I am not convinced by Lemongate

[Mourning Star]

46 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

ETA: Beside, Jon must have been 6-9 months at Winterfell when Dany was born.

I'm suggesting Dany doesn't even remember who she is, her birthday would be the least of her problems!

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Or twins, but I think 2 children 9ish months apart is possible and maybe even more likely.

The Tourney is in 281. Jon is born in 283, shortly after the sack of King Landing. Between 1 and 2 years after the tourney. Jon and Robb are new born, about the same age, when Ned return to winterfell. Dany is born in 284 during a memorable storm, 9 months after the sack. Lyanna can't be her mother.

Edited March 22, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[Mourning Star]

37 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The Tourney is in 281. Jon is born in 283, shortly after the sack of King Landing. Between 1 and 2 years after the tourney. Jon and Robb are new born, about the same age, when Ned return to winterfell.

How shortly after the sack? Ned has to travel south and raise the siege at Storms End then travel to the Tower of Joy and find Lyanna, who is dying from what could well be the result of a premature pregnancy.

I'm not using rulers and a stopwatch, but it seems like time enough to me. Two kids in two years isn't even that remarkable.

37 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Dany is born in 284 during a memorable storm, 9 months after the sack. Lyanna can't be her mother.

How do we know when Dany was born? I'm suggesting she is not the child of Rhaella, and question if a memorable storm occurred at all. Who remembers it? Honestly, the idea that it was tearing blocks off of a castle built of fused stone to sink a fleet at harbor should be laughable.

I think the better question is what really happened to the fleet!

Edited March 22, 2023 by Mourning Star

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

How do we know when Dany was born?

Whoever Dany is, Ned returned to Winterfell with the baby Lyanna gave birth and died at the ToJ. And the KG were guarding.

Edited March 22, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[Mourning Star]

7 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Whoever Dany is, Ned returned to Winterfell with the baby Lyana gave birth and died at the ToJ. And the KG were guarding.

How do we know that was the baby she died giving birth to?

I would argue that the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy meant a male heir had already been born, a female would have made Viserys still heir by male primogeniture, and they couldn't know the gender in advance.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.
He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

Ned and Cat were married in 283.

How long before Cat ever laid eyes on Jon is unclear. She certainly seemed to do her best to ignore him, in my opinion.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Mourning Star

[the trees have eyes]

23 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

So you think the plot would have to be too complicated for Dany to have a mystery to her identity, but prefer the idea there was an unnamed eccentric Dornishman with a passion for a lemon tree in Braavos?

The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite.

They still endured, unchanging, four centuries after Valyria itself had met its Doom. He looked for ruts and cracks but found only a pile of warm dung deposited by one of the horses.

I think it is literally spelled out actually. Nor do I think she is a pisswater princess.

No need at all for a random Dornishman.  Lemon trees from further south in Essos can easily be collected or planted by the rich and powerful in their pleasure gardens or parks.

Dragons melting stone, agreed.  But a castle is a large construct so even a large dragon can only deal with so much stone at a time.  Dealing with blocks and shaping or fusing them together sounds practical enough to me.

Are you arguing that Valyrian-formed stone is indestructible and eternal?  I know we're dealing with magic but I think it makes it stronger and with unique properties - see Valyrian steel - not that an entire castle is a permanent and indestructible addition to the geological record.

So the daughter of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Honestly, I don't really mind if that's true.  I think it has more logistical difficulties and inconsistencies than those you leap to point out but if you are determined to reject Dany as herself this is the better option among the lemon flavours.

19 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

That could be what GRRM would say, if he was making fun of an insane speculation. Timeline and all.

Would Ned abandon his sister's daughter in Essos? The blue rose in the Ice Wall? Why to pretend Jon is his son?

Idk why he didn't send her to Greywater Watch where Howland could keep her safe and anonymous on his floating reed castle.  Seems a better bet than hoping Robert would not have her killed along with Viserys.  It's like he put her out there unprotected for no discernible reason while he took "twin" Jon under his wing.  Doesn't seem likely to me.

[Mourning Star]

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

No need at all for a random Dornishman.  Lemon trees from further south in Essos can easily be collected or planted by the rich and powerful in their pleasure gardens or parks.

The eccentric Dornishman wasn't my suggestion, it was put forward above. However you want to cut it I think the comments about lemons not growing in northern climates like Braavos serve a purpose, and the idea that the memory is some exception seems more circuitous and less likely. But, to each their own.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Dragons melting stone, agreed.  But a castle is a large construct so even a large dragon can only deal with so much stone at a time.  Dealing with blocks and shaping or fusing them together sounds practical enough to me.

