How Dumb are the Valemen?

[Corvo the Crow]

Petyr Baelish comes along with a younger, far more beautiful than the already eye raisingly beautiful copy of Catelyn, the sister of their Lady Regent(who she'll also look like), feels no need to hide her except for painting her red doors hair black and no one thinks twice, no one is suspcious (perhaps Myranda).

She talks with everyone in that cool accent of hers that will mark her for a lady of the North she is, no one is able to discern the difference with more southernly accents.

Quote

 

Another of the outlaws stepped forward, a younger man in a greasy sheepskin jerkin. In his hand was Oathkeeper. "This says it is." His voice was frosted with the accents of the north. He slid the sword from its scabbard and placed it in front of Lady Stoneheart. In the light from the firepit the red and black ripples in the blade almost seem to move, but the woman in grey had eyes only for the pommel: a golden lion's head, with ruby eyes that shone like two red stars.

 

 

 

 

And yet some mad mouse comes and not only does he notices it as soon as he meets despite probably not having seen Catelyn or Lysa up close ever, but also mocks them to their face showing how pitiful their ruse is.

TWOW spoiler below

Spoiler

"Perhaps you will try the melee instead?" Alayne suggested. The melee was an afterthought, a sop for all the brothers, uncles, fathers, and friends who had accompanied the competitors to the Gates of the Moon to see them win their silver wings, but there would be prizes for the champions, and a chance to win ransoms.

"A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that's not likely, is it?"

"I suppose not. But now you must excuse us, ser, we need to find my lord father. "

 

So the question arises, Just how dumb are the Valemen? Are they the Ironborn of the east?

[frenin]

How many Vale lords have seen Cat?

It's like asking why the northmen don't know Arya from Jeyne Poole.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

How many Vale lords have seen Cat?

It's like asking why the northmen don't know Arya from Jeyne Poole.

 

Not the same thing. They haven't seen Arya so they don't know whether she looks exactly like Ned or not, whereas for the Sansa, those who have been present has seen Catelyn, who looks exactly like Sansa, recently. Those who weren't would've seen her numerous times over the years, those who haven't even seen Catelyn over the course of those many years have at least seen Lysa. It doesn't end with whether seeing her or not either, Sansa is of the North and we are told of the Northern accent. At the very least her northern accent would've been a giveaway as to not being raised by Septas in the Vale.

[King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd]

I’m not sure about dumb but I hear their women are uglier than the sheep.

[frenin]

47 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not the same thing.

Very much the same thing.

 

48 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

those who have been present has seen Catelyn,

15 years ago.

 

48 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

who looks exactly like Sansa

They had not seen neither kid Sansa nor kid Cat.

Nor have they seen Cat with dyed hair, which is pretty much th reason of the disguise.

 

49 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Those who weren't would've seen her numerous times over the years

How come?

 

50 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

those who haven't even seen Catelyn over the course of those many years have at least seen Lysa.

Who currently only resembles her sister and niece on the colour of their hair.

 

50 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Sansa is of the North and we are told of the Northern accent. At the very least her northern accent would've been a giveaway as to not being raised by Septas in the Vale.

Does Sansa speak with that accent?

 

 

[Nevets]

We don't know how strong her accent is.  Her mother was a Southerner, so her speech could be closer to that.  We also don't know what if any accent the Vale has.  It's close to the North and they're both pretty isolated.  Going off accent is pretty thin.

Without her red hair, she may not look as much like Catelyn or Lysa as you think.  And even if they are suspicious, they can't be sure.

And what would they do and why?  Those loyal to Baelish won't say anything because he would get in trouble.  His opponents may have residual loyalty to the Tullys and Starks, and don't want Sansa in trouble.  And I doubt anybody is inclined to stick their neck out by saying anything, especially without proof.

I'm guessing Myranda Royce and her father know.  Yohn may know.  I wouldn't be surprised if the reason Anya Waynwood is considering marrying her ward to Alayne is because she suspects who she really is.

When it's revealed who she is, there will be some who are shocked, absolutely shocked!  Like the cop in Casablanca. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

54 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not the same thing. They haven't seen Arya so they don't know whether she looks exactly like Ned or not

You’re telling me that none of the Northern lords ever went to Winterfell during Arya’s lifetime?

[Corvo the Crow]

4 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

You’re telling me that none of the Northern lords ever went to Winterfell during Arya’s lifetime?

I am telling Arya was 9 at the start of the series. She may or may not have looked like Ned the last time a Northern lord saw her. Lords may or may not have paid any attention to her etc. Karstarks last visit was when Alys was 6-7 for example, Arya would be 2 years old at that time. The lords that lived near and are known to have visited frequently and therefore would’ve seen her like Cerwyns are mostly gone.

And again, I am saying growing up to not look like your parents/relatives is entirely different than looking exactly like your parents/relatives. 

[Corvo the Crow]

18 minutes ago, Nevets said:

We don't know how strong her accent is.  Her mother was a Southerner, so her speech could be closer to that.  We also don't know what if any accent the Vale has.  It's close to the North and they're both pretty isolated.  Going off accent is pretty thin.

