I am not convinced by Lemongate

[Mourning Star]

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The cycle of the seasons is irregular in Planetos but we are now in Autumn so Braavos is colder than it would be in Summer.  The climate is not fixed all "year" round and the seasonal swings are greater the further north you go.

It's entirely possible that Dany spent a few summer years in Braavos and that Willem Darry, who died of a wasting sickness in a hot Summer, presented very differently to Aemon, who died of extreme old age in a dank Autumn.

The author changing his mind between Tyrosh and Braavos is the most likely cause of the discrepancy / inconsistency theories.

Is it possible?

In 299 the longest summer in living history has ended, lasting 10 years 2 turns and 16 days.

People classically believe Dany to have been born in 284. Making her about 5 when the most recent summer started. According to the Wiki, Dany was about 5 years old when Willem Darry died.

I think both the repetition of the Braavos/lemon inconsistency in later works and GRRMs answers to fan questions point to there being more to the story than an unintentional error.

In addition, the lemon tree is not the only inconsistency, just the most obvious. For instance, Braavos is a city built of stone, not wood, it smells of fish not flowers, how can stone blocks be torn from the walls of Dragonstone when it’s not made of blocks (but fused stone), and there were no Usurper’s knives before the wine merchant.

Its not that we can’t come up with an explanation for any one discrepancy, but rather that the number of discrepancies gives weight to the idea that there is an underlying misconception. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Alester Florent]

32 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Is it possible?

In 299 the longest summer in living history has ended, lasting 10 years 2 turns and 16 days.

People classically believe Dany to have been born in 284. Making her about 5 when the most recent summer started. According to the Wiki, Dany was about 5 years old when Willem Darry died.

I think both the repetition of the Braavos/lemon inconsistency in later works and GRRMs answers to fan questions point to there being more to the story than an unintentional error.

In addition, the lemon tree is not the only inconsistency, just the most obvious. For instance, Braavos is a city built of stone, not wood, it smells of fish not flowers, how can stone blocks be torn from the walls of Dragonstone when it’s not made of blocks (but fused stone), and there were no Usurper’s knives before the wine merchant.

Its not that we can’t come up with an explanation for any one discrepancy, but rather that the number of discrepancies gives weight to the idea that there is an underlying misconception. 

I think the "usurper's knives" is partly Viserys's paranoia rather than the reality. And even if Robert didn't have assassins after them, there were certainly spies and almost certainly people of dubious reputation looking for a reward from Robert who might have targetted them on their own initiative.

So I don't think that element of things is entirely fanciful. The other points mentioned are worth looking into, although I do wonder how much of this is actually GRRM not nailing down all the details when he wrote AGoT and inconsistencies creeping in as he later develops the setting, rather than an intentional mystery.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Crona said:

I never looked into the Lemongate stuff, so I have no skin it.

But in regards to Dany living with Sealord of Braavos, what would be the point of hiding it? The quote posted by @Frey family reunion, when was that quote made?

Q: Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn’t really grow in Braavos’ cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to future revelations about Dany’s past?  Thank you so much.

GRRM: Very perceptive of you.

Yes, it does point to … well, that would be telling.

Was that before ADWD? If so, then he’s probably hiding Arianne and Viserys marriage pact. If that quote is after ADWD then I have no idea why he would hide that. I mean he could also just say those climate limitations are not found in the Sealord of Braavos estate. 

According to this article it was in 2015, well after ADWD.

Quote

In fact, it’s so fuzzy that the house might not be in Braavos at all. George R.R. Martin answered a fan’s question about the house back in 2015:

Q: “Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn’t really grow in Braavos’s cold, foggy climate. Is this discrepancy significant? Does it point to future revelations about Dany’s past. Thank you so much.”

GRRM: “Very perceptive of you. Yes, it does point to … well, that would be telling.”

https://winteriscoming.net/2021/05/01/7-intriguing-unsolved-mysteries-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-game-of-thrones/4/

Edited March 21, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

I think the "usurper's knives" is partly Viserys's paranoia rather than the reality. And even if Robert didn't have assassins after them, there were certainly spies and almost certainly people of dubious reputation looking for a reward from Robert who might have targetted them on their own initiative.

