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Is F/Aegon headed for a Tragic End?


Craving Peaches
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Yes

Aegon, regardless of whether he is the real deal or not, is completely unprepared to rule Westeros. Especially now.

What's worse is that the people who are propping him up are either just as clueless as he is, or they are completely twisted.

 

Aegon does share too many similarities with Joffrey but, basically, I see Aegon as a more inorganic, incompetent version of Robb...and Robb was a military genius.

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34 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Yes

Aegon, regardless of whether he is the real deal or not, is completely unprepared to rule Westeros. Especially now.

What's worse is that the people who are propping him up are either just as clueless as he is, or they are completely twisted.

 

Aegon does share too many similarities with Joffrey but, basically, I see Aegon as a more inorganic, incompetent version of Robb...and Robb was a military genius.

We haven’t seen him rule at all. All we have to go on is Varys telling a dulling man that Aegon has been schooled his whole life to be King. Meaning he’d be completely prepared and competent. By the same token, we see him throw a tantrum when he loses a game. 

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I don't see anything great about Aegon.  He seems a callow, inexperienced youngster.  And I don't recall seeing him lead anything much.  Arya probably has as much education and deprivation as he does, and some leadership experience (Gendry, et al), and I wouldn't give her a kingdom.

This kid might as well be wearing a redshirt and have a bulls eye for his sigil for all the likelihood he has of surviving long.  I think he's a red herring and pretty much doomed.

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6 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

This was Jon at fourteen and before his character development.

Furthermore, the circumstances were hardly comparable. Tyrion was definitely being manipulative by design, but all he did to fAegon was imply that Dany might not be as submissive as he would like and that he might not be as perfect as he claims to be, a fairly minor attack on his worldview. On the other hand, he shattered Jon's naïve worldview in the cruelest manner imaginable, telling him about how low his new brothers would be and mocking his bastardry.

Also, this is fAegon now, who will soon be king on the Iron Throne. That seems to be a big problem, no?

yes , that was Jon at 14(though the general consensus in the book is that he's wiser than his age) before his character development. this was Aegon at 18 before his character development.
 I don't see much difference in that regard. the situations are indeed comparable.
 you shouldn't look at it as "oh , well he suggested that Dany might not be submissive" ... NO . as much as Jon's "brothers" and his bastardy is a huge deal for Jon, Aegon's sole purpose in life is important to him. Tyrion didn't just point out that his plans may not succeed. he shattered the boy's bubble completely. Tyrion questioned his identity which is honestly a big deal . not because of inheritance stuff but because of how would you feel if someone comes along and questions everything you know about yourself . then he questioned Dany's willingness to help him which from his answer we know he expects her help because they are kin (his only kin from Targ side at that) , not that it is her duty or that he'd be an amazing king . then T questions his abilities and why anyone should join his cause. then he questions Jon Con (basically his dad) and everyone else's loyalty and questions the success of a purpose he was preparing for his whole life. he also tells him of his dead father's overboldness and what not.  then he tells him he needs to prove himself to the nobles which like it or not works exactly the way Aegon approached it . yeah , it would have been different if Westeros was in a time of peace but it is not at the point Aegon decides to attack. this was surely a well-aimed, well-executed manipulation on Tyrion's part with heavy implications for Aegon.

would this naivety and arrogance be a problem when Aegon becomes king? yes, surely. but he's not Joffrey and from what we've seen he tries to be better. 

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As far as his ‘blow up’…and in a book filled with violence, this seems a tad overblown…think of it as another example if that which constitutes fAegon’s almost entire life: learning. 
 

I won’t list all the things he has learned, practically and academically, over the course of his young life. I will just mention that he had already learned what it is to be hunted and hated…by outsiders. So he already knew about distrusting people he did not know, but life on the boat has also been safe for him from the inside. No one on the boat would try and trick him, no one would lie to him, that he knows of. It’s a very inside vs. outside compartmentalization, probably necessary for his sanity growing up, and to allow so much learning. Hugor has been brought on board and accepted as a member of the crew and, as with everyone on the boat, is presumably there to teach YG something. YG would know this. 
 

Now there are schools of learning that use open deception, but none so far as I know that do it without warning the learner, because it’s at exact cross purposes with the kind of mindset needed to really learn. Life, importantly, can quickly teach you that those you trust can lie to you and manipulate you, that there is no reliable inside vs. outside, but first that’s almost always a traumatic experience, and second because of his unique situation, that is one of the (seemingly few) things fAegon was never taught. He thought he was supposed to be open to Tyrion because that’s his role on the Shy Maid. 
 