Personally I imagine something more like gravel being melted into liquid and shaped but it doesn't really matter what the details of it's construction were. The structures made of Valyrian Fused stone aren't made of blocks once complete, and there is no evidence of storm damage on Dragonstone.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Are you arguing that Valyrian-formed stone is indestructible and eternal?  I know we're dealing with magic but I think it makes it stronger and with unique properties - see Valyrian steel - not that an entire castle is a permanent and indestructible addition to the geological record.

It doesn't need to be literally indestructible for it to be unreasonable that a single storm was tearing a structure apart, when there's no similar event damaging any structure made of Valyrian fused stone.

The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

So the daughter of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Honestly, I don't really mind if that's true.  I think it has more logistical difficulties and inconsistencies than those you leap to point out but if you are determined to reject Dany as herself this is the better option among the lemon flavours.

Feel free to point out any objections out if you want, I do try to anticipate common ones.

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Idk why he didn't send her to Greywater Watch where Howland could keep her safe and anonymous on his floating reed castle.  Seems a better bet than hoping Robert would not have her killed along with Viserys.  It's like he put her out there unprotected for no discernible reason while he took "twin" Jon under his wing.  Doesn't seem likely to me.

They aren't twins in appearance, Jon looks like a Stark, Dany has hair color that would indicate parentage that would incur Roberts Wrath, similar to the Lannister kids Ned is talking about in the quote where he says what he would do.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Mourning Star

[the trees have eyes]

On 3/23/2023 at 9:09 PM, Mourning Star said:

They aren't twins in appearance, Jon looks like a Stark, Dany has hair color that would indicate parentage that would incur Roberts Wrath, similar to the Lannister kids Ned is talking about in the quote where he says what he would do.

With Howland being a hermit on a floating castle in The Neck no one would know what she looks like.  I don't buy the idea he made Lyanna a promise and then left *one of her children* for others to look after.

[Nevets]

A couple of quotes on Daenerys's birth.  This from AFFC prologue, in Oldtown.

Quote

"We speak of Rhaegar's sister, born on Dragonstone before its fall.  The one they called Daenerys."

"The Stormborn, I recall her now." Mollander lifted his tankard high.

And this from Stannis in ACOK prologue.

Quote

"Robert blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe, as if I could have stopped it." 

So I'm pretty sure that a baby was born at Dragonstone during a storm and left with Viserys.  I see no reason to believe the mother was anybody other than Rhaella.  If there's no live birth, simply say so and move on.  At that point, she's superfluous, essentially dead weight.  And if she subsequently dies, same thing.  Have a funeral and move on. No point in replacing her.  She would be more of a burden than an asset.

[BalerionTheCat]

Her brother would never fake that (AGOT DAENERYS I) :

Quote

Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.

Edited March 26, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[Mourning Star]

On 3/26/2023 at 11:17 AM, Nevets said:

A couple of quotes on Daenerys's birth.  This from AFFC prologue, in Oldtown.

And this from Stannis in ACOK prologue.

I hear what you are saying here, but they are referring to her title, which isn't the same as evidence of an actual fleet destroying storm.

On 3/26/2023 at 11:17 AM, Nevets said:

So I'm pretty sure that a baby was born at Dragonstone during a storm and left with Viserys.  I see no reason to believe the mother was anybody other than Rhaella.  If there's no live birth, simply say so and move on.  At that point, she's superfluous, essentially dead weight.  And if she subsequently dies, same thing.  Have a funeral and move on. No point in replacing her.  She would be more of a burden than an asset.

I certainly believe that Rhaella was pregnant, and it seems very likely she died in childbirth.

But, I suspect that if her child lived at all, it died very young, and Dany is not that baby.

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

On 3/26/2023 at 12:05 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

Her brother would never fake that (AGOT DAENERYS I) :

I can't tell if this is sarcasm. Viserys?

Or maybe that wasn't what Viserys held against Dany. Or maybe Viserys didn't need a good reason to be shitty to Dany and this is just her interpretation.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I can't tell if this is sarcasm. Viserys?

No sarcasm.

Viserys was certainly a pain in the ass. Had certainly a whole collection of complaints to Dany. But this one was specifically their mother's death.

[Mourning Star]

2 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

No sarcasm.

Viserys was certainly a pain in the ass. Had certainly a whole collection of complaints to Dany. But this one was specifically their mother's death.

To me it seems like Dany's vague interpretation of Viserys's abusive behavior.

I don't think we ever see Viserys actually accuse her of this.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Mourning Star

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

To me it seems like Dany's vague interpretation of Viserys's abusive behavior.

Viserys is dead. But between what the cunt would say and what Dany SAID...

Nothing vague or subject to interpretation here

"and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her".

Plus what everyone else said. You are just building argumentation from nothing here.

Edited March 27, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[Nevets]

45 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I hear what you are saying here, but they are referring to her title, which isn't the same as evidence of an actual fleet destroying storm.

I certainly believe that Rhaella was pregnant, and it seems very likely she died in childbirth.

But, I suspect that if her child lived at all, it died very young, and Dany is not that baby.