As we know it wouldn’t be an unreasonable paranoia, since Robert eventually does send hired knives.

Again, no one discrepancy is difficult to explain away.

But, Dany also comments for the readers benefit that she has never seen them, and the reader gets confirmation from Robert himself that he had not sent assassins previously.

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

So I don't think that element of things is entirely fanciful. The other points mentioned are worth looking into, although I do wonder how much of this is actually GRRM not nailing down all the details when he wrote AGoT and inconsistencies creeping in as he later develops the setting, rather than an intentional mystery.

I’ve wondered the same. However, there are comments from Dany’s chapters, right from the start, which I think indicate to the reader that they should be suspicious, and that there was an intended twist planned for Dany’s past from the start. When you go back and read her early chapters they are thick with these sorts of things.

And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not.

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. 

A princess, Dany thought. She had forgotten what that was like. Perhaps she had never really known.

All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.

All Dany 1 GoT

Even the fact that she thinks of herself as Dany, and not Daenerys is a red flag imo.

And what I’ve listed here is really just a part of the reason I think there’s something to Lemongate. Once you start looking, I think there are a lot of subtle clues that Dany is not who she thinks she is.

No squall could frighten Dany, though. Daenerys Stormborn, she was called, for she had come howling into the world on distant Dragonstone as the greatest storm in the memory of Westeros howled outside, a storm so fierce that it ripped gargoyles from the castle walls and smashed her father's fleet to kindling.

But, we see from Cressen:

The maester did not believe in omens. And yet . . . old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets. He wondered if his gargoyles had ever seen its like. They had been here so much longer than he had, and would still be here long after he was gone. If stone tongues could speak .

And we get this fun bit from Jaime:

Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar's infant son Aegon, still in Maegor's with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought.

As far as I know, nobody in Westeros even mentions the storm that supposedly sank the Targaryen fleet.

And Dragons do not howl, wolves do.

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

Fear is for the darkness, for cold winter when the white winds blow.

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

What a pair Jon and Dany make, both not knowing who they are, as different as the sun and the moon, and theirs is the Song of Ice and Fire. 

There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

Compare this last bit to Ned’s earlier thought.

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

So what changed between these two thoughts? The Usurper sent a hired knife after Dany.

The mention of dreams reminded him. "I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through histube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

Edited March 21, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Frey family reunion]

I don’t really understand the argument that this is just an artifact of the earlier drafts of AGOT where Dany was originally supposed to be from Tyrosh.  This only becomes a mystery because GRRM, starting in ASOS, starts to hit us over the head with two ideas:  1.  Lemons are grown in Dorne and 2. Lemons don’t grow in Braavos.

So there seems to be a hint that Dany’s memory of a House with a lemon tree outside the window actually took place in Dorne and not in Braavos.

Then we learn that when Dany would have just been a wee child, Oberyn travels to Braavos and signs a marriage pact with Willem Darry pledging Arianne to Viserys.  Oddly enough, Dany isn’t included in the marriage pact.  Why not, for instance, include her in the marriage pact, say to Quentyn?

The only possibility that makes any sense to me at least, is that Dany really isn’t a Targaryen princess.  But Viserys was tasked with raising her as his sister so one day she can be successfully passed off as a Targaryen princess, in exchange for something, perhaps in exchange for an army.  Which is exactly what ends up happening.

So my guess is Oberyn didn’t come to Braavos with a lemon tree as a gift, instead he came to Braavos with a very young girl that could pass as a Targaryen princess.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t really understand the argument that this is just an artifact of the earlier drafts of AGOT where Dany was originally supposed to be from Tyrosh.  This only becomes a mystery because GRRM, starting in ASOS, starts to hit us over the head with two ideas:  1.  Lemons are grown in Dorne and 2. Lemons don’t grow in Braavos.

So there seems to be a hint that Dany’s memory of a House with a lemon tree outside the window actually took place in Dorne and not in Braavos.

Then we learn that when Dany would have just been a wee child, Oberyn travels to Braavos and signs a marriage pact with Willem Darry pledging Arianne to Viserys.  Oddly enough, Dany isn’t included in the marriage pact.  Why not, for instance, include her in the marriage pact, say to Quentyn?

