Succession final season (spoilers)

[Ran]

I'll just join the crowd. Amazing episode. Roman's smug arrogance alone in his apartment followd by his complete emotional collapse in front of the crowd was perfectly done, and then his self-destructive plunge into the protestors when Kendall sticks the knife in him over the eulogy and Mencken turning out not necessarily playing ball was well done. Connor filling them in on Logan having gotten a pet supply dot com's mausoleum in an auction ("$5 mil? Good deal") was great. Shiv and Tom... Caroline bringing the mistresses along to sit in the front row, and that moment of humanity when Marcia holds Kerry's hand...

This show is firing on all cylinders.

My prediction now is that Matsson gets Waystar, winning over Mencken by naming a certain Tom Wambsgans as the CEO, Shiv settles by staying with Tom (while knowing in her heart she's a loser and hates Tom for making her feel that way, which she will no doubt pass on to their child as a continuation of that particular cycle), Greg gregs at an even higher level. And Kendall and Roman? No clue. Self-imolation. Spiral. Taking their money and buying PGM to start up a rival as they once planned.

It's that, or it's Kendall somehow on top, and I can't see how at the moment. 

[Relic]

34 minutes ago, Ran said:

My prediction now is that Matsson gets Waystar, winning over Mencken by naming a certain Tom Wambsgans as the CEO, Shiv settles by staying with Tom (while knowing in her heart she's a loser and hates Tom for making her feel that way, which she will no doubt pass on to their child as a continuation of that particular cycle)

Our predications are now aligned (made mine some weeks back). Haven't thought about Tom as CEA by way of Matsson, but that actually makes a lot of sense. Maybe they'll finally get that portrait of themselves to hang up in their dining room, as Tom wanted.

EDIT - Oh man, what if it's Greg?

Ultimately, while i enjoy trying to predict what might happen, that's not the point of this show. No matter who "wins" everyone loses. The emotionally stunted narcissist billionaires, all the people who have to eat and clean up their shit, and the world at large.  We're stuck in a downward spiral in which the ruling class gets dumber while remaining oblivious to anything but themselves.

Or maybe it's always been this way. It's SOOO cool being a human being.  

Edited May 22, 2023 by Relic

[Larry of the Lawn]

I think Ken, Shiv, and Roman all have some kind of disastrous end, like somehow lose their entire fortunes or worse in the finale.  

[sifth]

4 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

I think Ken, Shiv, and Roman all have some kind of disastrous end, like somehow lose their entire fortunes or worse in the finale.  

I'd love that, but this is an HBO show, so odds are they'll get away with everything.

[Relic]

40 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

I think Ken, Shiv, and Roman all have some kind of disastrous end, like somehow lose their entire fortunes or worse in the finale.  

highly doubtful. Murdoch's great-great-great grandkids are set for life. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Relic

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Larry of the Lake said:

I think Ken, Shiv, and Roman all have some kind of disastrous end, like somehow lose their entire fortunes or worse in the finale.  

I don't see that.   The show has shown us that nothing much ever changes for the Roys.  Their wealth insulates them from consequences and even reality.  They will 'lose' something, probably control of their father's company, probably a few billion, but I can't see some kind of catastrophic 'now they're poor' type of ending.  It would be inconsistent with the show's general theme on extreme wealth, and also unrealistic.  Even losing the company and if all the deals go bad, they would each still be worth many millions.  I don't think either they will do another death.  

[Mark Antony]

Culkins acting was so real. Took me right back to my own dads funeral. I think he may get the Emmy. 
Kendall losing Jess but gaining Colin ya he’s definitely winning in the finale in a Michael Corleone way

[Zorral]

This episode's dramatization of how little of consequence women are in this world, how casually abused and used and despised and degraded as even their lives of are of no consequence even in the realm of reproduction -- which is now openly advocated, legislated and demanded by the nazis and fascists running things -- nothing's done anything like this in mass media.  This was the most brilliant element of the episode. 

But despite the momentary solidarity and even cracking jokes about Logan in the front pew of wives and mistresses, we need never fear the world being upset, as Shiv as casually dismisses another woman, as she does via Willa's eulogy, and eagerly volunteers to serve a nazi. -- or, maybe, for all we know at the moment -- two nazis. Both of whom will stab her in the uterus.

