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Could Craster be giving up his sons to pay an ancient blood debt?


Evolett

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Paying back debts is a running theme with the Lannisters. I’ve been wondering if this could apply to Craster too (perhaps there is wordplay on Craster and Casterly), that he is paying for past transgressions committed by his ancestors with his own blood. We can consider Quentyn Martell for more relevant evidence in this regard:

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Quentyn had been very young when he was sent to Yronwood; too young, according to their mother. Norvoshi did not foster out their children, and Lady Mellario had never forgiven Prince Doran for taking her son away from her. "I like it no more than you do," Arianne had overheard her father say, "but there is a blood debt, and Quentyn is the only coin Lord Ormond will accept." aFfC, the Queenmaker

Doran offers his son Quentyn in payment for a grievance committed by his brother Oberyn. It’s a blood debt that Doran felt compelled to pay on Lord Ormond’s insistence. The underlying concept here is that the sins of a member of a family are paid for by another member of that family, in this case a son.

In another example, Doran considers the blood debt incurred by the Lannisters paid when Gregor Clegane’s head is served up in Dorne:

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This is the justice that Dorne has hungered for. I am glad that I lived long enough to taste it. At long last the Lannisters have proved the truth of their boast and paid this old blood debt.”

Here, there is no blood relationship between the Lannisters and Cleganes that we know of, unless being sworn to a liege lord counts as well, but there is still this notion of blood being paid for by blood.

 

Theon also uses this blood for blood argument to justify his presumed killing of Bran and Rickon: Two sons of Eddard Stark to pay for Rodrik and Maron.

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"They defied me!" he shouted in her face. "And it was blood for blood besides, two sons of Eddard Stark to pay for Rodrik and Maron." The words tumbled out heedlessly, but Theon knew at once that his father would approve. "I've laid my brothers' ghosts to rest." aCoK, Theon V

 

A similar idea is conveyed in one of Daenery’s chapters where Jorah points out that the Usurper’s son will pay his father’s debts, even blood debts:

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The Usurper is dead," she said.

"But his son rules in his place." Ser Jorah lifted his gaze, and his dark eyes met her own. "A dutiful son pays his father's debts. Even blood debts." aSoS, Daenerys I

 

So we have this belief in blood paying for blood, sons or family members paying off blood debts incurred with their the own life's blood or taking the lives of members of a family believed to have committed a crime to compensate for the crime. 

 

Now, on to Craster: when Sam suggests the NW take his son, Craster replies by pointing out that his son is his blood:

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Sam opened and closed his mouth. “I … I … I only meant … if you didn’t want him … his mouth to feed … with winter coming on, we … we could take him, and …” “
My son. My blood. You think I’d give him to you crows?
“I only thought …” You have no sons, you expose them, Gilly said as much, you leave them in the woods, that’s why you have only wives here, and daughters who grow up to be wives. aSoS, Sam III

Craster will not give his blood to the Night's Watch but he gives it to the Others. What’s more, his sons really are his blood, concentrated through and through because he marries his daughters. His blood is not diluted by marriage to women from other families. He is offering the Others his blood, his family's alone.

Ygritte says Craster bears a heavy curse but does not elaborate on the curse. Could this be the curse that Craster and his family are subject to? To pay for wrongs / murders committed by their ancestors with their own blood, their sons? We tend to see Craster as the bad guy, in isolation from his wives who we perceive as suffering under his yolk, but they are part of this sacrificial machinery too. The older women knowing a blood debt is being paid would explain why they go along with it.

What do you think? Is he paying off an ancient blood debt?

To whom is the blood debt owed?

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Craster being of Casterly was an idea proposed long, long ago. However, the problem with that is Casterly line died long long ago and possibly long AFTER the wall was built and the watch established. In all seriousness, if Craster is the scion of any Westerosi noble house, it is not the Casterlys who were gone ages ago, it is not the Starks whose main branch had just a handful of people left and no distant kin known in the watch, but Targaryens who are known for their incest, which Craster does, had not just one but two members in the watch, had both of it's members in not any other castle but Castle Black where Craster's mother came to show the baby to his father but was chased away and quite possibly Brynden was already the LC of (we don't know Craster's age but Brynden was LC in 239).