The only possibility that makes any sense to me at least, is that Dany really isn’t a Targaryen princess.  But Viserys was tasked with raising her as his sister so one day she can be successfully passed off as a Targaryen princess, in exchange for something, perhaps in exchange for an army.  Which is exactly what ends up happening.

So my guess is Oberyn didn’t come to Braavos with a lemon tree as a gift, instead he came to Braavos with a very young girl that could pass as a Targaryen princess.

Except that she is a Targaryen princess.  She has three dragon companions, which is about as clear an indication as you're going to get that she is Targaryen.  It's good enough for me, and I think every other reader.

Given that, the plot machinations required for her to end up with Viserys if she's fake range from absurdly complicated to the outright byzantine.  I don't buy it for a second.

I do think there is something to the whole lemon thing.  They keep getting mentioned as being from Dorne.  They may have secretly spent time someplace in Dorne, or more likely, were in a manse in Braavos owned by a wealthy Dornishman who wanted a lemon tree and could afford the greenhouse or whatever was necessary to keep it alive.  Either would indicate more extensive involvement by Dorne in their early exile.

[three-eyed monkey]

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Except that she is a Targaryen princess.  She has three dragon companions, which is about as clear an indication as you're going to get that she is Targaryen.  It's good enough for me, and I think every other reader.

Given that, the plot machinations required for her to end up with Viserys if she's fake range from absurdly complicated to the outright byzantine.  I don't buy it for a second.

I do think there is something to the whole lemon thing.  They keep getting mentioned as being from Dorne.  They may have secretly spent time someplace in Dorne, or more likely, were in a manse in Braavos owned by a wealthy Dornishman who wanted a lemon tree and could afford the greenhouse or whatever was necessary to keep it alive.  Either would indicate more extensive involvement by Dorne in their early exile.

I agree with this. I'd add one more point, looking at this in the context of Dany's character arc.

Dany wants to be a good queen and bring justice to the realm, but she also needs to wake the dragon if she is to ever win the throne. Essentially, Dany has the potential to be like Aerys and Viserys or else be like Rhaegar. She could be a mad queen or a great queen. This choice her character will have to make is reflected in the Targaryen coin toss. Madness and greatness are the two sides of the coin. Whenever a Targaryen is born the gods toss a coin and the world holds it's breath. I feel this element of the story is so much stronger if Dany is a Targaryen.

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, Nevets said:

Except that she is a Targaryen princess.  She has three dragon companions, which is about as clear an indication as you're going to get that she is Targaryen.  It's good enough for me, and I think every other reader.

Given that, the plot machinations required for her to end up with Viserys if she's fake range from absurdly complicated to the outright byzantine.  I don't buy it for a second.

I do think there is something to the whole lemon thing.  They keep getting mentioned as being from Dorne.  They may have secretly spent time someplace in Dorne, or more likely, were in a manse in Braavos owned by a wealthy Dornishman who wanted a lemon tree and could afford the greenhouse or whatever was necessary to keep it alive.  Either would indicate more extensive involvement by Dorne in their early exile.

I think it’s wholly in Martin’s wheelhouse to make Dany the Mother of dragons precisely because she’s not a Targaryen Princess.  You claim that the dragons are proof that she’s a legit Targaryen princess, but of course that ignores a major plot point in the story.  The Targaryen royal line had lost their dragons almost a hundred and fifty years before the start of the story.

It’s one of the first things we learn about in AGOT.  The Targaryen line had always wed brother to sister to keep their line pure. But then came something called the Dance with Dragons where brother and sister went to war.  After that they lost their dragons and had never been able to get them back.

So why can Danaerys hatch her dragons when her alleged family line had not been able to hatch dragons for one hundred and fifty years?

I think the solution is perhaps that Dany isn’t really the daughter of Aerys and Rahella.  Instead she is the product of intentional breeding to produce someone that can pass as a Targaryen princess.  And perhaps in doing so, bloodlines that were split off after the Dance were rejoined in a way that the political and happenstance marriages of the royal Targaryen line were never able to accomplish.

