and Shiv?  Yikes.

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I was half expecting Tom to jump off the balcony at the end of that scene.  I feel like they've really been playing up imminent physical danger to the characters this season.  We'd seen a little bit of that previously but nothing like this time around.  

The dude playing Matteson is killing it.  Love the pseudo Jim Carrey-ness of fucked up Matteson.  

Love watching the siblings just completely engulfed by their own worst qualities.  None of them can help themselves in the slightest.

 

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35 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

I was half expecting Tom to jump off the balcony at the end of that scene.  I feel like they've really been playing up imminent physical danger to the characters this season.  We'd seen a little bit of that previously but nothing like this time around.  

The dude playing Matteson is killing it.  Love the pseudo Jim Carrey-ness of fucked up Matteson.  

Love watching the siblings just completely engulfed by their own worst qualities.  None of them can help themselves in the slightest.

 

Without daddy around to keep 'em in line Connor somehow becomes the most soberminded person in the family. 

Yikes! 

Marcia, again, the smartest person in the room. Cashed out and out, baby! 

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I've just started giving this show a try...

What is this??? This is critically acclaimed? For what? Bumbling assholes in action?

It is kind of fun to see the natural entitlement of people born insanely rich, the way they treat servants and outsiders (in the family) as effectively half- or non-human ... but plot and characters just suck hard. Even more so as realistically most of these people should not even bother with 'succeeding' their lousy old man in a capacity that means actual work. That's what hired managers are for (in that sense the only realistic character there is the half-mad eldest son). Thus the central conflict is completely meaningless from the start.

But even such scenes get stale very quickly - we got that when they 'discuss' the merits of the hospital the old man is in, the way they judge each other's relationships, the way they treat random people, their stuff and employees.

And then there is the setting. Why the New York penthouse all the time? Especially with the huge mansion in the opening credits. Yes, they would have one such place or a number of them ... but why do we have to see them there the entire time? No park or garden and then silly scenes involving the rabble on the street.

(Have to say, though, that the writers and actors succeed in creating more distinct and three-dimensional characters in one episode than 'House of the Dragon' did in an entire season. And it is kind of silly how they stole the 'jerking out of the window' scene from Macaulay Culkin's brother and gave it to Aegon II in HotD.)

For the writing and the satire which is sharper than a serpent's tooth.  Yes, I think the meaninglessness of everything the family does outside of Logan Roy is part of the message, as is the fact that everything they do, even when it seems like they're doing something big is really running in place.  

Edited by Cas Stark
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1 hour ago, Larry of the Lake said:

The dude playing Matteson is killing it.  Love the pseudo Jim Carrey-ness of fucked up Matteson

Skargsgård clan represent! Of course, Alexander is not in fact from blessed Göteborg, but is instead a detestable "Noll-8" (08, the area code for the Stockholm region), but can't hold that against him when he's doing such a good job.

I don't know how many of you have looked at Twitch streamers, but some of his mannerisms and speaking ticks made me wonder if he borrowed a couple of things from a streamer known as XQC. Not XQC's Adderall-addled ADHD mumbling-a-thousand-words-a-minute, but some of the way he was moving around his hands and uhming-and-ahming felt very XQC-ish, just slowed  massively. 

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4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

For the writing and the satire which is sharper than a serpent's tooth.  Yes, I think the meaninglessness of everything the family does outside of Logan Roy is part of the message, as is the fact that everything they do, even when it seems like they're doing something big is really running in place.  

But what is the point of 'satire' in that context? As I said, only caricatures of rich people would do this kind of thing - running a corporation like that is hard work. And they don't have to work ... so why bother? They are not winning anything by winning the race. Aside from the standard thing of winning the love/respect of the old man who ignored you all when you were children there is really no substance there.

It is also pretty clear that there is literally no plot as those people could only suffer real losses if they do unrealistically stupid things.

Is it meant to be painful to watch? Because aside from Logan's wife there are no sympathetic characters - especially the fiancé of the daughter seems to be written to be the perfect asshole.

The writing is pretty good, but I'm seriously flabbergasted that this is a critically acclaimed TV show.

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But what is the point of 'satire' in that context? As I said, only caricatures of rich people would do this kind of thing - running a corporation like that is hard work. And they don't have to work ... so why bother? They are not winning anything by winning the race. Aside from the standard thing of winning the love/respect of the old man who ignored you all when you were children there is really no substance there.

It is also pretty clear that there is literally no plot as those people could only suffer real losses if they do unrealistically stupid things.

Is it meant to be painful to watch? Because aside from Logan's wife there are no sympathetic characters - especially the fiancé of the daughter seems to be written to be the perfect asshole.

