Succession final season (spoilers)

[RumHam]

27 minutes ago, grozeng said:

But was Shiv smart?  To me she thought she was smart, but wasn't really actually smart.  She just had a very high opinion of herself.

She was the only one of the kids to succeed outside the company. It's not clear that Ken was succeding within the company, and Roman washed out. At least relative to the others I think we're supposed to consider her the smart one. I never got the impression she succeded as a political operative because of her name. Considering she seemed to work with democrats her name may have even been a mark against her. 

[Zorral]

If the name has money/access to real money and media/power, the name is never a mark against, but for.  That is how it works and how Shiv's sort can look like she's Doing Something, but is merely being courted for money, access to the money.

[Relic]

Shiv was good at PR, until it became directly related to her. And then she sucked at it, jumping the gun and trying to foce the issue over and over again. I think the show went out of its way to show she was, actually, good at telling politicians how to present themselves. 

[RumHam]

28 minutes ago, Zorral said:

If the name has money/access to real money and media/power, the name is never a mark against, but for.  That is how it works and how Shiv's sort can look like she's Doing Something, but is merely being courted for money, access to the money.

I don't think Gil would have taken any money from Logan though. Media access maybe, as he did reluctantly make that deal with Logan.

The one time before that when Shiv tries to exert influence over ATN she gets chewed out by the news manager and told she shouldn't even be there and that's not how it works. So it's not like she kept getting work because she could influence ATN'S coverage.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

it's not like she kept getting work because she could influence ATN'S coverage.

But. maybe, sometime?  That's how it works.  That's why some people think Lachlan is worth courting, bending a knee to.

Moreover, what work did we eve see her do (or any of them for that matter), other than persuade a woman to not bring sexual abuse charges against her daddy's biz?

Like all of them, we never saw them DO anything at all, except blither word salad without content.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Zorral

[RumHam]

10 minutes ago, Zorral said:

But. maybe, sometime?  That's how it works.  That's why some people think Lachlan is worth courting, bending a knee to.

Moreover, what work did we eve see her do (or any of them for that matter), other than persuade a woman to not bring sexual abuse charges against her daddy's biz?

Like all of them, we never saw them DO anything at all, except blither word salad without content.

That's true, but I don't think we can assume Shiv never did any work in her political career just because they didn't dedicate screentime to it except when it brushed up against her family. 

We did see Roman rush a rocket launch!

[dbunting]

11 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Even though Tom is/was a feckless kiss ass, he's also, of the Roy and Roy adjacent family members the only person with any claim to merit.  He was already a senior executive before he married Shiv,so presumably, he has some talent aside from being a lackey.  The actual Roy children, not so much.

Agree to a point. I really thought they were going to show Tom being good at his job when he stayed behind and didn't go to the funeral. I thought wow he is actually working and doing good without having someone there towering over him and him feeling like he has to bow to them. 

[Heartofice]

I always got the impression all of the kids managed to have at least a modicum of talent and business sense, but that they were all crippled by spectacular personality flaws that prevented them ever doing especially well.

I see Ken especially as a very typical CEO type, something I’ve experienced in real life many times. He’s manic and excited and says all the right things, but if you actually look at the decisions he makes it all seems completely haphazard and uncontrolled, as if he doesn’t actually know what he’s doing. I think that ‘fake it till you make it’ attitude goes a long way in start ups, and his character really felt familiar. 
 

All of the kids to some extent are faking it, they don’t really know what they are doing and just lean on attitude to get things done. The thing is, I think that can actually get you quite far, but at the top level you get exposed.

[grozeng]

They all thought they were much better than they were.  I don't think Shiv did anything that proved she could run the company, but she thought she was the best choice.

[Clueless Northman]

On 6/9/2023 at 12:07 AM, Relic said:

And then she sucked at it, jumping the gun and trying to foce the issue over and over again.

Which is the case of all 3 kids - they're terrible and make stupid decisions and moves as soon as they're trying to grab the crown, whatever their few qualities.

Thinking of it, they could've done decent work, had they all been senior staff level but not the top dog, working together for someone with real brain and vision, that could rein them in. Something possible only if they're not billionaires due to dad's pile of $$. Or maybe, as Hearofice said, they're all pretending to know stuff and faking it all, and by sheer luck they manage to hit it sometimes.

 

On 6/9/2023 at 2:51 AM, Zorral said:

Like all of them, we never saw them DO anything at all, except blither word salad without content.

Sure. Still, Tom is by far the worst offender when it comes to word salad, imho. It always made me wonder what he'd actually done before meeting Shiv, but I have to assume he did have some serious office position in some serious place before.

[Zorral]

57 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

I have to assume he did have some serious office position in some serious place before.

Why?

Think about too, why does Shiv hook up with the pos that Tom is in the first place.  Like calls to like, quite the same as the dumster and the illegal immigrant-liar who is, presumably, is final wife.  He rapes and abuses decent women, doesn't marry them.

In case then, you accuse me of saying Tom is a rapist, I DID NOT.  There is no indication he did that, but who knows, in the future?  They get worse and worse the longer they are in power and have the cocoon of a powerful conglom all around them. But there are so many way of being a pos! 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Zorral

[RumHam]

6 hours ago, Zorral said:

Why?

Think about too, why does Shiv hook up with the pos that Tom is in the first place.  Like calls to like, quite the same as the dumster and the illegal immigrant-liar who is, presumably, is final wife.  He rapes and abuses decent women, doesn't marry them.

