Succession final season (spoilers)

[Clueless Northman]

6 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Maybe Menken screws Roman and allies with Mattson with an assist from the elders.  Shiv gets used and dumped.   

Yeah, I'm really wondering if Mattson, who can be quite unhinged and doesn't look like your model progressive, wouldn't actually have made some alliance with Mencken, and Mencken just used the Roys, all of them, before dumping them, allowing GoJo to take over, at best proposing Somalia ambassadorship to Connor, if any, and Shiv is left to be loathed by her siblings yet having no power over Matsson since at the end of the day he used her and it's Mencken who greenlights the deal.

I'm getting a bit suspicious about Mencken's reliability and will to actually help the Roys/Waystar, what with his (too early) victory speech highlighting him not wanting collusion, wanting to be clean from corporate and business influences and the like.

At least, this would avoid having to deal with months of ballots-counting before knowing which president will allow or stop the deal, when there're just 2 episodes left, since then it means both presidents would allow GoJo to pick Waystar.

Edited May 15 by Clueless Northman

[Zorral]

2 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

I'm getting a bit suspicious about Mencken's reliability and will to actually help the Roys/Waystar

Have we learned nothing as a nation (we NYers already knew it) these ilks stab everybody in the back and never pay the bills or their debts or fill their obligations.

[Zorral]

36 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

more meaty than 'rich people suck and face no consequences

Real life, babeee.

This unlikely scenario has crossed my mind. Foreshadowed by Shiv's tripping on stairs early in the season, her pregnancy, which we have all been hyper-aware, revealed to us at the start, is invisible to the characters -- until just now revealed to Tom, and he doesn't believe her -- will she lose the baby and maybe her own life?  Cordelia does die in Lear. But then so does everyone in the family.  In present day America Yay of course, there are any number of ways to die, without, actually, you know, dying.  As Roman would say, "Die ... Die-ish."

[Winterfell is Burning]

2 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

So you think the show ends with Mattson proving he's Logan's true successor and the Roys failing (for good)? Forgive me, but that seems like Season 4 telling us nothing new from what Season 3 has already told us. 

Mattson is also a fraud. When the sand castle he built is revealed, it probably will crash down. So, the show would end with the kids losing the keys to the kingdom to a man that will end up destroying it.

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

So, nothing changed.  They couldn't and can't maintain the alliance, though there is clearly family affection that exists among them.  Each one has back stabbed the other and this continues.  

I think the point is the tension between them has happened because of the inexorable pressures dividing them.  In other words, you can say that Logan's divide and rule strategy was necessary to maintain his own rule, or that it left them broken, or that it was merely a way of preparing them for his own absence.  Maybe even all three.  Season 4 is about running the experiment to see if it was contingent or inevitable.  

I mean "rich people suck and face no consequences" is the dominant theme of the whole show.  But unless you are hate-watching it (or maybe even if you are), even stories with unlikable or despicable protagonists can be compelling and worthy of discussion.  

And, yes, only two episodes are left.  Can the show-runners land the ending? Particularly with the sumptuous pointlessness of Logan's funeral as background.  

[Cas Stark]

No, I really like the show, but I'm disappointed with this season since Logan's death and I am starting to have serious doubts they are going to stick the landing.  

[Gaston de Foix]

45 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Real life, babeee.

This unlikely scenario has crossed my mind. Foreshadowed by Shiv's tripping on stairs early in the season, her pregnancy, which we have all been hyper-aware, revealed to us at the start, is invisible to the characters -- until just now revealed to Tom, and he doesn't believe her -- will she lose the baby and maybe her own life?  Cordelia does die in Lear. But then so does everyone in the family.  In present day America Yay of course, there are any number of ways to die, without, actually, you know, dying.  As Roman would say, "Die ... Die-ish."

Is that Roman or George Santos? Spot the difference! I agree Sniv losing the baby is the most likely outcome here.  

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

No, I really like the show, but I'm disappointed with this season since Logan's death and I am starting to have serious doubts they are going to stick the landing.  

That's fair.  I have doubts too, but you know part of the joy of being immersed in a good story is that it makes it harder to project ahead.  It's a very clever show, so let's see. 

[RumHam]

I do miss Logan. It reminds me of Westworld after Hopkins left. Though without the other problems Westworld had. I think the shows still quite interesting but I'm glad it's ending.

I've never hated Roman more. 

Greg opening the can of lemon water and pouring it on the pollster's eyes was funny but is anyone really that stupid? 