So in other words, we have the male line that continued in the royal family line, but the female line branched off.  Into House Velaryon, the Blackfyre, the Plumms, Longwaters, ect.  Dany was probably brought about by some combination of lines.

To paraphrase Illyrio, Viserys is truly his father’s son, but Dany is something different, she is truly the blood of Aegon the Conqueror.  In other words, her bloodline is closer to the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror at least insofar as the dragons are concerned because of a rejoinder of bloodlines.  Which perhaps explains Quaith’s cryptic words to Dany, to remember who she is, that the dragons remember.

The dragons could care less who is a legally legitimate Targaryen.  They are attuned to the bloodline, the proper bloodline, not the one that the royal family had evolved into.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[the trees have eyes]

19 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

In addition, the lemon tree is not the only inconsistency, just the most obvious. For instance, Braavos is a city built of stone, not wood, it smells of fish not flowers, how can stone blocks be torn from the walls of Dragonstone when it’s not made of blocks (but fused stone), and there were no Usurper’s knives before the wine merchant.

Its not that we can’t come up with an explanation for any one discrepancy, but rather that the number of discrepancies gives weight to the idea that there is an underlying misconception. 

The working harbour and street slums of Braavos will be a very different experience to the mansions and gardens of the mighty.  That's true of every city and there's no reason to exempt Braavos.  Fused stone so stone blocks fused together: if not stone blocks then what?  Fleeing because they feared, or Viserys feared, assassins is a perfectly understandable course of action even if there were no assassins stalking them and Viserys was wrong.

Lemongate can point to inconsistencies but what it doesn't do is propose a credible identity for Dany being other than who she is portrayed to be.  I know GRRM likes a rug pull but the idea that Dany is Jane Doe, impersonator from Flea Bottom, who just happened to hatch three dragon eggs, is a subversion of her character and identity that seems a step too far.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I agree with this. I'd add one more point, looking at this in the context of Dany's character arc.

Dany wants to be a good queen and bring justice to the realm, but she also needs to wake the dragon if she is to ever win the throne. Essentially, Dany has the potential to be like Aerys and Viserys or else be like Rhaegar. She could be a mad queen or a great queen. This choice her character will have to make is reflected in the Targaryen coin toss. Madness and greatness are the two sides of the coin. Whenever a Targaryen is born the gods toss a coin and the world holds it's breath. I feel this element of the story is so much stronger if Dany is a Targaryen.

But that begs the question what does it mean to be a Targaryen?  Is the issue whether Dany has the proper fictional “legal legitimacy” to the throne?  Or does it mean that she possesses the magical Targaryen bloodline that dates back to Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives?  

The potential for madness is in the blood, not in the legal inheritance of the heirship.  So if Dany possesses the Targaryen bloodline that issue is still present even if she may not technically be a legal descendant of the previous Targaryen king.  And like Aegon the Conqueror maybe she will forge her kingdom not by a legal right, but by right of conquest.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Mourning Star]

15 hours ago, Nevets said:

I do think there is something to the whole lemon thing.  They keep getting mentioned as being from Dorne.  They may have secretly spent time someplace in Dorne, or more likely, were in a manse in Braavos owned by a wealthy Dornishman who wanted a lemon tree and could afford the greenhouse or whatever was necessary to keep it alive.  Either would indicate more extensive involvement by Dorne in their early exile.

So you think the plot would have to be too complicated for Dany to have a mystery to her identity, but prefer the idea there was an unnamed eccentric Dornishman with a passion for a lemon tree in Braavos?

First, the plot of this story is complicated, downright byzantine in fact, and there is no reason to expect it to be otherwise. Appeals to Occam's Razor or preferences of simplicity simply don't have a solid foundation when discussing this series.

15 hours ago, Nevets said:

Except that she is a Targaryen princess.  She has three dragon companions, which is about as clear an indication as you're going to get that she is Targaryen.  It's good enough for me, and I think every other reader.

Second, I agree she has Valyrian blood, but would argue that the return of Dragons is evidence of more than just Targaryen blood as well.

And she has a Stark colored horse as a companion which she was a natural rider of as well.

Oh, and flowers for her hair! While dressed in Stark colors!

