Team Black honestly seems pathetic

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

They had double the amount of dragons, and riders, yet they consistently get bodied. If the Greens had 1 more dragon and rider, they probably would’ve won.

[Craving Peaches]

Yeah.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

40 minutes ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

They had double the amount of dragons, and riders, yet they consistently get bodied. If the Greens had 1 more dragon and rider, they probably would’ve won.

The greens needed far more than just another dragon. The North and Vale were on their side and they barely entered the war until late in the game. Apart from the Westerlands, every other region was deeply divided between the two factions.

But you’re right in a way, the biggest obstacles to the black cause was from their own side. But that just shows how the greens were never going to win.

[Back in Black-Snow]

7 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The greens needed far more than just another dragon. The North and Vale were on their side and they barely entered the war until late in the game. Apart from the Westerlands, every other region was deeply divided between the two factions.

But you’re right in a way, the biggest obstacles to the black cause was from their own side. But that just shows how the greens were never going to win.

This. But ultimately, and tragically, neither side really won the war.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

Just now, Back in Black-Snow said:

This. But ultimately, and tragically, neither side really won the war.

True. But the Blacks were so incompetent that had the Greens had more help, I’d imagine they’d have won. Imagine if Helaena was a Dragonrider in the war, or the Dragonseeds switched to the Greens instead of going independent?

[Back in Black-Snow]

Just now, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

True. But the Blacks were so incompetent that had the Greens had more help, I’d imagine they’d have won. Imagine if Helaena was a Dragonrider in the war, or the Dragonseeds switched to the Greens instead of going independent?

But I dare not imagine. Because that is not what was written. I prefer to stick to what we have and dare not venture into what-might-have-beens.

[Craving Peaches]

I actually think the writing is a bit lackluster here in terms of the whole set up. I mean you have the odds clearly stacked in favour of one faction so then they have to act kind of stupid to give the other faction a chance. But then the other faction is also acting kind of stupid so...

[Alester Florent]

The Blacks made a number of unforced errors but they also got extremely unlucky on a number of occasions:

• Jace's death at the Gullet
• An apparently bedridden Aegon managing to escape King's Landing during the capture
• The Two Betrayers electing to switch teams to the side that was losing
• The storming of the Dragonpit, the only time infantry have ever managed to kill any uninjured dragons at all in reliably recorded history, and somehow taking out five
• An injured Sunfyre flying to Dragonstone unprompted and taking out an apparently healthy dragon without being mortally wounded
• The betrayal of Alfred Broome

Even with all that, they still won the war in the field, because ultimately Rhaenyra commanded more loyalty among the people who mattered.

[Back in Black-Snow]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I actually think the writing is a bit lackluster here in terms of the whole set up. I mean you have the odds clearly stacked in favour of one faction so then they have to act kind of stupid to give the other faction a chance. But then the other faction is also acting kind of stupid so...

But that is what GRRM gave us. Perhaps we will get a slightly different take in Winds and the second part of Fire and Blood. Perhaps a clue in the next Dunk and Egg story?

I don't think he will pull it off before he dies, but if he could complete the Dunk and Egg stories, Fire and Blood, AND ASOIF!?!?

edit: excuse the lack of formatting.

[Alester Florent]

6 minutes ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

But that is what GRRM gave us. Perhaps we will get a slightly different take in Winds and the second part of Fire and Blood. Perhaps a clue in the next Dunk and Egg story?

I don't see how we could get a serious revision of the story per se, because they've already been covered in FaB extensively and have remained consistent since TPatQ despite the addition of more detail. And who's around to give us the relevant information even in Dunk and Egg's day? Those stories are set two or three generations after the Dance. Bloodraven wasn't around to see it and convey information to the present. And it's hard to see what a change in the operational history of the Dance would really affect in the "present" ASoIaF story.

What we might see, though, is confirmation that the maesters (and/or the Faith) intervened magically in some way or other to neutralise Rhaenyra's dragons, and possibly the dragons more generally, in a way which wasn't noticed at the time and wasn't picked up in the official histories. We've already got a clue as to that, but that's in need of fleshing out.

6 minutes ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

I don't think he will pull it off before he dies, but if he could complete the Dunk and Egg stories, Fire and Blood, AND ASOIF!?!?

