As Knights of the Kingsguard, why did Sers Arthur, Gerold, and Oswell stay at the ToJ?

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

This seems a bit odd though given that Rhaegar was never actually king

It's noted in the books that the king can command the Kingsguard to follow orders of other members of the family. In this case, we're to take it that Prince Rhaegar had the right to give them commands, command they felt bound to obey by oath even after he was dead, and even after Aerys was dead, until they felt the command had run its course.

Presumably, yes, if a command came from someone they recognized as king that countermanded Rhaegar's order, they would be bound to follow that order. But suffice it to say, Viserys was not issuing any orders to the Kingsguard.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This seems a bit odd though given that Rhaegar was never actually king whereas Viserys was actually King at that time...If Viserys had given an order to come protect him would they still have to follow Rhaegar's orders over this, even though Rhaegar was dead and by that point Viserys 'outranked' him as he was a king and Rhaegar was only ever a prince? Where Rhaegar's orders only binding because Viserys never gave a counter order?

Was Viserys king though? Or was it just that Aerys named him his heir? There’s a difference… 

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

It's noted in the books that the king can command the Kingsguard to follow orders of other members of the family. In this case, we're to take it that Prince Rhaegar had the right to give them commands, command they felt bound to obey by oath even after he was dead, and even after Aerys was dead, until they felt the command had run its course.

Presumably, yes, if a command came from someone they recognized as king that countermanded Rhaegar's order, they would be bound to follow that order. But suffice it to say, Viserys was not issuing any orders to the Kingsguard.

I guess if Jon was legitimate then it renders this topic moot. Could Rhaegar have legitimized his child? Did he have the power to do that? 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, King Benedict Justman I said:

I guess if Jon was legitimate then it renders this topic moot. Could Rhaegar have legitimized his child? Did he have the power to do that? 

According to Martin only kings have the power to do that.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, King Benedict Justman I said:

I guess if Jon was legitimate then it renders this topic moot. Could Rhaegar have legitimized his child? Did he have the power to do that? 

Here: 

As to what is and is not moot... the key point is, only a =king= can legitimize a bastard......

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Here: 

As to what is and is not moot... the key point is, only a =king= can legitimize a bastard......

Agreed. But if Rhaegar had taken Lyanna as a second wife, the argument could be made for his legitimacy 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, King Benedict Justman I said:

Agreed. But if Rhaegar had taken Lyanna as a second wife, the argument could be made for his legitimacy 

I’m not sure what you’re agreeing with? I mean, that’s not an opinion, it’s what Martin said when asked about this. The hyperlink to the SSM with the full exchange is in my previous reply. 

[Lord Varys]

On 2/28/2023 at 6:50 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Agree. But they also said that they were 'Kingsguard, and Kingsguard do not flee' which implies they kept the relevant oaths. So going by the above it can only be because Jon is legit.

That is too hard an interpretation on this. Kingsguard view themselves as the elite of knights. They do not flee, regardless who they protect. If charged with protecting the king's favorite dog they would also gladly not flee and die to protect that ... one assumes.

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The answer to the OP is simple, they were ordered to by King Aerys.

By Aerys II, Rhaegar, or any other person on the king's small council or court they viewed as an authority entitled to give them command.

We see how this goes during the Dance when Larys Strong ends up giving binding commands to two Kingsguard which not only lead them to abandon their drugged monarch but also stay with their respective charges well into the reign of two new monarchs (in Willis Fell's case), continuing with their duties even after the monarch in whose name they were acting was deposed and, eventually, murdered by his own court.

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Of course that answer tip toes around the obvious question.  What if the Kingsguard knew that what Rhaegar wanted them to do would have been opposed by King Aerys?  If they were true Kingsguards, they would have brought the issue to King Aerys.  Of course, if King Aerys and Rhaegar had a common interest, and Aerys turned the Kingsguards over to Rhaegar to fulfill this common interest ...

The quote in question there doesn't really resolve anything. It just considers a hypothetical scenario where Rhaegar actually gave them commands. Of course, they likely wouldn't have stayed at the tower or with Lyanna if they felt doing this would go against their interests or any interests of their king they were caring about. They are people, not robots

The chance that Aerys II actually gave Hightower the command to remain with Lyanna or at the tower strikes one as very unlikely. Nor is it likely the king issued any orders to Whent and Dayne for months or even years if they were constantly at Rhaegar's side. After all, Aerys' KG were very prestigious men, and Gerold Hightower was the old veteran general of the War of the Ninepenny Kings. He would have been an ideal commander for the loyalist forces fighting the rebels - or an ideal advisor for the inexperienced Rhaegar.

Realistically, I don't actually think Rhaegar needed to command his two friends there - and Hightower, too, might have been glad to have an honorable excuse to not return to KL. After all, it is kind of interesting that Hightower was not named Hand in the wake of the Merryweather fiasco.