I think if they wanted they could break the "season takes places over consecutive days" rule for the finale. Or the last bit of the finale. 

Connor's speach was great. Is this the first we've heard of his running mates? 

[IFR]

I'm very much enjoying this season. The Coen brothers-esque comedy of dunces torching their lives and everything around them is absolutely to my taste. Unlike the typical Coen brothers characters, the characters in this show are wealthy and therefore innoculated from any real consequences of their own stupidity and hubris; it's entertaining all the same. The character development, the wit, and sheer hilarious meanness of the show is extremely fun.

Roman was a delight in this episode. I like how he has fully embraced the sociopathic businessman he thinks made his father a success, while his siblings fumble around, pantomiming morality in an effort to try to fool themselves into believing they are good people, when they are just as bad and self-interested as Roman.

Tom and Greg continue to be my favorite characters.

[Cas Stark]

39 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I do miss Logan. It reminds me of Westworld after Hopkins left. Though without the other problems Westworld had. I think the shows still quite interesting but I'm glad it's ending.

I've never hated Roman more. 

Greg opening the can of lemon water and pouring it on the pollster's eyes was funny but is anyone really that stupid? 

I think if they wanted they could break the "season takes places over consecutive days" rule for the finale. Or the last bit of the finale. 

Connor's speach was great. Is this the first we've heard of his running mates? 

I'll always pine for the Westworld that could and should have been after the first season.

I don't like everything happening in a matter of a few days, it seems artificial and is an odd way to end things, not a huge deal, odd to me.

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I do miss Logan. It reminds me of Westworld after Hopkins left. Though without the other problems Westworld had. I think the shows still quite interesting but I'm glad it's ending.

I've never hated Roman more. 

Greg opening the can of lemon water and pouring it on the pollster's eyes was funny but is anyone really that stupid? 

I think if they wanted they could break the "season takes places over consecutive days" rule for the finale. Or the last bit of the finale. 

I had forgotten that rule.  Did it start in this episode? 

53 minutes ago, IFR said:

Roman was a delight in this episode. I like how he has fully embraced the sociopathic businessman he thinks made his father a success, while his siblings fumble around, pantomiming morality in an effort to try to fool themselves into believing they are good people, when they are just as bad and self-interested as Roman.

Kieran Culkin was incredible.  I think Jeremy Strong is the most talented actor, but Culkin stole the show here. 

[Durckad]

God, all of these characters are such detestable pieces of shit.

I'm going to miss them when the show is finally over...

[Clueless Northman]

It just hit me that I didn't notice any mention of Congress electoral results. It's like the American democracy is already dead to them, no matter what they claim. I'm going to assume it's a close call there as well with just a thin margin in favour of GOP.

 

As for Shiv and her pregnancy, 2 things:

- I suppose one of the reasons why even Tom is oblivious is because it's supposed to happen just a week after Shiv got her test results, in the show - results who came right after Logan's death, when his funerals are yet to happen there. Of course, in production / shooting timeline, it takes months, so we all can see the physical signs on Shiv (well, Snook actually). But that's probably not just the characters being blind and self-centered but also some attempt at internal chronological consistency.

- Like Zorral said, I fear for her outcome. Not for her life as such, but if they want to wrap up most of the key threads of this season (and of the show, since the pregnancy is a major point in the entire Shiv-Tom relationship), then they might well go for a miscarriage in the next episode or the final one - though that would be quite harsh to have her character go through so much, more than her siblings obviously.

[Darryk]

Shiv trying to cover after Kendal found out she lied about the phone call was hilarious.

[Zorral]

‘They’ve Taken a Toy and Broken It’ Director Andrij Parekh channeled the energy of Adam McKay’s 2016 Election Night party into “America Decides.”

https://www.vulture.com/article/succession-andrij-parekh-director-america-decides-explained.html#_ga=2.140307891.1840004797.1684253546-1211005673.1684253545

Quote

 

.... How did you approach the overall tone of the episode? It seems to have sparked some unpleasant flashbacks.

We shot the pilot for Succession in 2016 around election time. I think our second, third day of photography was the day after the election. We went to an Election Night party at Adam McKay’s apartment, and Jesse Armstrong and some of the actors were there. Adam would be getting these text messages about what was about to be announced 20 minutes before it came on the news. You had a sense. Then, of course, that party went from boisterous and fun to very quiet and people leaving without saying good-bye.

