Succession final season (spoilers)

[Relic]

7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

What US person would have the guts to put that on tv?

Come on now. Easy answer. David Simon. 

[Zorral]

22 minutes ago, Relic said:

Come on now. Easy answer. David Simon. 

You are right, of course!

I still remain astonished at how accurately detailed of our current zeitgeist Jesse Armstrong et al. made Succession.  And that they know how much this affects all of us presently and into our futures, this blurring of obscene wealth, politics and 'news'.

It felt so clear to me the other night when we had dinner with one of our friends, an attorney who was a part of the legal team that brought the Dominion case against Fox.  When dinner was finished, he took the check, pulled out his card and said, "Tonight's on Murdoch."

BTW, he and everyone were very pleased with how it turned out.  They liked the settlement, particularly because all the information their team has discovered, can now and is being built upon and out by the team for Smartmatic's suit against Fox -- and quite a few other cases too.

In Succession's universe, the nazi isn't POTUS yet -- and there is a legal blocking of the declaration that WI went for the nazi by the governor.  (Ironic they picked WI, as in our own universe, WI's is aligned with the fascists and nazis, enabling wherever and whenever possible.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Zorral

[RumHam]

I wouldn't put it above Sopranos. I think the plotting is a little too ...sloppy?

I hate to sound down on the show because it was so damn great. But as suggested upthread sometimes things that seem like a huge end of the world deal just...evaporate. The vaulter guy as a threat who could take over, the senate and then DOJ investigations, even Kendall's huge "my dad is a malignant presence" ploy. Like you really have to wonder how he went from that to standing on a stage with a modified video of his dead father basiclly saying "Dad great! Dad say this! This great!" with any kinda credibility. He just kinda rejoins the company with no one outside of the company confronting him about his change of heart. 

The woman writing the biography of Logan just vanished, "the kids bought Peirce" basically just went away. It's not that big of a deal but the show did have a pattern of building these things up as huge problems or at least big plot points and then just resolving them off screen I guess.

I'l never know how Greg got out of his congressional testimony when he was the one who carried out the destruction of evidence. They show him flopping around like a dying fish but then the scene ends before they ask him about how he signed out the files, even though we know Gil knows he did it. 

Another thing, and this could be me missing something or missunderstanding but I was wondering: Election night, for the Roy boys it's mostly about "which candidate will block this deal we don't want for us?" Yet then...the deal goes through before the election dust settles, under the current president (President Raisin!) So what...was that about? They enabled a Nazi to possibly get elected because they didn't understand the timing of the deal? 

The show does really remind me a lot of The Sopranos though. Especially the way they consistantly mixed of humor into a serious drama without undermining the tone of the dramatic parts. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by RumHam

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Relic said:

David Simon. 

Pondering more on your comment while doing Red Beans and Rice Monday before this evening's get-together:

David works successfully within the milieus he knows, his Baltimore in which he is grounded, as are all his characters, by family, locality and community, which is why Treme misfired on some occasions (though the music never misfired, and his music supervisor is a Brit, though he's lived here for decades and worked on many US television and film projects), and his other shows did not hit, as that thing set in Queens. And no more could Armstrong & Co. have done The Wire or Treme. Or Boardwalk Empire or The Sopranos.

Succession and its characters only walk through a repetition of senselessly expensive, soulless, anodyne spaces, from limos to apartments, board rooms, pjs*. They have no friends, their families hate each other if they even are on speaking terms, they live nowhere, in no community except equally power seeking backstabbing corrupt insanely wealthy people who also all hate each other, and generally, themselves as well.

Logan was grounded; getting away from that is much of what made him. But he's the only one, and he destroyed even the potential that his children could be.

David’s mission is to show us what is being destroyed.  The Succession universe is where it all has been destroyed already, quite some time ago.  Back in the day even the superrich of the Gilded Aged came from somewhere, from someone.  Think, for instance, how grounded the Roosevelts were.  These neos are literally, as Roman says of the Logan siblings, nobody and nothing.