1 hour ago, King Benedict Justman I said:

If George said it, I guess that makes it true. Still don’t sit right with me though.

The gist seems to be that old orders/duties don't just go away because a new political status quo is established.

HotD, for instance, was smart enough to make it clear that the KG swear a new vow to each new monarch ... because until they do they have not yet properly recognized the new monarch. Nor has the new monarch recognized and accepted his KG. Which he doesn't have to. Any new king's first act could be to create a new royal bodyguard.

In the books this question hasn't been addressed so far explicitly, but implicitly it is clear that the KG will continue to obey orders/fulfill duties given by earlier kings if they have yet no reason to no longer do this. Not just the Dance thing I gave above confirms this, but also the fact that Arys Oakheart continues to serve as Myrcella's sworn shield even after the king giving that order - Joffrey - has died.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

This seems a bit odd though given that Rhaegar was never actually king whereas Viserys was actually King at that time...If Viserys had given an order to come protect him would they still have to follow Rhaegar's orders over this, even though Rhaegar was dead and by that point Viserys 'outranked' him as he was a king and Rhaegar was only ever a prince? Where Rhaegar's orders only binding because Viserys never gave a counter order?

That is pretty much an academic question since Viserys III was both a minor and thus would have never personally run his government ... nor did he or his mother actually know where the KG were. Or if they did, they had no way to contact them, one imagines.

If we consider the scenario the KG would have to consider whether some order of the new KG was more important than their present task. This is where everybody should consider the fact that Willis Fell stayed with Princess Jaehaera throughout the Dance - even after Aegon II resurfaced and eventually returned to KL Fell remained with the princess.

[Frey family reunion]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The quote in question there doesn't really resolve anything. It just considers a hypothetical scenario where Rhaegar actually gave them commands. Of course, they likely wouldn't have stayed at the tower or with Lyanna if they felt doing this would go against their interests or any interests of their king they were caring about. They are people, not robots

What they are are good loyal Kingsguards.  At least that’s what they tell Eddard.  And I don’t have any reason to disbelieve them.  And they seem very sure of the fact that their presence at the tower of joy was because they were being good loyal Kingsguards.  Which very much tells me that they were comfortable in the fact that Aerys wanted them there.

If so, then I agree that it’s doubtful that they believed Aerys would have wanted them away from guarding him or waging his war, just to stand guard over Rhaegar’s mistress.  Which makes me think that Lyanna and/or Lyanna’s child was not just important to Rhaegar but to Aerys as well.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

What they are are good loyal Kingsguards.  At least that’s what they tell Eddard.  And I don’t have any reason to disbelieve them.  And they seem very sure of the fact that their presence at the tower of joy was because they were being good loyal Kingsguards.  Which very much tells me that they were comfortable in the fact that Aerys wanted them there.

If so, then I agree that it’s doubtful that they believed Aerys would have wanted them away from guarding him or waging his war, just to stand guard over Rhaegar’s mistress.  Which makes me think that Lyanna and/or Lyanna’s child was not just important to Rhaegar but to Aerys as well.

That's what they tell Ned. In a fever dream.

Tyrion beats up Joffrey, yet when confronted by Renly or Stannis he would still defend his nephew's life and crown.

When you face an enemy of your faction then whatever differences there are in your camp would be ignored. We know there was factionalism within the Targaryen camp earlier - but the victory of the rebels would have ended all that.

[Frey family reunion]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's what they tell Ned. In a fever dream.

Tyrion beats up Joffrey, yet when confronted by Renly or Stannis he would still defend his nephew's life and crown.

When you face an enemy of your faction then whatever differences there are in your camp would be ignored. We know there was factionalism within the Targaryen camp earlier - but the victory of the rebels would have ended all that.

I’m not so sure that the rebels victory would end it.  At least not for these Kingsguards.   Especially if they swore a vow that had not yet been fulfilled.

ETA: nevermind, I see what you’re saying now, at least I think I do.  Yes, there was factionalism within the Targaryens, but the fact that the Kingsguards seem so self-assured that they had been acting as good Kingsguards throughout, even though they weren’t there to fight the Battle at the Trident, or at King’s Landing to protect the king, means that whatever they were doing was something that Aerys explicitly wanted them to do.

So I think whatever issues were occurring between Rhaegar and Aerys, at least for what the Kingsguards were assigned to do, Rhaegar and Aerys were in accord.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m not so sure that the rebels victory would end it.  At least not for these Kingsguards.   Especially if they swore a vow that had not yet been fulfilled.

ETA: nevermind, I see what you’re saying now, at least I think I do.  Yes, there was factionalism within the Targaryens, but the fact that the Kingsguards seem so self-assured that they had been acting as good Kingsguards throughout, even though they weren’t there to fight the Battle at the Trident, or at King’s Landing to protect the king, means that whatever they were doing was something that Aerys explicitly wanted them to do.

