I am not convinced by Lemongate

[Craving Peaches]

Now I know memories are a tricky business as they are not always reliable. Much has been made of how Daenerys' memory of the Big House with the Red Door being in Braavos is wrong and it was actually in Dorne. I just don't feel the evidence is strong enough. As far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong) the theory is that because of the presence of a lemon tree in Daenerys' memories of being in Braavos, this means she was not actually in Braavos but in Dorne, because lemon trees don't grow in Braavos. I have two issues:

1. There is nothing to say Lemon trees could not grow in Braavos if imported. Trees are rare in Braavos but they are there:

Quote

Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty.

And we know Daenerys was in a big house, presumably the kind of house a wealthy person would have, since it was big and they could afford servants. Furthermore, it is said that they were hosted by wealthy merchants and so on.

Quote

At first the magisters and archons and merchant princes were pleased to welcome the last Targaryens to their homes and tables

So if they didn't have a garden with a lemon tree in their own house, there's no reason why Daenerys couldn't have seen it in someone else's house. So I don't see why it would be impossible for her to encounter a lemon tree while staying somewhere like that in Braavos. If it wasn't in Braavos then it could have been somewhere else. Doesn't mean it was Dorne, because -

2. There is nothing that suggests lemons only grow in Dorne. Lemons are mentioned in conjunction with Dorne a lot, so we know they are grown there, but there is zero evidence that Dorne is the only place where they can grow and they can't grow anywhere else. In fact, we know they aren't exclusive to Dorne, because they are said to grow in Meereeen:

Quote

Afterward her lord husband led his guests onto the lower terrace, so the visitors from the Yellow City might behold Meereen by night. Wine cups in hand, the Yunkai'i wandered the garden in small groups, beneath lemon trees and night-blooming flowers, and Dany found herself face-to-face with Brown Ben Plumm.

So taking they above into account I just do not see how lemon tree = actually in Dorne. Now I am not saying it is guaranteed she was in Braavos either but I don't have an issue if she was because I don't see a problem with a lemon tree being in Braavos. And for all this discussion of lemon trees we might have missed this other clue here. From Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying:

Quote

 She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

I believe that this passage from TWOW is a big part of it, related to climate:

Spoiler

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes.

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

 

[Mourning Star]

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too."

And I would add…

Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You're afraid all the piss will wash out and we'll see you're really a knight o' the Kingsguard!

But seriously, I think the lemons are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the discrepancies. Stone blocks being torn from the walls of Dragonstone to sink a fleet when Dragonstone isn’t made of stone blocks. Usurpers knives that never existed. Moonlit flights to Dragonstone when Rhaella left in the morning. Remembering sailing into Braavos… it’s more than just lemon trees.

 Within, you will see many things that disturb you. Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I believe that this passage from TWOW is a big part of it, related to climate:

If anything, shouldn't the big house with the Red Door be in Tyrosh, given Daenerys has a Tyroshi accent and that is where she was in the original draft?

And that should prove even more against the 'Lemons exclusive to Dorne' argument.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Mourning Star said:

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too."

Lemons can grow in places other than Dorne though.

1 minute ago, Mourning Star said:

But seriously, I think the lemons are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the discrepancies. Stone blocks being torn from the walls of Dragonstone to sink a fleet when Dragonstone isn’t made of stone blocks. Usurpers knives that never existed. Moonlit flights to Dragonstone when Rhaella left in the morning. Remembering sailing into Braavos… it’s more than just lemon trees.

 Within, you will see many things that disturb you. Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were. 

There certainly are many I just don't think it means Daenerys was in Dorne. I think if it wasn't Braavos Tyrosh is the most likely option for the reasons I said in my reply above. Tyrosh has the right climate and Daenerys has a Tyroshi accent.

[kissdbyfire]

@Craving Peaches, I’m with you. The main hard evidence seems to be the absence of trees, and that quote from a Sam chapter in Feast pretty much resolves that issue. The rest is, as far as I can tell, speculation and interpretations of things that Martin, in true Martin form, makes vague and foggy and full of information gaps. 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I’m with you. The main hard evidence seems to be the absence of trees, and that quote from a Sam chapter in Feast pretty much resolves that issue. The rest is, as far as I can tell, speculation and interpretations of things that Martin, in true Martin form, makes vague and foggy and full of information gaps. 

What do you think about the carved animal faces ascribed to the HwtRD? Do they mean anything?

[Phylum of Alexandria]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If anything, shouldn't the big house with the Red Door be in Tyrosh, given Daenerys has a Tyroshi accent and that is where she was in the original draft?

And that should prove even more against the 'Lemons exclusive to Dorne' argument.

Maybe. I don't actually remember the other particulars of the argument, though there were other points made to suggest that it was Dorne rather than some other place.

I just went to a Reddit page that claimed to be a FAQ for Lemongate, but they merely advance the claim that lemons don't grow in Braavos. They point out that they're famous in Dorne, but the hill they're prepared to die on is "not Braavos."

But maybe there are different Lemongate factions at this point...

[Mourning Star]

Just now, Craving Peaches said:

Lemons can grow in places other than Dorne though.