While I don't think he's likely to drop dead any time soon, it's fair to acknowledge he won't live forever and at his current pace it seems unlikely he'll even get ASoIaF finished. If he could get back to anything like the pace with which he turned out novels during the 90s or even the 2000s then sure. As far as the main series goes though he seems to have got stuck with a bad case of writer's block for most of the last 15 years, and the side projects seem to have tailed off a little too, with no D&E since ADwD, FaB being co-written, etc.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Adelstein said:

What we might see, though, is confirmation that the maesters (and/or the Faith) intervened magically in some way or other to neutralise Rhaenyra's dragons, and possibly the dragons more generally, in a way which wasn't noticed at the time and wasn't picked up in the official histories. We've already got a clue as to that, but that's in need of fleshing out.

If this is done I do hope it is presented in a nuanced way and not 'The evil religious people and evil maesters were part of some horrible conspiracy to kill the poor, sweet dragons.'

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I actually think the writing is a bit lackluster here in terms of the whole set up. I mean you have the odds clearly stacked in favour of one faction so then they have to act kind of stupid to give the other faction a chance. But then the other faction is also acting kind of stupid so...

It's the case of main books as well. GRRM doesn't try to fit the narrative into the state of the world but instead he breaks the world apart to force the story in a certain direction, which I must tell feels quite cheap. Time to travel distances become inconsistent, armies certain to win lose for no reason, character certain to die outlives all, or if they somehow die return to life, character who has lost all his forces suddenly get troops from out of nowhere. 

By rights Tyrion should've died more times than Berric now, instead he dons mismatched armor and slays knights who practiced their entire lives and are twice his size. Roose holding the high ground should've been able to fend off Tywin's forces, or even pressed on his advantage(he caught them off guard in the first place) Robb should've kicked the crap out of Tywin, Stannis should've prevailed against Lannisters. A Stannis who has lost after the Blackwater not get back up to his feet with northern troops out of nowhere. I'd say doing so with sellswords is one thing and acceptable, Northman literally spawning from rocks is a whole different thing and not acceptable, especially since we already know that Robb had hill clansmen in his army, but then I think if he is able to find money for Sellswords especially after losing horribly, then he should've been able to find such money in the first place and started with thousands of sellswords instead of a few hundred at most.

 

[Craving Peaches]

21 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

By rights Tyrion should've died more times than Berric now, instead he dons mismatched armor and slays knights who practiced their entire lives and are twice his size

Not to mention his Yoda from Episode 2 style acrobatics. But then next chapter legs cramping when he walks or has to go up a few stairs.

23 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

but then I think if he is able to find money for Sellswords especially after losing horribly, then he should've been able to find such money in the first place and started with thousands of sellswords instead of a few hundred at most.

And if he has money then there's no need for Salla to leave.

[Curled Finger]

50 minutes ago, Adelstein said:

I don't see how we could get a serious revision of the story per se, because they've already been covered in FaB extensively and have remained consistent since TPatQ despite the addition of more detail. And who's around to give us the relevant information even in Dunk and Egg's day? Those stories are set two or three generations after the Dance. Bloodraven wasn't around to see it and convey information to the present. And it's hard to see what a change in the operational history of the Dance would really affect in the "present" ASoIaF story.

 

No, not revision to the story, but perhaps some context for the stupid war in the 1st place as is hinted at in HOTD.  I hate this prophecy thing but I admit it does lend a little credence to some of the Targaryen lunacy and why Rhaenyra was so bloody determined to have her crown beyond the simple rightness of it.  I can't see how Martin can fit this in, but wizard that he is, I trust that if this is indeed part of the narrative he will.  Sure would make the Targaryen Prince That Was Promised more than bad grammar in the overall story with The Others.  

In this vein, Bloodraven, perhaps Egg, could have some scrap of information either about The Others or The Prince that does make some historical sense and narrative continuity all the way down to Rhaegar, The Ghost of High Heart.  Gads, maybe Bran or Dany or Jon.  It would not be a terrible thing to actually tie it all together in a way that makes it all make sense.  

[Floki of the Ironborn]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I actually think the writing is a bit lackluster here in terms of the whole set up. I mean you have the odds clearly stacked in favour of one faction so then they have to act kind of stupid to give the other faction a chance. But then the other faction is also acting kind of stupid so...

Much like several key moments in actual human history, heh.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Much like several key moments in actual human history, heh.