The Roy family reflect our national tragedy.  These are people who have so much more than any person needs, but they want everything, and if they can't have it they are willing to burn the house than for somebody else to have something.  I.e. Shiv shiving her brother, their father shiving them all.  And then -- the utter lack of soul in any of them -- what person would be willing to work for a vampire who out-and-out says he'd like to sleep with one's marriage partner, even if only liking to do it a 'little bit?'  Josh Hawley, presumably . . . .

* The Roy kids are all still obscenely rich.  This won't change their milieu at all, except, maybe? Without a massive global corporation to writeoff and fund the pjs and choppers, they might not quite be able to afford the purchase, staffing and maintenance?  What do you all think?

Edited May 29, 2023 by Zorral

[Gaston de Foix]

15 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I wouldn't put it above Sopranos. I think the plotting is a little too ...sloppy?

I hate to sound down on the show because it was so damn great. But as suggested upthread sometimes things that seem like a huge end of the world deal just...evaporate. The vaulter guy as a threat who could take over, the senate and then DOJ investigations, even Kendall's huge "my dad is a malignant presence" ploy. Like you really have to wonder how he went from that to standing on a stage with a modified video of his dead father basiclly saying "Dad great! Dad say this! This great!" with any kinda credibility. He just kinda rejoins the company with no one outside of the company confronting him about his change of heart. 

The woman writing the biography of Logan just vanished, "the kids bought Peirce" basically just went away. It's not that big of a deal but the show did have a pattern of building these things up as huge problems or at least big plot points and then just resolving them off screen I guess.

I'l never know how Greg got out of his congressional testimony when he was the one who carried out the destruction of evidence. They show him flopping around like a dying fish but then the scene ends before they ask him about how he signed out the files, even though we know Gil knows he did it. 

Another thing, and this could be me missing something or missunderstanding but I was wondering: Election night, for the Roy boys it's mostly about "which candidate will block this deal we don't want for us?" Yet then...the deal goes through before the election dust settles, under the current president (President Raisin!) So what...was that about? They enabled a Nazi to possibly get elected because they didn't understand the timing of the deal? 

The show does really remind me a lot of The Sopranos though. Especially the way they consistantly mixed of humor into a serious drama without undermining the tone of the dramatic parts. 

A huge amount of truth to this insightful post, but there are some nuanced defenses possible. 

1.  The Senate and DOJ investigations make sense from the perspective of obscenely wealthy as having faded away.  First, these folks have constant legal problems and need lawyers on stand-by that know them (and their history) oftentimes better than they do themselves.  Sometimes legal problems metastatize to the point where they become seriously threatening and even terrifying (such as Logan being on the run from extradition).  But outstanding, expensive lawyers break down those legal problems into component bits, negotiate, resolve, litigate or transact those problems away discreetly so that they fade out of notice.  Senate investigations, anyway, are kind of a dead art.  But there's ample in-show storytelling to support the DOJ's investigation dying, from Kendall and Shiv duelling over the "best" lawyer, to Kendall firing her, to Gerri claiming to dance between raindrops to end that investigation with a fine/reprimand.  Sadly, thats how white-collar investigations end nowadays See e.g., the Chickenshit Club.  I know it's frustrating that folks like Greg can escape without consequences, but sadly that level of incompetence even with open-and-shut evidence is not uncommon.  

2.  Yeah, the Kendall trying to destroy to emulate his dad arc without being called out on it does stretch credulity.  Of course, he lives in a highly guarded and gilded bubble, but no way should he have gotten away with that shit with shareholders and board members. 

More thoughts along this line when time permits.  

[Ran]

50 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I wouldn't put it above Sopranos. I think the plotting is a little too ...sloppy?

I think this is fair. I think Armstrong was moved more by thematic ideas and plotting certain extremes of tension happening for characters, but wasn't interested in plotting it in more depth than knowing the general shape of a season. So he'd throw in one big explosive threat after another, without necessarily wanting the circumstances of the characters to change dramatically (e.g. Kendall still being able to step in as plausible CEO after nearly cratering the company in a public dispute).