So it would have been something he was unprepared for, completely, in the truest sense of the word. It would have challenged a fundament of his life, it would have been…on a very small scale, to be sure, but nevertheless impactful…painful. And that, imo, is what he reacted to. Not losing; we know he’s lost before without anything happening. What Tyrion was doing, out of boredom or malice or because he saw a gap in his learning, or with Dance Tyrion, likely some imprecise combination of all three…was shaking his faith in the one way he felt safe. 
 

But he learns. After that his guard is up around Tyrion, and eventually he starts distrusting some of the advice of JC et al, an important development. But at the same time he values Tyrion and prioritized saving his life, and graciously thanks him for saving his. So he learns, but he does not become closed. From an educational point of view, that’s great. You can read the tantrum as somehow revealing the fatal flaw, but I doubt GRRM’s mind works that sophomorically and I doubt he wastes so much time impressing us with all of fAegon’s abilities and virtues if the cyvasse game is the only really important moment for his future. 
 

To me the better reading of that is to arrest our attention to what lesson Tyrion just taught him, and it had nothing…in the literal sense…to do with where you put what pieces on the board when. It was, in short, trust no one completely, regardless of ‘inside or outside’, everyone can have other agendas. We’ve seen other characters learn that lesson and do a lot more than knock over a cyvasse table. 

Edited by James Arryn
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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

would this naivety and arrogance be a problem when Aegon becomes king? yes, surely. but he's not Joffrey and from what we've seen he tries to be better. 

I respectfully disagree that the situations were comparable, as Tyrion's manipulations expressly should not have worked against fAegon if he had half the wisdom or maturity that was claimed. His bitterness diminishes rather than strengthens Tyrion's wit, as we've seen throughout ADwD. But I digress. We can definitely agree on this. :)

And to be clear, the answer in my original post that it wouldn't be tragic was about the loss of fAegon as a claimant, specifically. It would indeed be tragic if he died! I don't think he deserves to die at all. But much more innocent people have and will continue to perish in this series. :crying:

I think it will crush Dany when she inevitably finds out that he isn't actually her kin, which might lead her to be wary of Jon at first, adding to the tragedy for our main (or closest to it) characters.

Edited by Many-Faced Votary
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15 hours ago, Nevets said:

I don't see anything great about Aegon.  He seems a callow, inexperienced youngster.  And I don't recall seeing him lead anything much.  Arya probably has as much education and deprivation as he does, and some leadership experience (Gendry, et al), and I wouldn't give her a kingdom.

This kid might as well be wearing a redshirt and have a bulls eye for his sigil for all the likelihood he has of surviving long.  I think he's a red herring and pretty much doomed.

I agree.

In the Western world, we mandate it so that our children are put through 12+ years of a pretty well-rounded education. It's not perfect but it's pretty comprehensive. When they finish their education, why don't we instantly give them jobs? Why must they still continue to prove themselves.

I think GRRM is trying to use this whole Aegon plotline to make and prove a point about good kings/leaders and the education system by in large. Bran, by the end of the day, will be the perfect candidate for kingship and GRRM has to show us why. Aegon may be a means to that end.

19 hours ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

We haven’t seen him rule at all. All we have to go on is Varys telling a dulling man that Aegon has been schooled his whole life to be King. Meaning he’d be completely prepared and competent. By the same token, we see him throw a tantrum when he loses a game. 

Forget the Others.

Do you seriously believe that he is seriously prepared to contend with not only widespread famine but one of the absolute worst winters that the Seven Kingdoms will experience?

 

Secondly, why do you trust Varys so much?

Edited by BlackLightning
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2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I agree.

In the Western world, we mandate it so that our children are put through 12+ years of a pretty well-rounded education. It's not perfect but it's pretty comprehensive. When they finish their education, why don't we instantly give them jobs? Why must they still continue to prove themselves.

I think GRRM is trying to use this whole Aegon plotline to make and prove a point about good kings/leaders and the education system by in large. Bran, by the end of the day, will be the perfect candidate for kingship and GRRM has to show us why. Aegon may be a means to that end.

Forget the Others.

Do you seriously believe that he is seriously prepared to contend with not only widespread famine but one of the absolute worst winters that the Seven Kingdoms will experience?

 

Secondly, why do you trust Varys so much?

He could be, we don’t know.

and in the context of the chapter, I do. I don’t see why Varys would lie to a dying man.

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2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I agree.