Starlight and seafoam, Dany thought, a wisp of silk that leaves my left breast bare for Daario's delight. Oh, and flowers for my hair. When first they met, the captain brought her flowers every day, all the way from Yunkai to Meereen. "Bring the grey linen gown with the pearls on the bodice. Oh, and my white lion's pelt."

---

 The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Fused stone so stone blocks fused together: if not stone blocks then what?

The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite.

There is no evidence of Dragonstone being damaged by a storm, and no way they could have repaired it since Dany's birth (they do not possess the art).

Remember, unlike on TV, Dragonstone in the books is shaped like dragons.

More importantly, the idea that one of the Valyrian fused stone structures got torn apart by wind doesn't fit at all with what we are told about them.

They still endured, unchanging, four centuries after Valyria itself had met its Doom. He looked for ruts and cracks but found only a pile of warm dung deposited by one of the horses.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

  Fleeing because they feared, or Viserys feared, assassins is a perfectly understandable course of action even if there were no assassins stalking them and Viserys was wrong.

On it's face the story is believable, that's the point. Viserys, whether he knew it or not, was lying.

Why, if Illyrio had been planning Dany's marriage for years, did they only stay with him for half a year?

If Illyrio was plotting since Young Griff's birth, were Dany and Viserys's movements from court to court part of that plan?

It certainly established Dany's identity "beyond a doubt", and maybe that was the point.

Viserys, it should be noted, would have a vested interest (in regards to his claim on the iron throne) in Dany being his little sister as opposed to his elder brother's daughter, in addition to selling her for an army.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Lemongate can point to inconsistencies but what it doesn't do is propose a credible identity for Dany being other than who she is portrayed to be.  I know GRRM likes a rug pull but the idea that Dany is Jane Doe, impersonator from Flea Bottom, who just happened to hatch three dragon eggs, is a subversion of her character and identity that seems a step too far.

I think it is literally spelled out actually. Nor do I think she is a pisswater princess.

"Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are."

We could get into the bottomless rabbit hole of the House of the Undying, but the Red Door appears not once but twice. There is a stark king and a dragon king in the hall of visions. And the wine seller even makes an appearance.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Mourning Star

[three-eyed monkey]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But that begs the question what does it mean to be a Targaryen?  Is the issue whether Dany has the proper fictional “legal legitimacy” to the throne?  Or does it mean that she possesses the magical Targaryen bloodline that dates back to Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives?

Well, Targaryen means a member of the Targaryen family bloodline. I never said anything about it meaning Dany has legal legitimacy, because I don't think she does as the Targaryen line was supplanted by the Usurper. I agree it has to do with her bloodline that dates back far beyond Aegon.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The potential for madness is in the blood, not in the legal inheritance of the heirship.  So if Dany possesses the Targaryen bloodline that issue is still present even if she may not technically be a legal descendant of the previous Targaryen king.  And like Aegon the Conqueror maybe she will forge her kingdom not by a legal right, but by right of conquest.

I agree that she will have to win the throne by right of conquest, that's why she will have to wake the dragon to win the throne.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that she is a secret Targ from Dorne, as opposed to the child of Aerys and Rhaella. So she has the blood of Aegon in her veins but she is not the daughter of Aerys. My question is, what's the point of that?

If you really think Dany is not who she thinks she is, then I suggest the other options that make sense are that she is either Rhaegar's daughter by Lyanna, potentially a twin of Jon; or else the daughter of Ashara Dayne by Aerys. In both cases the lemon tree and red door would be in Starfall. Those theories at least makes some sort of thematic sense and keep Dany within the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

I'm open-minded to the good points being made by @Mourning Star above, but I'd like to see a more complete theory on the subject.

[Frey family reunion]

17 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that she is a secret Targ from Dorne, as opposed to the child of Aerys and Rhaella. So she has the blood of Aegon in her veins but she is not the daughter of Aerys. My question is, what's the point of that?

I think the point of that would be that outside of the legal fiction that kept this particular family in power, there was no longer anything really special about them that would justify allowing them to rule and then to have their children rule the realm.

Aegon and his sister-wives ruled because they could control dragons which enabled them to rule first through violence, and then through the fear of violence.  The family kind of adapted a bit, to try and at least be decent rulers, but their rule was always kept secure with the backdrop threat of their dragons.