It's seemed that if any of them did us the favor of suicide it would be Kendall, but Rome’s showing this ep makes him a more likely candidate. But who knows?

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Zorral

[Ran]

Speaking of Nazis, Mencken so casually throwing out "Kinder, Küche, Kirche" did make me raise my eyebrow.

[Darryk]

Remarkable show; nothing like it. I hate these characters but can't help feeling for them at times. Kendall really stuck the knife in and twisted at the end with Roman.

[IFR]

Great episode. Roman's meltdown was an excellent character moment that has been brewing this entire season. It's such a fascinating and ironic moment, that this flash of humanity of such a despicable character should so fantastically undo any illusion of control he had over his father's legacy.

And so many wonderful lines. It's a joy to watch all these absurdly wealthy people actively debase themselves and all of their thinly held values in the pursuit of power. Menckin and Mattson really are welcome additions to this dynamic - as the intelligent players of power in the game - particularly with Logan eliminated.

Greg's obsequious line to his grandfather: "That was a good, hard take that you gave" made me laugh. I really loved the utter contempt that audience had for Ewan's earnest speech.

[Gaston de Foix]

On 5/21/2023 at 10:33 PM, Zorral said:

Caroline takes one look at Shiv and knows, whereas all this time none of the men around Shiv ever noticed anything, other than Rome's idle speculation that Shiv's eating a lot.  I'd laffed but, really, with other stuff concerning what the men on this show (and in the country) think about women, it's not funny at all.

 

My mother-in-law arrives tomorrow, and we have been planning an elaborate prank over the last month whereby I have told her that my wife has gained a great deal of weight, and she is not to mention it. 

We shall see if this is a knack specific to moms and whether art really does reflect life. 

[Gaston de Foix]

15 hours ago, IFR said:

Greg's obsequious line to his grandfather: "That was a good, hard take that you gave" made me laugh. I really loved the utter contempt that audience had for Ewan's earnest speech.

I agree 100% with everything you said right until the last line.  The audience didn't in fact have contempt for Ewan's earnest speech; they were moved, shocked and unable to refute any of it.  Even Kendall couldn't really do an encore of his congressional moment with alternative facts and perspective. 

Anyway, I finally finished in the wee hours of this morning (I find the show enthralling but really hard to watch), and have now caught up with this thread.  The riots, the country's condition, I really liked how it was a potent background but didn't really affect anyone's life except Tom.  

My hot prediction on Kendall's arc:

he's jettisoning or losing everything that grounds him and trying to replace it with dad's stuff.  The Jess abandonment (and his childish tantrum was beautifully done). In other words, he's in a slow meltdown like always.  The thing is, he's not Michael Corleone and never has been.  It not going to be meet the new capo, same as the old capo. 

We are way too late at this stage for his reverse-pillage strategy to play at the boardroom (particularly if we are sticking with the consecutive days storytelling device).  So this is going to be a boardroom battle for control of Waystar with Mencken as the wild card, and Kendall has all to loose and nothing to gain.  The odds are already stacked against him.  The olds love the deal, the shareholders love the deal, the Pierce deal is the one thing that the siblings bring to the table but Shiv has already turned her coat, Roman has flamed out.  Empires crumble is just a fact of life, usually after the death of the progenitor.  Logan's will not outlast his death.  

[IFR]

1 hour ago, Gaston de Foix said:

My mother-in-law arrives tomorrow, and we have been planning an elaborate prank over the last month whereby I have told her that my wife has gained a great deal of weight, and she is not to mention it. 

We shall see if this is a knack specific to moms and whether art really does reflect life. 

I must have been born without this super power to immediately recognize pregnancy in women. I have in fact had an embarrassing moment when I complimented someone on their pregnancy and was awkwardly informed that I was mistaken.

4 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I agree 100% with everything you said right until the last line.  The audience didn't in fact have contempt for Ewan's earnest speech; they were moved, shocked and unable to refute any of it.  Even Kendall couldn't really do an encore of his congressional moment with alternative facts and perspective. 