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm. Viserys?

Or maybe that wasn't what Viserys held against Dany. Or maybe Viserys didn't need a good reason to be shitty to Dany and this is just her interpretation.

Why switch her out then?  Not for a marriage 10 years down the road.  Viserys is only planning to marry her to himself.  If she's not his sister it defeats the point.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Viserys is dead. But between what the cunt would say and what Dany SAID...

Nothing vague or subject to interpretation here

"and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her".

She didn't say that, it was a thought in her head. Presumably based on his behavior, but that's unclear, which is exactly what I'm trying to point out. It's lumped in with the other comment, like the blocks torn form the castle not made of blocks, and we have reason to doubt it all.

She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.

If you are like me and expect this author to have included some fun plays on words, you might not be surprised to find out that her mother did die giving birth to her, and it was who her parents were (her birth) that Viserys never forgave her for (being higher in the line of succession).

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Plus what everyone else said. You are just building argumentation from nothing here.

I don't think I am, and hopefully one day we find out!

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Why switch her out then?  Not for a marriage 10 years down the road.  Viserys is only planning to marry her to himself.  If she's not his sister it defeats the point.

I'm not suggesting she was switched out then, the "switch" if you want to call it that would have been when she left the House with the Red Door, so around age 5.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Nevets]

7 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

She didn't say that, it was a thought in her head. Presumably based on his behavior, but that's unclear, which is exactly what I'm trying to point out. It's lumped in with the other comment, like the blocks torn form the castle not made of blocks, and we have reason to doubt it all.

She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.

If you are like me and expect this author to have included some fun plays on words, you might not be surprised to find out that her mother did die giving birth to her, and it was who her parents were (her birth) that Viserys never forgave her for (being higher in the line of succession).

I don't think I am, and hopefully one day we find out!

I'm not suggesting she was switched out then, the "switch" if you want to call it that would have been when she left the House with the Red Door, so around age 5.

Why switch her at any time?  Why not place her with the Daynes or Howland Reed, who likely know about her (being Jon's twin is the only real possibility).

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

She didn't say that, it was a thought in her head.

She didn't said it aloud. If she was speaking to someone, it could have been a lie. But to herself? It's her own thinking! Would she try to convince herself of a lie? Why?

There is no wordplay here: "Her mother had died birthing her", and for that "her brother Viserys had never forgiven her". Not because she is someone else. Some sentences are what they are!

It was 9 months after they fled KL. Lyanna was dead for near 9 months. She can't be anyone but  Rhaella's daughter.

Edited March 27, 2023 by BalerionTheCat

[Mourning Star]

21 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

She didn't said it aloud. If she was speaking to someone, it could have been a lie. But to herself? It's her own thinking! Would she try to convince herself of a lie? Why?

This story has unreliable narrators.

This is literally the whole crux of the theory, she doesn't know who she is.

She isn't trying to deceive herself, she has been lied to and raised in an abusive way that has led her to this misapprehension.

21 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

There is no wordplay here: "Her mother had died birthing her", and for that "her brother Viserys had never forgiven her". Not because she is someone else. Some sentences are what they are!

Who is her mother!?! There is no mention of Rhaella by name, one might note. Dany doesn't remember any of this, it's just the stories from Viserys.

As for word play, Lyanna died in childbirth and is, I would suggest, the woman Rhaegar died for, and Dany's mother. You notice she doesn't think "their" mother, at the end of this quote.

And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isle of Faces, they were just words to her. Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.
Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.
She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.

21 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It was 9 months after they fled KL. Lyanna was dead for near 9 months. She can't be anyone but  Rhaella's daughter.

I disagree.

Rhaella fled Kingslanding (in the morning according to Jaime, unlike Viserys's story quoted above, another discrepancy), before the sack of Kingslanding. A not insignificant amount of time had to pass between then and Ned finding the Tower of Joy, but I digress.

The whole point here is that Dany is under a misapprehension about who she is, being a few months older than she thought she was is the least of her concerns here!

Edited March 27, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Why switch her at any time?  Why not place her with the Daynes or Howland Reed, who likely know about her (being Jon's twin is the only real possibility).

I don't think Ned intended there to be any switch.

I think he probably thought the safest thing for her would be to grow up in secret, maybe somewhere like the House with the Red Door. 

As for a protector, it's hard to know. What happened to Ashara Dayne? Why didn't Ned bring Lord Dustin's bones home? What happened to the Maester of Winterfell from the time of Robert's Rebellion?

I would guess that whoever her original protector(s) were, she changed hands in what she remembers as being thrown out of the House with the Red Door, which "had not been home for him" (Viserys).

Her new "guardians" then shipped her across the narrow sea "half a hundred times" from court to court establishing her identity. My guess is that Illyrio was behind this while he plotted to put Young Griff on the throne.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Mourning Star