That was the feeling I was hoping to capture in this. What I noticed more and more in American-television election coverage, because of our two-party system, is that it gets broadcast like a sporting event. For many, it probably is sports: the way it looks, the way it feels, that it’s two teams and there’s a scoreboard and numbers. We’re running possibilities, blah blah blah. So it was creating this world at ATN where that feeling exists.

We had a couple of election advisers who worked on various networks telling us how things play out on Election Night. Everything from which states report when to what would happen if something in Milwaukee actually burned down. And there’s the briefing at the top of the episode where Darwin says that no one can tell the viewers what’s going to happen or we’ll lose our credibility. Then, immediately, Tom calls Kendall.  ....

.... So much of the series is about how information does and does not move between characters, but it’s also about how even the information they do learn can be read in multiple ways. It’s always ambiguous or in this conditional space. You’re caught in uncertainty all the time. 

That’s what makes it super-interesting for me. I’ll read the scripts, and we’ll block it, and suddenly you’re like, Oh wow. This is not what I thought it was going to be. Everyone has a point of view, and everyone has a different understanding of what’s happening.

It reminds me of the close-up on Shiv’s face in the boardroom after the election is called and Roman insists it’s not a big deal because nothing is really going to happen. Shiv says, “Things do happen, Rome,” and that close-up feels different from the show’s typical visual language. 

I wanted Shiv to feel very isolated in that moment. That, to me, was more about her communicating with the audience than with Roman. That’s why we isolated and filmed her in the back of the room having come in — away from where the main action is.

It’s rare for the show to communicate with the audience that directly. Was it in the script? Or was that something you figured out in rehearsal?

A lot of the show is shot, at least in this episode, on over-the-shoulder cameras. I wanted that moment to feel just a little bit different.

I kept looking at it and wondering if it was a real shift for Shiv, or if she’ll pull back on it. Is it a moment of clarity for her? 

I wouldn’t say “moment of clarity.” I think it’s more that she’s pointing out what her brothers have done. They’ve taken a toy and broken it, and it feels like they’re just going to go off and be fine. There are no consequences for them. Maybe it’ll be inconvenient for Kendall’s family to suddenly have a bodyguard all the time. But Roman is fine. Roman doesn’t think twice about it.

But for Shiv, it’s suddenly this new awareness. 

I think so.

I’m very curious about what happens in the finale. I had a dream that it does a time jump into the future and Shiv’s standing in a postapocalyptic landscape surveying the damage they’ve all done.

Or they all go to a Buddhist retreat, and they’ve given everything away. [Laughs.]

 

 

[kairparavel]

MC and I didn't finish the episode on Sunday so we restarted the whole thing last night. Two nights of election PTSD was a lot. It was inevitable for Roman to emerge as this particular POS but still sort of sad. 

[Zorral]

16 hours ago, kairparavel said:

wo nights of election PTSD was a lot.

I had to break up watching this too, between the body's recalled muscular terror and the simultaneous urge to vomit.

[Heartofice]

I also had to stop the latest episode halfway through, the election bottle episode nature of it made it really tough to get through even if the writing was totally on point.

By the end it really exploded though and you can really see how Roman lead the company.. probably to complete disaster. His entire model seems to be ‘what would dad do’ but only through the lens of ‘dad was a monster’

[sifth]

I couldn’t give this episode my full attention. Pretty sure I played a game on my phone as it aired. I hate things related to election night. I did some work and played some games on my phone, while watching it.

Edited May 18 by sifth

[Gaston de Foix]

I dragged myself through the episode on Monday.  The memory of spending 2016 election night in the office: sad, depressed, and growing increasingly terrified will never quite leave me. 

Interesting article, that I think gets a lot of things right: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2023/05/18/greg-succession-hbo-nicholas-braun/

What I think it gets wrong:

(i) Greg was never not a jaded meaningless trust fund kid at the start he was working a shitty, dead end job, getting high and getting humiliated.  He was, as much as possible, a normal kind of perspective on the Roys.  

(ii) Economically, being disinherited by his grandfather has cost him much more financially than whatever the perks of sucking up to the Roys.  I know he's suing Greenpeace or whatever, but Greg doing this to become rich doesn't make sense.  Greg doing this to become a Roy (i.e., a cut-throat, ruthless, jaded shark who has learnt how to thrive in these waters) makes all the sense in the world.  Succession is not a show about money; we've known from season 1 whether Shiv or Roman or Kendall succeeds Logan, the others will continue to remain billionaires.  Succession is a show about power; understanding it, acquiring it wielding it, and being stained by it.