However, when they lost their dragons, they only kept their rule through custom.  People were used to their family being in power.  So no matter how good or rotten their rule was, the inertia of the people of Westeros kind of kept them in power.

Until Robert that is.

Dany coming in and taking the throne because of some sort of ridiculous right of inheritance is patently ridiculous on it’s face, yet a large number of people would still accept it.

So it would be interesting if the fiction were torn away, and it turns out that Dany has no “legitimate” right to the throne, but instead reverts back to her ancestors and takes it because she has control over a mini nuclear weapon.  

If this is the case, I personally would prefer that her parents be no one of any real significance.  Perhaps from a maternal line of prostitutes born in a brothel that frequented both Targaryen and Velaryon customers, which would allow for a way to bring back the bloodlines that the politics of Westeros had prevented.  

After all we are given a hint that “Aegon” may be from a maternal line of Blackfyres which had ended up in a pillow house, so it might be interesting if Dany had a similar modest background.  A background which becomes irrelevant once she hatched her dragons.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[GZ Bloodraven]

46 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

After all we are given a hint that “Aegon” may be from a maternal line of Blackfyres which had ended up in a pillow house, so it might be interesting if Dany had a similar modest background.  A background which becomes irrelevant once she hatched her dragons.

You're saying what if she is the mummer's dragon...I actually love that so much; it's not going to happen, but it would be such an identity crisis for her, I love it. It really hammers home the "identity can be very very flexible" message, but maybe a little too hard once we have a similar reveal with Jon. Two parentage reveals (three if you include the "Tyrion is a targ" people and four if you include the "Aegon is Faegon" people) is, like, a lot of twist parentage reveals.

[BalerionTheCat]

On 3/2/2023 at 10:39 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Quote

GRRM: Very perceptive of you.

Yes, it does point to … well, that would be telling.

It’s odd that the author would spend so much valuable real estate in his books “trolling” his readers by bringing up this discrepancy.

That could be what GRRM would say, if he was making fun of an insane speculation. Timeline and all.

Would Ned abandon his sister's daughter in Essos? The blue rose in the Ice Wall? Why to pretend Jon is his son?

Edited March 22, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[Mourning Star]

53 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Would Ned abandon his sister's daughter in Essos?

I think that's exactly what he said he would do, yes.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."
"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."
"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

Obviously I'm speculating, but if Lyanna had two children, Ned might take the Stark looking one home and pretend for all the world it was his bastard, while the Targaryen colored one might be sent into exile to flee from Robert's wroth.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Frey family reunion]

45 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

That could be what GRRM would say, if he was making fun of an insane speculation. Timeline and all.

Would Ned abandon his sister's daughter in Essos? The blue rose in the Ice Wall? Why to pretend Jon is his son?

No idea what you're talking about.

[Sandy Clegg]

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Appeals to Occam's Razor or preferences of simplicity simply don't have a solid foundation when discussing this series.

This is really the single biggest schism in fandom, and I doubt it will ever be resolved until the last book is published. Personally, I'd say Byzantine doesn't go far enough. Winds and Dream are going to be mind-bending and I can't wait.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

if Lyanna had two children

Two children, nine months apart?

ETA: Beside, Jon must have been 6-9 months at Winterfell when Dany was born.

Edited March 22, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[Mourning Star]

13 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Two children, nine months apart?

Or twins, but I think 2 children 9ish months apart is possible and maybe even more likely.

I've always thought that Lyanna no longer being able to hide that she is pregnant, a few months after the Tourney of Harrenhall, is the best explanation for her sudden disappearance with Rhaegar.

In fact Elia provides us with a similar timeline. She and Rhaegar wed in 280, and Rhaenys was born later in 280, then Aegon was born near the end of 281, and that includes time for her to have 6 months of bed rest.

The Tourney of Harrenhall was at the end of 281, and Lyanna died before the end of 283.

Now is it an issue that Cat says Jon is younger than Rob, yes. But, it's an issue anyway if we are being honest, and say what you will about Cat, when it comes to Jon she seems willfully blind to me.

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."
"That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Mourning Star