I am not convinced by Lemongate

[three-eyed monkey]

11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The problem with this is we know Dany didn't jump to the wrong conclusion.  Not only did she guess Asshai but she then asked Quaithe what Asshai gave her that Qarth didn't, and Quaithe answered the truth  So if she had guessed incorrectly,  Quaithe would have corrected her or simply said nothing.  Because in that case, Quaithe would not have wanted Dany to go to Asshai.   But instead Quaithe confirms Dany's guess with her answer.  You may not like it, and it may not line up where either of us think Dany is actually going, but to try and read that passage any other way isn't really an honest reading of the passage.

To say Quaithe is trying to get Dany to go to Asshai isn't really an honest reading of the passage. Dany asks what is in Asshai that she will not find in Qarth. Quaithe says the truth, which is what she is trying to guide Dany to. No doubt the truth about dragons is in Asshai, but Quaithe never asks Dany to go there.

If we're being honest in our reading then we have to accept there are two different interpretations to Quaithe's answer. You say it confirms that Dany needs to go to Asshai, but I say Quaithe is confirming that she will find no truth in Qarth. This is the context in which the conversation takes place, and we see this if we go back a few sentences.

On 4/22/2023 at 6:06 PM, Frey family reunion said:

The woman took a step backward. “You must leave this city soon, Daenerys Targaryen, or you will never be permitted to leave it at all.”

Quaithe warns Dany to leave Qarth soon or she will not be permitted to leave at all. And then finishes the exchange by telling Dany why, because she will find no truth there. Dany is the one who brings Asshai into it, because she thinks Quaithe is referring to Asshai when she says pass beneath the shadow, but I believe that assumption is wrong. Quaithe does not want Dany to go to Asshai, she wants her to find the truth, and she will not find that in Qarth.

11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So we know the apocalyptic scenario posed by Ice (or at least we think we do).  What could the apocalyptic scenario posed by fire be?  And could Dany be the danger posed by fire/desire?

Dany is the danger posed by fire. The dragons giver her the power to win the throne but also the power to turn the realm to ash and charred meat. That's the point of her story. She will embrace the power first, by waking the dragon, but ultimately she must choose between holding on to that power for her own gain or sacrificing it to save the realm.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

To say Quaithe is trying to get Dany to go to Asshai isn't really an honest reading of the passage. Dany asks what is in Asshai that she will not find in Qarth. Quaithe says the truth, which is what she is trying to guide Dany to. No doubt the truth about dragons is in Asshai, but Quaithe never asks Dany to go there.

So you’re saying that Quaithe tells Dany that she’ll find the truth in Asshai but she doesn’t want her to go there?  We’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  If you want to argue that GRRM may have changed his mind by ASOS and decided he didn’t want Dany to go to Asshai, I’d accept that argument.

But there is no honest reading of that particular passage where Quaithe isn’t confirming that she wants Dany to go to Asshai.  

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

If we're being honest in our reading then we have to accept there are two different interpretations to Quaithe's answer. You say it confirms that Dany needs to go to Asshai, but I say Quaithe is confirming that she will find no truth in Qarth. This is the context in which the conversation takes place, and we see this if we go back a few sentences.

Quaithe tells Dany she will not find truth in Qarth but she will find truth in Asshai.  You can’t leave that second part out, Dany doesn’t just ask Quaithe why she should leave Qarth, she asks Quaithe why she should leave Qarth and go to Asshai.  Quaithe tells her it’s to find truth.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Quaithe warns Dany to leave Qarth soon or she will not be permitted to leave at all. And then finishes the exchange by telling Dany why, because she will find no truth there. Dany is the one who brings Asshai into it, because she thinks Quaithe is referring to Asshai when she says pass beneath the shadow, but I believe that assumption is wrong. Quaithe does not want Dany to go to Asshai, she wants her to find the truth, and she will not find that in Qarth.

