Succession final season (spoilers)

[Annara Snow]

11 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

We have been shown Greg firing people for a reason. My guess he'll end up being the one to fire Tom, on Mattson's orders, whether he's in his current position or another. 

I hope that happens, because it would be a great payoff for years of Tom bullying Greg to make himself feel bigger and treating him as an underling.

The masks are falling off - if they were there to begin with - and Greg will not look harmless to anyone anymore.

Also, aside from Connor, who's not letting go of his delusion that he's important, the Roy siblings have finally stopped lying to themselves about who they are - Roman that he's tough, Kendall that he's a good guy, Shiv that she's progressive.

[Annara Snow]

17 hours ago, Zorral said:

Well, I took one look at Sook/Shiv's initial appearance in the first episode of the season and I got immediately the actor was pregnant, as was discussed much earlier on this thread.  It's not moms, per se, it's women who notice women and the men (generally/not all men) who dismiss/don't pay attention to women.

Ha! Slate.com did a piece on this very thing this morning.

Nah, I would say it's the women who have been pregnant who notice when other women are pregnant.

Maybe it's not right in your case, I don't know if you've been pregnant, but I have never been, and I didn't realize Shiv was pregnant before it was revealed.

[Heartofice]

24 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Nah, I would say it's the women who have been pregnant who notice when other women are pregnant.

Maybe it's not right in your case, I don't know if you've been pregnant, but I have never been, and I didn't realize Shiv was pregnant before it was revealed.

I think this is more accurate, when my other half was pregnant only women with kids spotted it quickly. I noticed Shiv had put on weight but that isn’t the same thing 

[Gaston de Foix]

50 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

I hope that happens, because it would be a great payoff for years of Tom bullying Greg to make himself feel bigger and treating him as an underling.

The masks are falling off - if they were there to begin with - and Greg will not look harmless to anyone anymore.

Also, aside from Connor, who's not letting go of his delusion that he's important, the Roy siblings have finally stopped lying to themselves about who they are - Roman that he's tough, Kendall that he's a good guy, Shiv that she's progressive.

Astute observation. 

The delusion that they are in control, that they are Roys and therefore important, that they are their father's natural successors may be the last delusion to die.  Roman has, in that sense, already flamed out.  But his being burnt out might have serious consequences in itself.  

[Gaston de Foix]

13 hours ago, Zorral said:

Everything you think is plausible all right within the perimeters of the show's set up, except for the quoted above.  Matsson sees Greg as a grubby little clown.  That he might see some use for him is very different from liking or respecting.  Not that Matsson tends to respect many, and I haven't seen him respecting anybody connected with Logan Roy during the show's seasons.

Yeah, perhaps you are right.  He sees him as a useful tool.  I suppose what I see in Mattson is a Zuckerbergian obsession with acquiring expertise at various things (martial arts, killing your own food), in his words "going deep into things", remember the whole mattress thing, and Greg has acquired an expertise at firing people. 

So yeah, @Annara Snow, I think you are exactly right getting Greg to fire Tom to test this supposed expertise would be like Mattson's deliciously cruel sense of humor.  Maybe even the firing without replacing him himself, although that would make it just that much more exquisite.  

[Relic]

Greg being named CEO would fit this show. The biggest idiot of them all, lacking any sort of morals and conviction, will get rewarded with a top spot. Spot on social commentary. 

[Zorral]

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

I don't know if you've been pregnant, but I have never been, and I didn't realize Shiv was pregnant before it was revealed.

One needs not to have been pregnant oneself to know what's going on at all -- just being with so many women, knowing so many women, loving so many women, who are/have been -- and PAYING ATTENTION TO THEM.

It is true that many women do disregard women and dismiss them the same way men do.  Many women and men don't pay any attention and dismiss everyone who isn't themselves, for that matter! 

[Gaston de Foix]

3 hours ago, Relic said:

Greg being named CEO would fit this show. The biggest idiot of them all, lacking any sort of morals and conviction, will get rewarded with a top spot. Spot on social commentary. 

So I have been reading predictions online (having pinned my colours to the mast yesterday), and someone pointed out that the Mattson-Shiv convo (supposedly) offering her US CEO was worth revisiting, and it seemed someone was in the car with him. 

The most important feature of the conversation is we don't see Mattson until a few seconds in, and he starts of by saying "It's a yes", "yes", with Shiv saying "from..." and Mattson saying "yEAH" excitedly, Shiv saying "great move" and "smart" and Mattson saying: "I think they are interested".  So this is something Mattson is doing that he has discussed with her, offscreen, and we have not seen.  

This is not a (secondary) conversation with Mencken or his team because of the pronoun "they". 

Really, at this stage, it can only be two groups of people:  "Stewy and Sandy's cabal" or "the Olds".   

Mattson's eyes are roaming, and he seems to be making eye contact with someone when he says: "I think I can make a US CEO work".  Shiv naturally infers he has accepted his proposal, but actually the dramatically ironic option is for his words to be literally true and substantively misleading.  There's gonna be a US CEO, and it won't be Shiv. 

I can see it being Gerri, Stewy, Sandy's daughter, or maybe Frank.  I think Stewy and Gerri are the likeliest suspects.  