Whether Craster was a Targaryen's get or not, two Targaryen's were present in the Watch when he was conceived and when the mother was chased away.

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The Starks is the family most likely to have an ancient pact with the Others.  The Night’s King was a Stark.  Craster is a Stark.  It’s not a debt but an agreement with the Others.  Craster’s boys get turned into Others.  His bloodline is special because of its genetic compatibility with the Others.  The same reason why the Night’s Queen took the Stark Night’s King for her mate.  

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Lo

4 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Starks is the family most likely to have an ancient pact with the Others.  The Night’s King was a Stark.  Craster is a Stark.  It’s not a debt but an agreement with the Others.  Craster’s boys get turned into Others.  His bloodline is special because of its genetic compatibility with the Others.  The same reason why the Night’s Queen took the Stark Night’s King for her mate.  

Lol. Craster is not a Stark as obvious by him being an abomination breeding with the disgusting practice of incest. Night's King was indeed a Stark though, and he may very well have been named... Jon Snow, an evil name according to Ygritte, a member of the free folk, a people who know things the kneelers have forgotten.

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6 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Starks is the family most likely to have an ancient pact with the Others.  The Night’s King was a Stark.  Craster is a Stark.  It’s not a debt but an agreement with the Others.  Craster’s boys get turned into Others.  His bloodline is special because of its genetic compatibility with the Others.  The same reason why the Night’s Queen took the Stark Night’s King for her mate.  

This claim has already been put forward by many people multiple times, but there is never any evidence other than, perhaps, an implied dislike of the Stark family.

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29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This claim has already been put forward by many people multiple times, but there is never any evidence other than, perhaps, an implied dislike of the Stark family.

Worse is, there aren't any Starks in the watch around that time and not even that many Starks on the main branch either.

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1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Worse is, there aren't any Starks in the watch around that time and not even that many Starks on the main branch either.

With all these stupid theories rather than starting out with the question e.g. 'Who is Craster related to?' and looking into it using the text, they start out with the statement 'I hate the Starks' and work backwards until they get e.g. 'Craster is a Stark'.

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Whether Craster was a Targaryen's get or not, two Targaryen's were present in the Watch when he was conceived and when the mother was chased away.

Yes, that's often blended out in the quest for Craster's parentage.

 

53 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Starks is the family most likely to have an ancient pact with the Others.  The Night’s King was a Stark.  Craster is a Stark.  It’s not a debt but an agreement with the Others.  Craster’s boys get turned into Others.  His bloodline is special because of its genetic compatibility with the Others.  The same reason why the Night’s Queen took the Stark Night’s King for her mate.  

I was hoping this would not turn into a "Craster is a Stark" thread. The question is, could Craster be sacrificing his sons in payment for an ancient blood debt his ancestors incurred?

If so, it means he's compelled to make these offerings, rather than simply making a deal with the Others to keep his family safe from attack, for instance. It would also cast doubt on the theory of genetic compatibilty which readers tend to believe the Others require because keeping the bloodline pure to ensure that it's really his blood that is sacrificed to pay the debt is a different prerequisite. 

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Back to the OP, Gilly's baby wasn't given up for the Others, and I think an argument could be made that the wights that came to Whitetree when Sam, Gilly, and babe were there came on the command of the Others to claim the sacrifice.  The CotF or BR or both sent Cold Hands to save them, mainly to save Sam to open the Black Gate.  Either way he brought them to safety.

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9 minutes ago, Evolett said:

The question is, could Craster be sacrificing his sons in payment for an ancient blood debt his ancestors incurred?

If so, it means he's compelled to make these offerings, rather than simply making a deal with the Others to keep his family safe from attack, for instance.

Help me understand this, Evolett.  If there is a blood debt, would Craster as the only male left in his line be obligated to pay it then?  So perhaps the original blood required sons to given to the Others but somehow Craster avoided this and, so to speak, made a deal with the Devil to pay for his life with sons?  I like the idea but am not that strong on understanding a blood debt.

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53 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Help me understand this, Evolett.  If there is a blood debt, would Craster as the only male left in his line be obligated to pay it then?