So I think whatever issues were occurring between Rhaegar and Aerys, at least for what the Kingsguards were assigned to do, Rhaegar and Aerys were in accord.

No, my point was that the three guys - or at least only Dayne and Whent - could easily enough be part of a conspiracy to curtail or limit the powers of the Mad King, possibly even deposing him for his own good and the good of the dynasty ... while at the same time fighting against any rebels against Targaryen rule.

After all, Rhaegar does the same. He wanted or thought about deposing his dad or removing him from his own government ... while also trying to end Robert's Rebellion.

In the fever dream sequence any bad things Aerys may have done - and which earlier may have motivated (some of) the KG to plot against Aerys - pale compared to the Trident and, especially, the Sack. Now Rhaegar and Aerys II and Elia and the children are Targaryen martyrs. Which is why the KG can easily say the things they do. They are not talking to the reader or people friendly to the Targaryens, but to the best friend of Robert the Usurper.

That certainly means they would want to form a united front even if Dayne and Whent had always been Rhaegar boys while Hightower was part of camp Aerys.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 2/28/2023 at 6:20 PM, King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd said:

They abandoned their vows as KG and believed in Rhaegar’s prophecy, and they believed Jon would save the world.

They mention their vows in the ToJ sequence, so I don't think they abandoned them.

[Lord Varys]

59 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

They mention their vows in the ToJ sequence, so I don't think they abandoned them.

That's not mutually exclusive. Also, of course, Rhaegar's prophecy is Aerys' prophecy, too. His and Rhaella's union is the union of destiny, nor Rhaegar's.

[Frey family reunion]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, my point was that the three guys - or at least only Dayne and Whent - could easily enough be part of a conspiracy to curtail or limit the powers of the Mad King, possibly even deposing him for his own good and the good of the dynasty ... while at the same time fighting against any rebels against Targaryen rule.

After all, Rhaegar does the same. He wanted or thought about deposing his dad or removing him from his own government ... while also trying to end Robert's Rebellion.

In the fever dream sequence any bad things Aerys may have done - and which earlier may have motivated (some of) the KG to plot against Aerys - pale compared to the Trident and, especially, the Sack. Now Rhaegar and Aerys II and Elia and the children are Targaryen martyrs. Which is why the KG can easily say the things they do. They are not talking to the reader or people friendly to the Targaryens, but to the best friend of Robert the Usurper.

That certainly means they would want to form a united front even if Dayne and Whent had always been Rhaegar boys while Hightower was part of camp Aerys.

The problem is all three Kingsguards are united that they have all remained good Kingsguards not just because of the Trident and the Sack, but during the Trident and the Sack.  Even though they weren't there to fight the war or defend King Aerys.  So it doens't appear to be the case that they only resumed their loyalty to Aerys because of the events of the Sack and the Trident.

If you want to dismiss the conversation because it was in the context of a fever dream, that's fine.  But there is corroboration to their belief that they have remained loyal to King Aerys.  The Worldbook has indicated that near the end the only persons that Aerys still trusted were his Kingsguards (save Jaime).  It's very doubtful that the ever paranoid Aerys would have maintained this trust if Whent and Arthur disappeared with Rhaegar without Aerys' permission, or that Gerold simply never returned after fetching Rhaegar without Aerys' leave.

So what is one to make of this?  I think the answer is fairly simple even if it doesn't necessarily jive with a lot of the readers' current assumptions.  Whent and Arthur accompanied Rhaegar with the blessing of King Aerys.  Aerys apparently knew how to summon Rhaegar when he needed him, thus Aerys knew where to find Rhaegar.  If Aerys did indeed send Gerold out to summon Rhaegar, then Gerold only stayed behind to take Rhaegar's place, because Aerys ordered him to do so.

So if these three Kingsguards all remained loyal Kingsguards throughout, what else does that tell us?

It tells us that despite the whisperings of Aerys inner circle, the tourney at Harrenhal was probably not an attempt to remove Aerys from power.  After all, when Rhaegar says that he had considered calling a Great Council (presumably to remove Aerys), he indicated that it was a road he never ended up taking.  Which seems to imply that Harrenhal was not Rhaegar's attempt at putting together a Great Council.

So the question to ask is what else was motivating Rhaegar during this time period?  And we already know the answer to that.  He was motivated by the Prince that Was Promised prophecy.  And according to Aemon, the Prince that was Promised Prophecy dealt with the Battle for the Dawn, and dragons.  

So it stands to reason, if Rhaegar was pulling the strings at Harrenhal, and he was doing so in secret, then he was probably doing it for reasons to fulfill a prophecy.  He was preparing for the Battle for the Dawn.