There certainly are many I just don't think it means Daenerys was in Dorne. I think if it wasn't Braavos Tyrosh is the most likely option for the reasons I said in my reply above. Tyrosh has the right climate and Daenerys has a Tyroshi accent.

I mean sure, Tyrosh or Dorne, but it not being Braavos would be a pretty massive plot point. At that point Dany’s past isn’t what she believes and we are just speculating as to the details of the truth.

Dany’s old guardian’s sickness is described as “the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor” in contrast to Aemon’s time sick in Braavos where they can’t keep him warm.

I don’t think any one detail is proof positive of anything, and independently they can all be explained away. However taken together, along with the rest of the story, and I can’t help but believe it’s intentional and there is more going on here than meets the eye.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Mourning Star said:

I don’t think any one detail is proof positive of anything, and independently they can all be explained away. However taken together, along with the rest of the story, and I can’t help but believe it’s intentional and there is more going on here than meets the eye.

There definitely is something, I am just not convinced it is related to Dorne. Especially when you factor in the secret marriage pact that was signed in Braavos. If Daenerys was in Dorne why was Oberyn signing it in Braavos and not in his homeland? Because the Sealord was that important a witness?

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What do you think about the carved animal faces ascribed to the HwtRD? Do they mean anything?

TWoIaF - The Free Cities - Braavos

“Braavos is a city renowned for its architecture: the sprawling Sealord’s Palace, with its magnificent menagerie of queer beasts and birds from all around the world; the imposing Palace of Justice; the huge Temple of the Moonsingers; the aqueduct that the Braavosi named the sweetwater river, carrying much-needed freshwater from the mainland of Essos (for the water in the canals is brackish, muddy, and too foul to drink because of the refuse thrown into it by the city’s inhabitants); the towers of the keyholders and noble families; and the House of Red Hands, a great hospice and center of healing. In and amongst these noble structures are countless shops, brothels, inns, alehouses, guildhalls, and merchants’ exchanges. Along the streets and bridges stand statues of past Sealords, lawgivers, sailors, warriors, even poets, singers, and courtesans.”

[kissdbyfire]

I also have a huge issue w/ Jon being 9 months older than we have been told. Yes, yes, maester Luwin tells Jon that bastards grow up faster or something along those lines, but I really don’t think it has anything to do w/ this or w/ Jon being older than what we (and most characters at Winterfell) think he is. There is just no way in 7 hells Cat would be fooled by a toddler being passed for a baby. No. Way. In. Seven. Hells. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[three-eyed monkey]

56 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If anything, shouldn't the big house with the Red Door be in Tyrosh, given Daenerys has a Tyroshi accent and that is where she was in the original draft?

This is the source of the whole damned thing if you ask me. The house with the lemon tree was originally set in Tyrosh.

Personally, I think Raff's line about orange trees in the Mercy chapter is GRRM trolling the lemongaters.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, three-eyed monkey said:

Personally, I think Raff's line about orange trees in the Mercy chapter is GRRM trolling the lemongaters.

I wonder if he's even heard of half of these theories sometimes. I think we should all take 'The Corn Code' as a cautionary tale.

[three-eyed monkey]

25 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I wonder if he's even heard of half of these theories sometimes. I think we should all take 'The Corn Code' as a cautionary tale.

Well, Raff's line might be coincidence, it might be proof of lemongate, or it could be trolling. Except I don't believe in coincidence or lemongate.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

All those inconsistencies could well be telling about her insanity if you nitpick it

[Willam Stark]

Those quotes put an end to the Lemongate thing, which is based on the false fact that lemons only grow in Dorne.

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I also have a huge issue w/ Jon being 9 months older than we have been told. Yes, yes, maester Luwin tells Jon that bastards grow up faster or something along those lines, but I really don’t think it has anything to do w/ this or w/ Jon being older than what we (and most characters at Winterfell) think he is. There is just no way in 7 hells Cat would be fooled by a toddler being passed for a baby. No. Way. In. Seven. Hells. 

Jon was born during the Sack of King's Landing or a bit after that, we know this thanks to the following facts:

- Jon was born in 283

- Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany

- Dany was born in 284, 9 months after the Sack of King's Landing

With our calendar it corresponds to September/October 283 for Jon, May 284 for Dany.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Those quotes put an end to the Lemongate thing, which is based on the false fact that lemons only grow in Dorne.

Jon was born during the Sack of King's Landing or a bit after that, we know this thanks to the following facts:

- Jon was born in 283

- Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany

- Dany was born in 284, 9 months after the Sack of King's Landing

With our calendar it corresponds to September/October 283 for Jon, May 284 for Dany.

I know. But according to lemongate he was born 9 months earlier, and it was Dany who was born around the time of the Sack of KL, to Lyanna and Rhaegar, at the ToJ. That would make Jon a toddler by the time Ned gets back home. And my point is that there's no way a toddler can be passed for a baby. 

[Willam Stark]

I agree with you then, besides the abomination already settled the issue anyway, at least for Jon's mother.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Willam Stark

[Alester Florent]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And my point is that there's no way a toddler can be passed for a baby. 

Except on network TV dramas where newborn babies often appear several weeks if not months old...

Edited March 1, 2023 by Alester Florent