Her father was a Northerner so as the entire staff of Winterfell save perhaps a Septon and Septa Mordane who may or may not be from WhiteHarbor.

Being Isolated would not mean their accents would be close to eachother. Also it’s not close to the North, they have a huge body of water seperating them.

Quote

Without her red hair, she may not look as much like Catelyn or Lysa as you think.  And even if they are suspicious, they can't be sure.

Nope. She is a carbon copy of Catelyn made even more prettier. On phone so can’t give quotes.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

How many Vale lords have seen Cat?

I mean, Catelyn has visited the Vale before. 

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, Catelyn has visited the Vale before. 

Once and i do not remember a single Vale lord there.

The only one who remembers  Cat well enough is Royce.

[astarkchoice]

Bronze royce has been to winterfell recently leaving off his son at the watch  , knocking ned and jory into the dirt back to back we are tolsld.  He should have ate with them and seen her face, a girl supposedly a stunning rare beauty  in  an era where memory of faces ,places and dates and times.etc is more relied upon than they are now! Yeah hed know

Waynwoosld clearly knows..anyone who gets any time to spend with her knows.

The issue is the vale is LFs hometerritory thus hes already got the place under wraps, the 'resistance ' to his rule as we see.already had his men in it! If he hadnt been forced to murder crazy lysa hed be having an even easier time of it,the valemen hate the lannsiters as much do have no reason to snitch

[sifth]

Sansa has spent a lot of her recent years in the South. Her accent might have changed.

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

My question is, how much education does one receive in a convent, where Alayne is supposedly raised? Sansa doesn't go along with Alayne's backstory, and if she has shared her backstory with any Valemen, they're not great at catching her contradictory behavior. Fans keep saying she's embracing Alayne, but to be honest, she's really not. She mentally refers to herself as Alayne and sometimes refers to Petyr as 'father', but she doesn't act like a bastard girl who was raised in a convent. She freely shares her knowledge of the noble life, and consistently. She runs the Eryie in Petyr's absence with relative ease. She's also a skilled dancer.. Would a baseborn girl raised in a convent be a dancer at all? In all reality, her behavior should be raising a lot of eyebrows. Perhaps more Valemen are suspicious than we are aware of, or maybe they are kind of dumb.. 

[astarkchoice]

To be fair the valemen know baelish..they know.most of what comes from his mouth is lies, halftruths  or some trap.

If that is his daughter and her backstory isnt matching its all lost in a vast tapestry of lies he weaves and theyd be more focused on things like what happened lysa, what can they do about the new 'protector ' of lil lord arryn, why they couldnnlt fight the lannsiters, where are the clansmen ,the various news comming from all over westeros and essos too etc etc 

The few lords that bother to notice a common bastard girl wont interact with her much, those that do will work out shes not who petyr says but that wont amount to much and the few that know shes sanss wont wanna help lannisters or use what they know vs baelish until they know what hes doing........shit on reflection  if anything time spend pondering on petyrs new bastard (or just droolling over her as creepy old lords would) is valuable  time not focused on what the sneaky lil mockingbird is up to in the fast paced game of thrones!!!

[Willam Stark]

Noblemen despise bastards so they won't try to investigate Alayne's origins, some might have suspicions (the Royces) but they won't go any further.

[Corvo the Crow]

42 minutes ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

My question is, how much education does one receive in a convent, where Alayne is supposedly raised? Sansa doesn't go along with Alayne's backstory, and if she has shared her backstory with any Valemen, they're not great at catching her contradictory behavior. Fans keep saying she's embracing Alayne, but to be honest, she's really not. She mentally refers to herself as Alayne and sometimes refers to Petyr as 'father', but she doesn't act like a bastard girl who was raised in a convent. She freely shares her knowledge of the noble life, and consistently. She runs the Eryie in Petyr's absence with relative ease. She's also a skilled dancer.. Would a baseborn girl raised in a convent be a dancer at all? In all reality, her behavior should be raising a lot of eyebrows. Perhaps more Valemen are suspicious than we are aware of, or maybe they are kind of dumb.. 

Myranda Royce seems to be the only one whose suspicion is well apparent, there may be a few more suspicious ones but since we her with Myranda more than any other, we only see Myranda trying to pry more out of her.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Sansa has spent a lot of her recent years in the South. Her accent might have changed.

Two years. 

[Lord of Oldstones]

Tyrion's confession and the trial battle few days later both had the hall filled with Vale noble. I recall Lyn Corbray, Lord Hunter and Lady Waynwood being there. There must have been others i forgot. Lady Waynwood's son saw her since Bloody gate. Nestor saw her well enough too. Besides these Royce, Corbray and Waynwoods are Stark kin.

Vale lords are either really stupid or mayhaps pretending to be so.

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Once and i do not remember a single Vale lord there.

The only one who remembers  Cat well enough is Royce.

Lord Hunter, two Royces and Lyn Corbray, at minimum, were at Tyrion's trial by combat at the Eyrie, and would have seen Cat there.