It's a great show, but if it's top-tier, it's towards the bottom of the top tier for me.

[DaveSumm]

The thing I always think of with The Wire is how it lasted exactly as long as it should: it had a perfect five season plan, told that story, ended. Regardless of what you think of each season, those are the aspects of Baltimore it sought to portray. 

Sopranos is fantastic, but it basically existed for a while, then ended. It’s entirely plausible it could’ve been one more or one fewer seasons. I’m not sure it had a grand arc to it, it didn’t have a set story it wanted to tell. 

Succession fits that Sopranos mould really. It at least had a concept (uh, succession) but even with that, it hinted at that story right from the pilot with Logan having his episode on the helicopter. And then it just seemed to enjoy existing in that Act 2, and I loved it. My favourite episodes, my favourite moments, will likely be just innocuous ones that didn’t really move the plot along. I enjoy the dynamic of the basic characters, and I’m not necessarily all that interested in who happened to fuck who in the end. They’re all leaving this eye wateringly wealthy, and actually, maybe it’s best for Ken’s mental health in the long run that he finds something else and can always hold to this notion that he would’ve been great, rather than butchering what he sees as his only path in life.

So yea, I wasn’t really floored by the episode, or the season overall which didn’t seem to make up its mind what it was about. Kinda like a great song that doesn’t want the weight of expectation on closing out an album. The show didn’t want the burden of … ending itself? Possibly that makes no sense. Anyway.

[the hound of sansa]

I really liked the finale. There is just one thing that bothers me. 

The last we see of Shiv, she is going to get Sandi with their side. She seems totally ok with ken in their father's chair. She was very determined to not let Tom take over. 

And the next scene she returns and decides that Ken is not suitable. 

Hmm, I don't know. I would have liked to see more of her turn. 

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, the hound of sansa said:

She seems totally ok with ken in their father's chair.

Rewatch the scene. When he puts his feet up on the desk and then just promises Stewy a non-exec chair without any discussion or request for input, she makes a distinctly bothered face.

Ken and Roman had earlier promised to keep her in the loop, a secret third interim co-ceo, and then immediately tried to freeze her out earlier in the season. I think Ken's high-handedness made her re-evaluate him, and Tom, and herself.

[RumHam]

I thought it was werid at first too. You'd expect fucking over/not getting fucked over by Tom and Mattson would mean more to her than not letting Kendall win. I think it makes sense though that her issues with her siblings and indirectly with her dad would go way deeper than her issues with Tom and Mattson. She just couldn't let her asshole brother win and try to become the new Logan. Like Ran said she already saw how he was going to be with his ego unchecked. 

As terrible as Kendall is, I think she made the wrong decision. She could have just taken her money cashed out of Waystar and watched Kendall probably be terrible at CEOing. Now she's almost stuck with Tom, not for money but to save face. I think I understand why she made the seemingly self destructive call in that moment though. 

Reminds me, Connor may not have gotten a lot of time in the finale but I love "I'm the eldest boy!" and Shiv correcting him. People forgetting Connor exists is always amusing. Also is Shiv even older than him? 

[Derfel Cadarn]

Pity we never find out how the election pans out.

Also, I assume the three are still legally bound to buy pearce? Though pearce board may be happy to release them from that obligation than seeing them destroy pearce.

[Relic]

14 hours ago, Zorral said:

and his other shows did not hit, as that thing set in Queens.

I loved Generation Kill and We Own This City. Might actually rewatch Generation Kill, altho will be hard to look at Skarsgard's face for a long while. 

You're right about the "timing" of a show like The Wire vs Succession. It's a good point. 

[Gaston de Foix]

11 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Pity we never find out how the election pans out.

Also, I assume the three are still legally bound to buy pearce? Though pearce board may be happy to release them from that obligation than seeing them destroy pearce.

I think at this point the funding collapses for the Pierce purchase (even with the WayStar cash-out).  Shiv would be out anyway. 

The whole point of the election was that it was all for nothing.  There were moments in the Bush v Gore saga where it appeared Gore was gonna win, so I would guess it would go the same way, with Mencken taking office. 

