The Original Ending of a Dance with Dragons

[BlackLightning]

Disclaimer: The premise of this thread is an offshoot of a couple of threads (how big will The Winds of Winter be, 500 pages to go, the Battle of Meereen, etc.) that had got me thinking after I had just finished re-reading A Dance with Dragons (again)

A Dance with Dragons is great and all, but the ending of that book feels off...unlike the previous four books.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I think that everyone at this point basically understands that the editors compelled GRRM to release A Dance with Dragons as is because the book was way too long, and he still had more to add/write. He wanted to put two big battles (almost certainly the Battles of Meereen and Winterfell) at the book but those chapters ended up getting pushed out into the next book.

That's fine and all...but even if you add those two battles (hypothetically, let's say that the story of those two battles equate to 10 chapters), every other POV (except for Jon and Dany) have this awkward cliffhanger ending that feels less like an ending and more like a hard break. So now, with the leftovers from Dance and the actual plotline of Winds, Winds is probably going to end up becoming largest book of the series as it is already outpacing both Dance and A Storm of Swords (which is the largest book in the series). That's probably what has been taking GRRM so long: being able to put the ending of book #5 and the entirety of book #6 all in the same book and make it tonally and thematically consistent is tough.

So basically, what POV chapters and/or storylines do you think were supposed to be put in A Dance with Dragons and what do you think the original ending of the story supposed to feel like? Do you anticipate any unique revelations about the writing process for both Dance and Winds?

 

Mods, please feel free to move this.

[Nevets]

On 2/24/2023 at 7:37 PM, BlackLightning said:

Disclaimer: The premise of this thread is an offshoot of a couple of threads (how big will The Winds of Winter be, 500 pages to go, the Battle of Meereen, etc.) that had got me thinking after I had just finished re-reading A Dance with Dragons (again)

A Dance with Dragons is great and all, but the ending of that book feels off...unlike the previous four books.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I think that everyone at this point basically understands that the editors compelled GRRM to release A Dance with Dragons as is because the book was way too long, and he still had more to add/write. He wanted to put two big battles (almost certainly the Battles of Meereen and Winterfell) at the book but those chapters ended up getting pushed out into the next book.

That's fine and all...but even if you add those two battles (hypothetically, let's say that the story of those two battles equate to 10 chapters), every other POV (except for Jon and Dany) have this awkward cliffhanger ending that feels less like an ending and more like a hard break. So now, with the leftovers from Dance and the actual plotline of Winds, Winds is probably going to end up becoming largest book of the series as it is already outpacing both Dance and A Storm of Swords (which is the largest book in the series). That's probably what has been taking GRRM so long: being able to put the ending of book #5 and the entirety of book #6 all in the same book and make it tonally and thematically consistent is tough.

So basically, what POV chapters and/or storylines do you think were supposed to be put in A Dance with Dragons and what do you think the original ending of the story supposed to feel like? Do you anticipate any unique revelations about the writing process for both Dance and Winds?

 

Mods, please feel free to move this.

I don't think anything other than the battles was intended for Dance.  Most of the endings seem OK to me.

Arya, Sansa, Davos, and Samwell have all reached turning points in their stories.  They are in a new place and/or taking on a new role.  One arc ends, and another begins.  Jaime and Brienne are in a cliffhanger, but whatever happens, they're turning down a new road as well.  It's not just a quick detour and back to the earlier story.  And whatever Bran and Cersei are up to, I don't think any additions to their stories was planned.

Given how long it has taken, I expect there were some serious issues with the writing process for this one.  A lot probably had to do with getting 100 or so chapters of story to fit into about 80.  And he mentioned changing the story of a character dead on the show but alive in the books.  That could have had knock on effects that took time to deal with.

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, Nevets said:

And he mentioned changing the story of a character dead on the show but alive in the books.  That could have had knock on effects that took time to deal with.