In case then, you accuse me of saying Tom is a rapist, I DID NOT.  There is no indication he did that, but who knows, in the future?  They get worse and worse the longer they are in power and have the cocoon of a powerful conglom all around them. But there are so many way of being a pos! 

 

I'm not getting what you're trying to convey here at all. Who is the illegal immigrant liar?

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'm not getting what you're trying to convey here at all. Who is the illegal immigrant liar?

You need everything spelled out! Dumster traitor tRump married Malania Trump, who came here as an illegal immigrant.

Who would marry him and who would marry her, except the same narcissist transactional bull shitter criminals, like Shiv and Tom are.  These are not nice people, and never were.  They weren't corrupted at some point down the road. They were always cruel and corrupt from the git go. Both of them.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Zorral

[RumHam]

57 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You need everything spelled out! Dumster traitor tRump married Malania Trump, who came here as an illegal immigrant.

Who would marry him and who would marry her, except the same narcissist transactional bull shitter criminals, like Shiv and Tom are.  These are not nice people, and never were.  They weren't corrupted at some point down the road. They were always cruel and corrupt from the git go. Both of them.

In my defense, I was thinking in the context of the show. Also when I think of Trump "married an illegal immigrant" is not even in my top 100 grievences. 

I don't know if Tom or Shiv was ever nice, I think it's hard when talking about fictional characters who don't really exist outside of the period of time covered by the show. I will say Tom seemed to care for Shiv I think at the start. Didn't want to cheat on her at his bachelor party at least until she gave him the ok. It seems possible to me that Tom was a decent-ish person before he brushed up against extreme wealth, but we don't have enough information I think. 

[Nictarion]

Apparently Jesse Armstrong confirmed Kendall’s name was indeed underlined, not crossed out. 

[Durckad]

On 9/2/2023 at 3:41 PM, Nictarion said:

Apparently Jesse Armstrong confirmed Kendall’s name was indeed underlined, not crossed out. 

I'm guessing Armstrong is still remaining in character when he says this so I would take this with a grain of salt.

EDIT: My bad. Got Jesse Armstrong confused with Jeremy Strong (who plays Kendall Roy) so you can all ignore this. Leaving this up for posterity sake though and so you can all laugh at me and my failures.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Durckad
I am an idiot

[Zorral]

"But of all the challenges and responsibilities of the years running the show, the question that weighed by far the heaviest was deciding when to draw it to a close."

‘This Was Simply How This Story Had to Go’ In his introduction to the season-four scripts, Succession’s showrunner outlines his path to the final shot.

https://www.vulture.com/article/jesse-armstrong-succession-season-4-finale-explained.html#_ga=2.261603597.1448688979.1695228573-1885079601.1695228570

For me, the most interesting bit was this:

Quote

. . . Now if you weren’t a media founder, it felt more plausible for an amenable man like Tom to rise gently like a bubble of air in the tank. A corporate fusion of Kenneth Widmerpool and Joseph Stalin. ....

The interest is equally composed of the unexpected, that Armstrong knows the Music of Time, and wonder, as how many of those reading this bit will recognize the reference.  

[Annara Snow]

On 9/20/2023 at 7:08 PM, Zorral said:

"But of all the challenges and responsibilities of the years running the show, the question that weighed by far the heaviest was deciding when to draw it to a close."

‘This Was Simply How This Story Had to Go’ In his introduction to the season-four scripts, Succession’s showrunner outlines his path to the final shot.

https://www.vulture.com/article/jesse-armstrong-succession-season-4-finale-explained.html#_ga=2.261603597.1448688979.1695228573-1885079601.1695228570

For me, the most interesting bit was this:

The interest is equally composed of the unexpected, that Armstrong knows the Music of Time, and wonder, as how many of those reading this bit will recognize the reference.  

Kenneth Widmerpool Now that is an unexpected reference. I had to read the first book at the university, and didn't enjoy it much, but I watched the miniseries starring Simon Russell Beale as Widmerpool, Miranda Richardson and James Purefoy, so I'm familiar with the character (who also has some things in common with Roman, BTW, but that was revealed later on).

[Zorral]

Jesse Armstrong Still Has ‘a Lot of Sympathy’ for the Roys
In an interview, the “Succession” creator looked back on the end of the show and discussed Marxism, extreme wealth and whether any of his characters were remotely likable.
Nov. 27, 2023, 5:01 a.m. ET

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/27/arts/television/succession-jesse-armstrong.html

Quote

 

....  The writers’ strike precluded Armstrong from engaging in much discussion about the end of “Succession” when the finale aired six months ago. (He spent the strike in London, recovering.) Yet time has hardly dulled the beige sheen of “Succession.” In January it will likely dominate the Emmy Awards — all of the main cast received nominations and Armstrong earned two, for writing and as an executive producer — and no other show has come to replace it in the cultural consciousness. Fashions come and fashions go, but an interest in the ultrarich and their infighting? Timeless.

Over a flat white, not his first of the day, and with occasional pauses to tend to leg cramps (he had spent the early morning playing soccer in McCarren Park), Armstrong discussed Marxism, extreme wealth and whether any of these characters were remotely likable. These are edited excerpts from the conversation. ....

 

 

[DireWolfSpirit]

Only now have I learned that the oldest nimrod son was Ferris Buellars(sp) buddy.