[Annara Snow]

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

One needs not to have been pregnant oneself to know what's going on at all -- just being with so many women, knowing so many women, loving so many women, who are/have been -- and PAYING ATTENTION TO THEM.

It is true that many women do disregard women and dismiss them the same way men do.  Many women and men don't pay any attention and dismiss everyone who isn't themselves, for that matter! 

Or, you know, they just haven't been around pregnant women much. 

But sure, you telling me I'm a terrible person who hates other women because I didn't realize Sarah was pregnant the moment I saw her on screen sounds like a great theory to post here.

I suggest you make it into some kind of test "A Very Feminist Test: Are you a terrible and deficient kind of woman who secretly despises other women and is betraying your gender?" so it can be used to detect those awful types. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Annara Snow

[DaveSumm]

I also thought of Michael Corleone seeing Kendall in this episode. Felt like some ‘build up to assassinate the heads of the five families’. How well it pans out for him I’m not sure, but I could really picture a final scene of Kendall, old and alone, dying in a chair while eating an orange.  

[Relic]

34 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

old and alone, dying in a chair while eating an orange.  

That was Vito, but he wasnt alone  Michael does die alone, tho, without the orange. 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Or, you know, they just haven't been around pregnant women much. 

But sure, you telling me I'm a terrible person who hates other women because I didn't realize Sarah was pregnant the moment I saw her on screen sounds like a great theory to post here.

I suggest you make it into some kind of test "A Very Feminist Test: Are you a terrible and deficient kind of woman who secretly despises other women and is betraying your gender?" so it can be used to detect those awful types. 

Well, ya, since it's All About You, whatever it is. 

[Clueless Northman]

On 5/22/2023 at 7:43 PM, Zorral said:

This episode's dramatization of how little of consequence women are in this world, how casually abused and used and despised and degraded as even their lives of are of no consequence even in the realm of reproduction

Yeah, even Shiv's mom congratulates Tom but didn't say a word to Shiv, merely acknowledging her situation...

 

On 5/23/2023 at 3:34 PM, Gaston de Foix said:

The Jess abandonment (and his childish tantrum was beautifully done).

Specially because that's not exaggerated fiction for show but genuine typical regular boss behaviour and reactions. Saw it happening live with my boss some years ago - "Oh ok, go" then "Wait, WTF do you think you're doing?" then apart "He's fucking dumb, he won't make it there, he had it so much better her around".

 

As for the ending, Matsson very probably knows that the Old Guard, Logan's underlings, is fully behind the deal, so I can see him picking Gerri. Which would also be the best outcome for the company, imho. It makes sense that both Mencken and Matsson are going to stab their helpers in the back and betray their hopes for smarter options.

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

That was Vito, but he wasnt alone  Michael does die alone, tho, without the orange. 

Nope, Michael too. Can’t move for oranges in that trilogy. You can see him drop it as he dies.

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Well, ya, since it's All About You, whatever it is. 

Of course not. It's All About You, you the one and only Spokesperson for Women Everywhere. Please enlighten me more with your wisdom so I can stop being unworthy! 

[Gaston de Foix]

6 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

Yeah, even Shiv's mom congratulates Tom but didn't say a word to Shiv, merely acknowledging her situation...

 

Specially because that's not exaggerated fiction for show but genuine typical regular boss behaviour and reactions. Saw it happening live with my boss some years ago - "Oh ok, go" then "Wait, WTF do you think you're doing?" then apart "He's fucking dumb, he won't make it there, he had it so much better her around".

Yeah, bosses really go through the five stages of grief.  The weird thing is that even as they bitch about you leaving to existing employees, they still have fond memories/keep a good relationship. 

But also Jess is the only person in the show who has shown even a tinge of conscience - first in the convo with Greg, and now by leaving. 

[Relic]

14 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Nope, Michael too. Can’t move for oranges in that trilogy. You can see him drop it as he dies.

Ohh, you're right. Weirdly enough the last time i watched Godfather 3 it was the Coda edition, where he doesn't die at the end. 

[Gaston de Foix]

17 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Of course not. It's All About You, you the one and only Spokesperson for Women Everywhere. Please enlighten me more with your wisdom so I can stop being unworthy! 

So the M-i-L (who I assure you loves her daughter and pays attention to her), didn't figure it out. 

To be fair, it was dark, my wife was wearing black, and I had been gas-lighting her for a month by telling her not to remark on any weight gain!  But she was over the moon when told.  

I found this well done: https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2023/05/25/succession-finale-literary-influences/

[Zorral]

Wouldn't dream to advise those transcend enlightenment about anything whatsoever! 

[Jace, Extat]

Meanwhile, what a show. I am having trouble thinking of a direct analogue to Kendall's arc in this series. At the beginning he's the main character, then Shiv rose up and finally it was Roman's turn to carry the action late. It's cool storytelling, compelling as fuck. 

And bully for Marcia. Getting out of the game with cash in her pocket (thanks, Con) and managing to be the most morally virtuous character by virtue of a gesture that cost her nothing but empathy and human decency. 

Great show.