Probably so, but it could also be that he's the only member of that bloodline unfortunate enough to live within range of the Others. 

 

55 minutes ago, LongRider said:

So perhaps the original blood required sons to given to the Others but somehow Craster avoided this and, so to speak, made a deal with the Devil to pay for his life with sons? 

From what I understand about blood debts and blood money, it's always stems from a social conflict, usually between families or clans. The matter can be settled immediately, as we see with the blood price Doran paid in the person of his son Quentyn. If it's not settled then the debt passes to future generations. So if this is a thing, then it's more likely that Craster's ancestors committed the crime and never finished paying up, leaving him in this position now. Basically an eye for an eye or a son for a son of the bloodline, however ancient the conflict might be. The family that has to pay the blood debt bears group responsibity and must give up a number of its members. I suppose how many would depend on the offence or how many of the rival family were killed.  
There is a difference to the blood feud which is charactarized by cycles of violence between families that can span generations (as in the Brackens and Blackwoods). 

 

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So, the sacrificing of sons of the Craster line, could be an ancient practice which was going on until he was killed.  Interesting, that Gilly's baby, whose mother desperately wanted to save the baby, was, one might say, born at the right time to live.   hmmm, wonder how this will affect him. 

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A lot is made of Craster sacrificing his sons, whilst overlooking that he also sacrificed his sheep. I'd even say that from his perspective the sheep were the greater sacrifice to make (useless mouths to feed and future male rivals vs valuable food supply).

 

The Others find the livestock an acceptable sacrifice, which argues against the boys having a special significance. I say the Others spared Crasters holdfast for longer than other wildling settlements only because it amused them to have a human sacrificing to them.

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49 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

One issue here is, why does Craster, son of a ranger who was probably not even from the North, has a blood debt to Others?

Who knows who his bygone ancestors really were? The LN took place eons ago. A large number of people may have been displaced, with families eventually divided by the Wall. Take the two Targs at the Wall who are old enough to have fathered Craster for instance. That's very ancient blood right there and old bloodlines must be the key, even to the genetic compatibility theory . Bloodraven's mother hailed from the south but their ancestors were from up north in all probability - the Warg King. Maester Aemon's background is also peppered with old FM blood. Somewhere there lies the truth :D

 

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Apologies, I didn’t read the whole thread b/c I came across more of the baseless and unsupported “Starks are bad, so bad and evul” and just scrolled all the way down for my reply. 
 

@Evolett, Craster is an abomination of a human being in most everyone’s book. Is there a blood debt so huge that he owes someone? Maybe. But his sacrificing his sons doesn’t have anything to do w/ that imo. 
He tells his wives/daughters (and the free folk know about it, as do some in the NW) that the sacrifice of their sons is not only necessary but essential to their survival, but I think it’s all a tale he made up. After all, he does sacrifice animals as well, as has never had a problem b/c of that. His sacrifice of his male offspring is, imo, a way for him to be rid of future competition/foes - either for the women or, one hopes, boys that will grow up and kill him. Just my 2p. 

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20 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Who knows who his bygone ancestors really were? The LN took place eons ago. A large number of people may have been displaced, with families eventually divided by the Wall. Take the two Targs at the Wall who are old enough to have fathered Craster for instance. That's very ancient blood right there and old bloodlines must be the key, even to the genetic compatibility theory . Bloodraven's mother hailed from the south but their ancestors were from up north in all probability - the Warg King. Maester Aemon's background is also peppered with old FM blood. Somewhere there lies the truth :D

 

Must add, I don't think that Craster is Maester Aemon's or Bloodraven's bastard. It is just that either of these two being his father is far more likely than a Stark being his father, incest not taken into consideration. With it taken into consideration, it can be thought of as a hint since GRRM likes to spread little hints everywhere, which could've been nice I guess, if they hadn't been overused. Because they are overused people come up with things like Benjen is Daario, Varys is a merling etc. 

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Craster is an abomination of a human being in most everyone’s book.

Even the Targaryen enthusiasts think he is bad and because of his incest no less. I think it's only ok when Targaryens do it b/c they are "above gods" and whatever.

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