[Gaston de Foix]

13 hours ago, RumHam said:

I thought it was werid at first too. You'd expect fucking over/not getting fucked over by Tom and Mattson would mean more to her than not letting Kendall win. I think it makes sense though that her issues with her siblings and indirectly with her dad would go way deeper than her issues with Tom and Mattson. She just couldn't let her asshole brother win and try to become the new Logan. Like Ran said she already saw how he was going to be with his ego unchecked. 

As terrible as Kendall is, I think she made the wrong decision. She could have just taken her money cashed out of Waystar and watched Kendall probably be terrible at CEOing. Now she's almost stuck with Tom, not for money but to save face. I think I understand why she made the seemingly self destructive call in that moment though. 

Reminds me, Connor may not have gotten a lot of time in the finale but I love "I'm the eldest boy!" and Shiv correcting him. People forgetting Connor exists is always amusing. Also is Shiv even older than him? 

The thing is, though, she saw getting fucked by Mattson and Tom as two distinctly separate things.  Mattson fucked her.  Tom just allowed himself to be used. 

Shiv saw clearly that Kendall was going to walk down Logan's path in every meaningful way, as you say, whereas Tom just went to the day's winner as she said herself.  She is stuck with Tom emotionally, but not in terms of power.  She's a billionaire - he's gonna be worth at best 40-100 million at the end of his CEO tenure. 

Btw, Shiv is the youngest child. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Gaston de Foix

[Derfel Cadarn]

8 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

The thing is, though, she saw getting fucked by Mattson and Tom as two distinctly separate things.  Mattson fucked her.  Tom just allowed himself to be used. 

Shiv saw clearly that Kendall was going to walk down Logan's path in every meaningful way, as you say, whereas Tom just went to the day's winner as she said herself.  She is stuck with Tom emotionally, but not in terms of power.  She's a billionaire - he's gonna be worth at best 40-100 million at the end of his CEO tenure. 

Btw, Shiv is the youngest child. 

I’d assumed Roman was, he certainly acts like it

[DaveSumm]

I think weirdly, Kendall lovingly exacerbating Roman’s wound was my favourite scene from the finale. That’s the sort of messed up dynamics I show up for.

[Winterfell is Burning]

3 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I think at this point the funding collapses for the Pierce purchase (even with the WayStar cash-out).  Shiv would be out anyway. 

The whole point of the election was that it was all for nothing.  There were moments in the Bush v Gore saga where it appeared Gore was gonna win, so I would guess it would go the same way, with Mencken taking office. 

The point of the election is that, for these people, whether it's a fascist or not as president doesn't matter. We will never know for sure, but for the 1%, is all the same 

[RumHam]

3 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Btw, Shiv is the youngest child. 

Yeah I thought she was younger than him. So he's just adding "boy" for misogony's sake. 

[Clueless Northman]

5 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I think weirdly, Kendall lovingly exacerbating Roman’s wound was my favourite scene from the finale. That’s the sort of messed up dynamics I show up for.

Both ending up basically fighting next to the CEO room and board meeting was icing on the cake. Heck, for a second, I wondered how far Kendall would go being pissed off at Shiv. And Shiv then backpedalling twice in two days. So, yeah, as Logan said earlier, those are not serious people, totally unworthy of being CEO, or of having any serious responsibility - heck, unworth of their wealth as well, to be honest. Heck, considering their cooking mess the night before, I was even wondering if they would all get sick and food poisoning, keeping them away from the board meeting and flawlessly delivering Waystar to Matsson - because yes, all three are that stupid (granted, Connor isn't much better but has the good sense of not wanting to go into big business, though his own stupid hubris pushed him to imitate his siblings in the world ofp olitics.

[RumHam]

57 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

Heck, considering their cooking mess the night before, I was even wondering if they would all get sick and food poisoning

In their defense, all they had to work with were condiments and "the knobbies." If they'd been allowed to use the special cheese, things might have been different. 

God that cracked me up. The woman must be at least a millionare and she's saving old bread loaf ends in the freezer. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by RumHam