The writing is pretty good, but I'm seriously flabbergasted that this is a critically acclaimed TV show.

Murdoch's children work at the company he founded and have feuded and tried to take control/undercut each other, at least the sons have...so that is reality based.  That is the substance...winning approval from your father who will never give, and so has damaged you to the point that you are an 'unserious' person not fit for the jobs he wanted you to have.

Yes I think it is supposed to be difficult to watch.

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I loathed this show from the gitgo -- watched it because I had to for work.

But this season -- it is brilliant, terribly truthful.  Waystar Royco Family is our country.  Everybody hates everybody and will kill if they can. And outside of US, everybody hates us too. And these Royco etc. find all of the rest of us disgusting, not even worth thinking about other than how to $cam, pillage, exploit every last dollar out of us. 

BTW, Tom's a cockroach, nothing will destroy him.  I guess one shouldn't be puzzled that a guy who laffs at people losing their livelihood still doesn't notice his wife is pregnant.  That's how much attention any of them pay to anyone but "ME."

In the meantime it is revealed – are we surprised? NO! --  that Matsson’s isn’t sitting as pretty as everyone thinks coz the numbers of subs out of India are wildly inflated. Quite the same as Kendall inflating through imagination the numbers of Life+, which somehow none of the Roys manage to recall, while they gasp righteously at the very idea of inflating numbers to run up value of Matsson's company. One does feel slightly disappointed that this EviLe SOB is revealed not as smart as he’s been telling us. Like musk, he can't code either, but is very good at appropriating others' genius and labor.  I.e. not a single person here is smart or capable doing anything themselves. Yet they run the world.

If they hadn't made the wise decision to pull the plug after season 4, season 4 wouldn't be brilliant. While we did need previous content to get to this season's brilliance, I'm not sure we needed three previous seasons.

The sooner they all die, the better.

 

Edited by Zorral
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2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Murdoch's children work at the company he founded and have feuded and tried to take control/undercut each other, at least the sons have...so that is reality based.  That is the substance...winning approval from your father who will never give, and so has damaged you to the point that you are an 'unserious' person not fit for the jobs he wanted you to have.

Yes I think it is supposed to be difficult to watch.

Yes, also it's a portrait of how an evil prick, Logan, himself abused as a child, unleashes abuse on his family, his employees, and with his company, in the world, and the consequences of that.

Edited by Winterfell is Burning
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1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yes, also it's a portrait of how an evil prick, Logan, himself abused as a child, unleashes abuse on his family, his employees, and with his company, in the world, and the consequences of that.

It also shows how Logan sabotaged his fondest dream.  Once he had the billions, other than generally amusing himself by throwing his weight around and playing mindgames, what he wanted was to have children he was proud of who could inherit his empire and do it justice.  But the personality traits that made him successful as a cut throat entrepreneur ensured failure as a parent.  His children are 'unserious' in addition to being dysfunctional and damaged.  I don't know that this black comedy/family drama will really go all King Lear and have a tragic death in the next ?3? episodes.  The kids will screw up the deal, or not, but either way, they're all going to be out at Waystar, and maybe rupturing their relationships with each other as well.  I'm sure there is something more creative that will also happen, but I don't think I see any one or all of them 'winning' what they want to win.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

.

The writing is pretty good, but I'm seriously flabbergasted that this is a critically acclaimed TV show.

The writing has been consistently excellent, the acting outstanding, and character development through little details really builds up.  There isn't a wasted shot.  If you blink you will miss something.  

If plot was everything, every show would just be rehashed PG Wodehouse.

 

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5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Murdoch's children work at the company he founded and have feuded and tried to take control/undercut each other, at least the sons have...so that is reality based.  That is the substance...winning approval from your father who will never give, and so has damaged you to the point that you are an 'unserious' person not fit for the jobs he wanted you to have.

Yes I think it is supposed to be difficult to watch.

I didn't know the entire show was based on the Murdoch family. I thought they were using them merely as the template for the billionaire setting, perhaps going with media because it makes the most sense in context. Although the entire political agenda of rightwing media has, so far, been not touched upon at all.

People who are born to wealth rarely feel the need to prove to themselves or others that they 'make money', they just have it. And we effectively have that attitude very much with Logan's kids there. It actually feels more realistic that they would actually mock their old man for his expectation that they actually work for him.