In the Western world, we mandate it so that our children are put through 12+ years of a pretty well-rounded education. It's not perfect but it's pretty comprehensive. When they finish their education, why don't we instantly give them jobs? Why must they still continue to prove themselves.

I think GRRM is trying to use this whole Aegon plotline to make and prove a point about good kings/leaders and the education system by in large. Bran, by the end of the day, will be the perfect candidate for kingship and GRRM has to show us why. Aegon may be a means to that end.

Why would Bran be a perfect candidate? Right now, he is nowhere near an environment conductive for learning how to be a ruler.

I'd rather have Mace Tyrell be next king of Seven Kingdoms.

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1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

Why would Bran be a perfect candidate? Right now, he is nowhere near an environment conductive for learning how to be a ruler.

I'd rather have Mace Tyrell be next king of Seven Kingdoms.

I'd rarher have Ser Pounce be the next king. At least he's in an environment conducive etc.

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7 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

To me (f?)Aegon is "incarnation" of Pyrrhus of Epirus. Or he will gain some victories. But in the end he will fail bc he will not gain enough support to secure his crown. After all there are many people who do not like either Dorne or Golden Company.

or Targaryens . poor fellow 

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The plot will give Aegon a chance to step aside for the rightful heir, Daenerys.  I doubt George will let him remain ignorant of his true beginnings. He is a Blackfyre.  Which gives him some claim to the throne but it is not as good as Daenerys' claim.  Rhaegar died on the Trident while Aerys was still the king.  Aerys named Prince Viserys as his heir.  She is Viserys' heir.  Aegon might contest that and refuse to step aside.  What hurt comes his way will be deserved. 

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3 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The plot will give Aegon a chance to step aside for the rightful heir, Daenerys.  I doubt George will let him remain ignorant of his true beginnings. He is a Blackfyre.  Which gives him some claim to the throne but it is not as good as Daenerys' claim.  Rhaegar died on the Trident while Aerys was still the king.  Aerys named Prince Viserys as his heir.  She is Viserys' heir.  Aegon might contest that and refuse to step aside.  What hurt comes his way will be deserved. 

If his father was a Blackfyre, he has more claim than Daenerys ever had. 

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4 hours ago, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

The plot will give Aegon a chance to step aside for the rightful heir, Daenerys.  I doubt George will let him remain ignorant of his true beginnings. He is a Blackfyre.  Which gives him some claim to the throne but it is not as good as Daenerys' claim.  Rhaegar died on the Trident while Aerys was still the king.  Aerys named Prince Viserys as his heir.  She is Viserys' heir.  Aegon might contest that and refuse to step aside.  What hurt comes his way will be deserved. 

Viserys never named Dany his heir, and the legal precedent is that women can't be queen regnant.

Now, of course, Dany doesn't accept this, because if she did, she would have to accept that Robert's claim to the throne was better than hers. But if we're boiling down claims on this basis, then it remains the case.

Even if Aegon is a Blackfyre, which remains a theory not a fact, firstly, I suspect he would refuse to accept that as true. He's been raised as a Targaryen and being told out of the blue "oh yeah, everything you know about yourself is total BS" is unlikely to land with someone who believes himself the rightful king.

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On 2/25/2023 at 5:18 PM, Many-Faced Votary said:

The other thing is, fAegon is entirely manufactured. He is not a hero; Varys tried to shape him into one artificially. That simply cannot be done. We the reader are supposed to realize that he's describing Dany in the ADwD Epilogue; and we should also immediately perceive the problem of trying to say that someone who has had a royal retinue, guard, tutors, etc., and wanted for nothing materially his entire life, knows what it is to be hungry, hunted, and afraid.

Dany considers queenship a duty to her people, to protect them, and to justice; it is integral to her character. fAegon acts like any other claimant who simply wants power, contrary to what Varys says. Dany has actually been hungry, hunted, and afraid. Dany earned her status through great difficulties and trying to do good for people.

I agree with a lot of the sentiment here  about Aegon, but I wasn’t reminded of Dany by Varys’s monologue, I was reminded of Jon.

"I know what I swore." Jon said the words. "I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?"

"They were. As the lord commander knows."

"Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?" Jon waited for an answer. None came. "I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?"

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20 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Viserys never named Dany his heir, and the legal precedent is that women can't be queen regnant.

I not sure this is true about her being named heir.

In Dany’s first chapter she is called the Princess of Dragonstone, the heir’s traditional title.

"King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. His sister, Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone. His honorable host, Illyrio Mopatis, Magister of the Free City of Pentos."

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