Remembering something about the change affecting other characters as well, so there is that.  I don't think this particular entry has been as easy thing to write at all.  

Dance was a difficult read.  Then again, so was Feast.  The splitting of stories was jarring, the flow was interrupted.  Not complaining, that was my perception of the difference.  There were pretty much 2 books of cliffhangers.  The "gift" chapters have not sated me in any way, shape or form, only made me crave real story.   I am hoping the division of characters was an anomaly and we are back to all the characters' POVs in TWOW.   Or at least the POVs that will continue or end.  

Despite Winds promising to be the biggest book to date I do wonder if there is enough space for our loquacious author to tell all he wants in this tomb.  After all, he had so much to say on Jon and Tyrion and Dany's behalves they nearly got an entire book dedicated to their adventures in Dance.  I hope Winds is better than that and he finds his ability to tell the short story again.  Winter is coming, perhaps there will be no more feasts?  

[kav2001c]

I think (esp with sample chapters) he split the book

Same way Storm of Swords had overlap and same way Feast of Crows & Dance with Dragons were split

Honestly part of me thinks he was too disorganized and that better editing would have benefitted the series greatly. Its not like they were cranking these novels out every year

 

[EggBlue]

I think the battles would have added a lot to the book  . Asha , Stannis , Theon , Tyrion , Victarion and Barristan may not end with cliffhangers, but they are definitely incomplete and even pointless to a point. that can easily be said about Quentyn , the constant discussions of lacking a point, and the dragons that never danced in a book called Dance with Dragons. with the battles, numerous POVs would have come together in one place and one of the most boring storylines, Meereen, would have come to a conclusion. which would have made the only two cliffhangers, Dany and Jon's , less frustrating and even fun because you wouldn't have to anticipate the conclusion to all the built up in two books.

[BlackLightning]

Apart from the battles, I feel like Arianne's storyline with travelling through the Stormlands and meeting Aegon and JonCon and Daenerys' storyline with the Dothraki (at least up to a point; maybe three more chapters) should have been included.

Both of their POV chapters are very much in line with the theme of dancing with dragons.

On 2/28/2023 at 9:59 PM, EggBlue said:

Asha, Stannis, Theon, Tyrion, Victarion and Barristan may not end with cliffhangers, but they are definitely incomplete and even pointless to a point.

As far as Stannis and the Greyjoy siblings are concerned, I feel like their stories ended a lot more conclusively than that of the Meereenese group. Granted, I do think that the Theon sample chapter should've been included (and placed after the Jon Snow chapter). But overall, I feel like they are in a good spot.

In my opinion, it's more appropriate to have the "Battle of Ice" take place in The Winds of Winter than in a book so named A Dance with Dragons. Although you can resolve the Battle of Ice with less chapters than you could with the Battle of Fire, it's probably for the best that the Battle of Ice was moved out. The only reason why it would be good for the Battle of Ice to be placed in A Dance with Dragons is if Stannis ended up surviving the battle and seized control of Winterfell.

On 2/28/2023 at 9:59 PM, EggBlue said:

that can easily be said about Quentyn , the constant discussions of lacking a point, and the dragons that never danced in a book called Dance with Dragons.

Technically, the dragons did dance.

I presume that they were supposed to continue dancing (and maybe gain riders) while the Battle of Meereen raged.

 

I think people would have been a lot kinder about the whole Qunetyn thing if the Battle of Meereen was fought and finished.

I agree though; the Battle of Meereen should've been included. Granted, I'm not sure that the Meereenese story was set to conclude there. The only way I see the Meereen story concluding is when Daenerys feels comfortable leaving the city.

 

[BlackLightning]

Do we all think that Bran was going to play a role in the Battle of Winterfell?

On 2/28/2023 at 5:01 PM, Curled Finger said:

Winter is coming, perhaps there will be no more feasts?  

Yeah I do think that in the coming books, there won't be too much for people to eat.