I don't know. I mean fair enough if the side with all the advantages was acting stupid so their opponents took advantage, but the opponents were also acting stupid so in theory it would cancel out leaving the side with the most resources to win again, unless they were magnitudes more stupid then their opponents.

[Many-Faced Votary]

4 hours ago, Adelstein said:

• The storming of the Dragonpit, the only time infantry have ever managed to kill any uninjured dragons at all in reliably recorded history, and somehow taking out five

By far the worst writing with the least amount of narrative or logical sense in the entire ASoIaF universe. Mr. Martin just needed this to happen to cause the extinction of the dragons, so it did.

[Alester Florent]

29 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

By far the worst writing with the least amount of narrative or logical sense in the entire ASoIaF universe. Mr. Martin just needed this to happen to cause the extinction of the dragons, so it did.

I believe there's a theory doing the rounds that there was something supernatural going on there, particularly in the death of Syrax. The dragons within the pit being killed, as they lacked room to manoeuvre and in some cases were chained, and then Dreamfyre bringing the roof down, those are just about plausible, but Syrax's death is unexplained.

There's also that remark from Marwyn implying the maesters were responsible for killing the dragons initially, which although it could refer to the stunted dragons hatched after the Dance (not to mention the grown dragons who died during Aegon III's reign - Silverwing and Morning, and presumably Sheepstealer and the Cannibal too), could also refer to assistance given by the maesters during the attack on the Dragonpit.

6 hours ago, Lord Edmure of Riverrun said:

They had double the amount of dragons, and riders, yet they consistently get bodied. If the Greens had 1 more dragon and rider, they probably would’ve won.

Coming back to this, I'm not sure their losses are anything like consistent. The early war swings back and forth but from the Lakeshore onwards there's a long and consistent run of Black success which should have ended the war and probably would have if not for the two betrayers. Even after this, the Blacks fairly easily mop up the Greens in the field with very few, if any, overt Green victories coming after Tumbleton I.

Unfortunately, at this point the people also kick Rhaenyra out of King's Landing, and at the same time her castellan at Dragonstone betrays her so when she retreats home she ends up fed to Sunfyre. If she had managed to hold King's Landing for a few more weeks, or if she had made it safely to Dragonstone, the war would have been fairly comfortably won for her, as after her death the Black troops already in the field just roll over the remaining Green field armies even before the arrival of their reinforcements.

The Blacks do screw up, but I'll come back to my earlier point that what costs the Blacks more than anything really is bad luck. Rook's Rest (I) is really the only time the Greens outplay the Blacks in a major battle (and this before the recruitment of the dragonseeds): the rest of their significant victories are largely lucked into.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

47 minutes ago, Adelstein said:

I believe there's a theory doing the rounds that there was something supernatural going on there, particularly in the death of Syrax. The dragons within the pit being killed, as they lacked room to manoeuvre and in some cases were chained, and then Dreamfyre bringing the roof down, those are just about plausible, but Syrax's death is unexplained.

There's also that remark from Marwyn implying the maesters were responsible for killing the dragons initially, which although it could refer to the stunted dragons hatched after the Dance (not to mention the grown dragons who died during Aegon III's reign - Silverwing and Morning, and presumably Sheepstealer and the Cannibal too), could also refer to assistance given by the maesters during the attack on the Dragonpit.

Coming back to this, I'm not sure their losses are anything like consistent. The early war swings back and forth but from the Lakeshore onwards there's a long and consistent run of Black success which should have ended the war and probably would have if not for the two betrayers. Even after this, the Blacks fairly easily mop up the Greens in the field with very few, if any, overt Green victories coming after Tumbleton I.

Unfortunately, at this point the people also kick Rhaenyra out of King's Landing, and at the same time her castellan at Dragonstone betrays her so when she retreats home she ends up fed to Sunfyre. If she had managed to hold King's Landing for a few more weeks, or if she had made it safely to Dragonstone, the war would have been fairly comfortably won for her, as after her death the Black troops already in the field just roll over the remaining Green field armies even before the arrival of their reinforcements.

The Blacks do screw up, but I'll come back to my earlier point that what costs the Blacks more than anything really is bad luck. Rook's Rest (I) is really the only time the Greens outplay the Blacks in a major battle (and this before the recruitment of the dragonseeds): the rest of their significant victories are largely lucked into.

Their only competent dragonrider was Daemon and he dies killing Aemond. If Daeron didn’t get killed at the Second Battle of Tumbleton, I could see the Greens winning.