Perhaps you're right, I could have misread it. In my defense, my impression of the scene might have been prejudiced by how the real world analogue of that group would have responded to that speech.

[Gaston de Foix]

45 minutes ago, IFR said:

I must have been born without this super power to immediately recognize pregnancy in women. I have in fact had an embarrassing moment when I complimented someone on their pregnancy and was awkwardly informed that I was mistaken.

Perhaps you're right, I could have misread it. In my defense, my impression of the scene might have been prejudiced by how the real world analogue of that group would have responded to that speech.

LOL.  I've done it before too (also called a friendly mom a grandmom at the weekend at the kid's playground  )

You are right, the real world analogue wouldn't have given a fuck.  The in world audience at that point, though, is just a stand-in for us and they channel our reaction, I think.  Hence the panicked instruction from Shiv to Kendall to tell the other side.  

[Zorral]

5 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

My mother-in-law arrives tomorrow, and we have been planning an elaborate prank over the last month whereby I have told her that my wife has gained a great deal of weight, and she is not to mention it. 

We shall see if this is a knack specific to moms and whether art really does reflect life. 

Well, I took one look at Sook/Shiv's initial appearance in the first episode of the season and I got immediately the actor was pregnant, as was discussed much earlier on this thread.  It's not moms, per se, it's women who notice women and the men (generally/not all men) who dismiss/don't pay attention to women.

Ha! Slate.com did a piece on this very thing this morning.

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I agree 100% with everything you said right until the last line.  The audience didn't in fact have contempt for Ewan's earnest speech; they were moved, shocked and unable to refute any of it.  Even Kendall couldn't really do an encore of his congressional moment with alternative facts and perspective

You are right, and the OC didn't read the room. Ha! 

[Gaston de Foix]

51 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Well, I took one look at Sook/Shiv's initial appearance in the first episode of the season and I got immediately the actor was pregnant, as was discussed much earlier on this thread.  It's not moms, per se, it's women who notice women and the men (generally/not all men) who dismiss/don't pay attention to women.

Ha! Slate.com did a piece on this very thing this morning.

On that note, my thoughts on Shiv's arc which is richer than either Roman's (sexless, dysfunctional) personal life or Kendall's (spiralling downward, love turning to hate for his ex-wife):

1. Tom and Shiv reconciliation is clearly on the cards.  Tom wants children, she's having a child.  Tom wants proximity to power and she's primed to be US CEO if Mattson wins.  Can Tom stay as Head of ATN News if Mattson comes in? I doubt it.  I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and say the new head of ATN News will be Greg - being replaced by him will be Tom's narrative arc.  Mattson clearly likes Greg, he's a Roy, and he's been Tom's righthand man in all of this. 

2. But all of this assumes Mattson doesn't doublecross Shiv once the merger is approved and she votes for it.  I can see her being forced to choose between Tom and US CEO, choosing US CEO, and being doublecrossed anyway.  Yes, she retains stock in the company, but once the merger is approved it's not like she can unwind the merger by changing her mind.  Her leverage, her real leverage here, was the stock and Board seat and voting rights that go with both.  By cosying up to Mattson, and voting for the deal, she'll be a turkey voting for christmas.  So, my prediction for Shiv's narrative arc:  She'll sacrifice Tom's job to be US CEO, lose him, lose the company to Mattson, and lose the US CEO gig anyway once Mattson doublecrosses her. 

This spurs one more thought:  If Mencken blocks the deal using CFIUS (which is theoretically an independent agency but yadda yadda), there's no dramatic tension of a boardroom fight.  The logic of compelling TV therefore dictates that Mencken screws the Roy boys good and proper now that he has their dicks in his hands. 

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Mattson clearly likes Greg, he's a Roy, and he's been Tom's righthand man in all of this. 

Everything you think is plausible all right within the perimeters of the show's set up, except for the quoted above.  Matsson sees Greg as a grubby little clown.  That he might see some use for him is very different from liking or respecting.  Not that Matsson tends to respect many, and I haven't seen him respecting anybody connected with Logan Roy during the show's seasons.

[Winterfell is Burning]

We have been shown Greg firing people for a reason. My guess he'll end up being the one to fire Tom, on Mattson's orders, whether he's in his current position or another.