What is actually disgusting in the setting, though, is a character like that Tom guy who is clearly not born to (great) wealth is the biggest asshole and abuser I ever saw on television. How he could survive with that attitude five minutes in that environment makes no sense to me - but it also makes the non-billionaire outsider guy even worse than the guys themselves. And his picking on the grand-nephew actually feels like complete stupidity - that guy actually is family, he might one day inherit shares in his own right and/or his grandfather's seat on the board ... whereas Tom is nothing but his future wife's little plaything. I know that they likely intend to show him being to a point twisted around by his place in the family environment, but he doesn't seem to be part of that for long, so he must have been a huge asshole for a long time before even meeting Shiv. Thinking he can treat people in this family in this way feels like he would never ever get where he is now because he would have had that attitude before - shit like that should be for underlings at work, staff, servants ... but not for people in the family who could, perhaps, outfox you.

2 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yes, also it's a portrait of how an abuser, Logan, himself abused as a child, unleashes it on his family, his employees, and by his company, in the world, and the consequences of that.

Not at that point, but so far I don't see Logan as all that abusive (gotten to episode 6, I think), nor the children being so messed up because they were abused. They are just incompetent and stupid spoiled brats. In season 1 Logan is the last character who needs some humane or tragic backstory element. Is a grumpy and done old man, suffering, perhaps, from early senility and the after effects of his illness.

I mean, even in the pilot Marcia clearly fucks with him by completely ignoring his directive to have no surprise around the elevator when he comes back.

And the entire pissing stuff doesn't seem as a deliberate humiliation thing as he actually pissed at the wrong spot even before his brain thing - in the very first scene of the show.

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

It also shows how Logan sabotaged his fondest dream.  Once he had the billions, other than generally amusing himself by throwing his weight around and playing mindgames, what he wanted was to have children he was proud of who could inherit his empire and do it justice.  But the personality traits that made him successful as a cut throat entrepreneur ensured failure as a parent.  His children are 'unserious' in addition to being dysfunctional and damaged.  I don't know that this black comedy/family drama will really go all King Lear and have a tragic death in the next ?3? episodes.  The kids will screw up the deal, or not, but either way, they're all going to be out at Waystar, and maybe rupturing their relationships with each other as well.  I'm sure there is something more creative that will also happen, but I don't think I see any one or all of them 'winning' what they want to win.

Not sure how he could have fucked up the kids so much. They would have had a mother, too, and they should have had nannies and tutors and replacement father figures aplenty. Especially for people like that - who do have the resources to do anything - sticking with a fucked up birth family strikes one as very unrealistic if they really loathe each other.

I'd have to continue watching to check if the humane element gets more traction - there is certainly a family thing there with them bothering with family feasts and making an outward family show with their foundation events and stuff. That is nothing they would have to do.

I've read that wife #2 eventually features, but I'd be more interested in learning more about wife #1. Is she still alive?

25 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

The writing has been consistently excellent, the acting outstanding, and character development through little details really builds up.  There isn't a wasted shot.  If you blink you will miss something.  

If plot was everything, every show would just be rehashed PG Wodehouse.

It is not just the plot, it is also theme, subject matter, and characterization. These people do suck. What they do sucks as well. That they might suck in interesting and well-written ways doesn't change the big picture.

Mind you, the exploration of the lives of rich-as-shit people is not bad ... but using a succession struggle/corporation drama as the narrative frame there doesn't strike me as a smart decision.

'The Gilded Age' has the cutthroat industrialist and his son deal with such an issue in a very great manner - 'You are a great manager guy, dad. I'm not. I'll have to find my own thing where I be great at.' Some thinking, struggling with the idea. 'Yes, son. You are right there. Sad that you won't work for me, but so be it.'

The idea that huge corporations have to be run by the owners is a notion most families owning big corporations rarely follow these days.

Reading that this is supposed to be 'satire or 'black comedy' also leaves me kind of confused. It is actually not funny. The characters are mostly caricatures, but the thing is that this kind of behavior is real and it is also not funny to be at the receiving end of such abuse. Depicting this shows how such people can do it, but they'll always get away with that. It is even kind of childish that they buy off the random dudes in the pilot whose child was humilated at the baseball game. They do not really have to fear bad press, they are not politicians. What they can - and likely do - to random people we see when the youngest son threatens to destroy his personal trainer. This is real and it is not funny.

In context it strikes one as actually quite funny that the youngest son bothers closing the shades when jerking off at the window. Why should he? The whole thing is a power thing, something he does and wants to do because he can. And it would be so much better to have people see him doing it, knowing it that they cannot do anything about it, cannot even complain.

In that context the network lady talking back to Shiv when she pushes her because of the Senator she is propping up feels kind of weird. Shiv can destroy that woman, never mind her standing as a famous face in the networ.. She does have the connections to ensure she is fired and never works again in television. That shouldn't even be particularly hard for Shiv.

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