Copious descriptions of all different types of food will gave way to characters being overcome with joy to eat old, raw turnips.

But I think GRRM did a lot of internal character development in these books. They are light on action and plot movement but heavy on worldbuilding and character.

On 2/28/2023 at 1:42 AM, Nevets said:

A lot probably had to do with getting 100 or so chapters of story to fit into about 80. 

At this point, he's probably given up on that. We'll probably get a 100 chapters (not including the prologue and epilogue) in this book.

[EggBlue]

13 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Do we all think that Bran was going to play a role in the Battle of Winterfell?

yep.. 

[Corvo the Crow]

Stannis pissing with his right hand and slaying Bastard of Bolton with his left at the gates of Winterfell to the cheer of Northman and Southron alike, celebration fires fueled with Bolton stumps and Weirwoods given a good iron rich refreshment of Ironborn blood.

[Morte]

13 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Apart from the battles, I feel like Arianne's storyline with travelling through the Stormlands and meeting Aegon and JonCon and Daenerys' storyline with the Dothraki (at least up to a point; maybe three more chapters) should have been included.

Both of their POV chapters are very much in line with the theme of dancing with dragons.

I agree that the POVs of JonCon (and Tyrion as well as Quentyn) are in line with the theme of the book, they are indeed dancing with the dragons, and Quentyn even with both human and animal, but feel incomplete because of the ending.

But I especially agree with the bolded part, because every time I read Daenerys' last chapter, I get the notion that we have a time-asynchrony again, as if not as many days have passed in Daenerys' POV, as have in Meereen and Westeros, because she is still alive and strong enough to walk and stand even without clean water to drink and a serious diarrhoea, so imho she can't be out there for longer then a few days, maximum a week. If that is the case, it would have been better if this would have been solved in the same book, and I very much think that it would come naturally with the two battles and Arianne meeting Aegon included in ADwD.

[BlackLightning]

On 3/3/2023 at 7:40 AM, Morte said:

But I especially agree with the bolded part, because every time I read Daenerys' last chapter, I get the notion that we have a time-asynchrony again, as if not as many days have passed in Daenerys' POV, as have in Meereen and Westeros, because she is still alive and strong enough to walk and stand even without clean water to drink and a serious diarrhoea, so imho she can't be out there for longer then a few days, maximum a week. If that is the case, it would have been better if this would have been solved in the same book, and I very much think that it would come naturally with the two battles and Arianne meeting Aegon included in ADwD.

Oh yeah definitely

Chronologically, Daenerys' last chapter should take place at the same time (if not before) The Queensguard POV chapter

With that logic, Daenerys can make back to Meereen in time for the Volantene fleet.

Edited March 7, 2023 by BlackLightning

[Curled Finger]

I hope to see a lot more of Bran than simply helping out at Winterfell.  There are so many possibilities for his character at these many junctions, as in Mereen.  Beyond solving left over riddles and unanswered questions Winds should propel all these characters forward, resolving storylines and getting to the real points here.  There should be an end in sight for everyone.  Winds should separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak in narrowing the many storylines down to a few that are left to matter.  There was much hubub for a while about eliminating POVs but not much since.  Realistically, if there are fewer locations to report on fewer POVs will be required to tell the tale.  That doesn't have to be bad thing and could make A Dream of Spring a manageable thing.  

[Alester Florent]

On 3/2/2023 at 11:19 PM, BlackLightning said:

Copious descriptions of all different types of food will gave way to characters being overcome with joy to eat old, raw turnips.

You don't know what's good for you. Who needs tomatoes when you can have a nice turnip?

[BlackLightning]

On 3/21/2023 at 11:35 AM, Alester Florent said:

You don't know what's good for you. Who needs tomatoes when you can have a nice turnip?

lmao

Exactly. I think a lot of casual conversations in the last two books (especially the very last one) will be about people reminiscing, arguing, complaining and fighting about food instead of eating.