 You’re literally going into mental gymnastics to try and make this fit.  Once again, the question isn’t why should I leave Qarth, the question is why should I leave Qarth and go to Asshai.  So Quaithe tells her she will find truth in Asshai but not in Qarth.

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Dany is the danger posed by fire. The dragons giver her the power to win the throne but also the power to turn the realm to ash and charred meat. That's the point of her story. She will embrace the power first, by waking the dragon, but ultimately she must choose between holding on to that power for her own gain or sacrificing it to save the realm.

The problem is that Dany’s dragons are a lot less developed than Aegon’s and his sisters’, and a lot fewer than the dragons in the Dance.  In neither case was the realm turned to ash.  Usually, you try to keep raising the stakes, not lowering them.  So I think we have to look at Dany and ask how could she be more dangerous than any of the previous Targaryens that laid their claim to the realm with dragons.  Aegon and his sisters, couldn’t even reduce Dorne to ash despite their motivation and considerably greater fire power.

The one thing that Dany did that no Targaryen in history did (to the best of our knowledge) is hatch dragons from petrified eggs.  Which goes back to the Asshai prophecy about raising dragons from stone.  I think the reason that could be meaningful and the reason why GRRM wanted to present another realm, other than Valyria that dealt in dragons, is this could be the source of Dany’s true power and thus her true threat.  The threat of her going to Asshai to hatch dragons from their petrified eggs, might at least raise the specter of flooding the world with dragons.  Creating a true apocalyptic scenario.  

I dunno, at least it’s a thought.  It at presents a more compelling argument for having to kill Dany than the one we got in the HBO show, where Jon kills her because he decides she’s going to be a mean tyrant as opposed to a benevolent tyrant.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[three-eyed monkey]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You’re literally going into mental gymnastics to try and make this fit.

I would say the mental gymnastics is on your part, making Dany someone inserted by Doran and pushing a theory that Quaithe has something to do with an Asshai plot that isn't going to happen.

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It at presents a more compelling argument for having to kill Dany than the one we got in the HBO show, where Jon kills her because he decides she’s going to be a mean tyrant as opposed to a benevolent tyrant.

Who cares about the show? The show writers got practically every character arc wrong. That's why it fell apart as a story.

Nobody should have to kill Dany in the end, because the point of the Lightbringer prophecy is that a true sacrifice is required to bring the dawn, and the only true sacrifice is self-sacrifice. Dany is the one who must learn to understand that weapons of mass destruction and power built by those means, ruling through fear, is a problem. So if you're looking for a compelling argument for having to kill Dany, you are missing the point.

[Gilbert Green]

On 4/24/2023 at 5:48 AM, the trees have eyes said:

Right.  Like Cersei and Jaime never planned for Robert to find out the truth but the whole Realm did...

They did it.  You are trying to argue that because liars are sometimes exposed, therefore deceptions are never perpetrated.  And how would such deceptions normally be exposed?  it is not as though they have genetic testing.

On 4/24/2023 at 5:48 AM, the trees have eyes said:

The point about the Feudal system is not to taint your own blood, which is exactly what allowing a fraud to wear your own colours and use your family name does. 

Viserys is not planning to marry Dany's half-Dothraki daughter.  Even if Dany is real, he would not do that.  He is a blood purist.

On 4/24/2023 at 5:48 AM, the trees have eyes said:

And all you do is risk creating a rival claimant, something the feudal system was notoriously averse to doing.

Viserys is impatient and he wants his army NOW.  This is what led to his death.  Remember?  And you think he should be worrying about whether some half-Dothraki barbarian will be a "rival claimant" 15-20 years down the line.

On 4/24/2023 at 5:48 AM, the trees have eyes said:

If Dany died at birth on Dragonstone there is nothing Viserys, a child at the time, and Illyrio, across the Narrow Sea and completely unconnected to events, can do. 

No-one in this thread has hypothesized that the real Dany died at birth on Dragonstone.

[Frey family reunion]

On 4/24/2023 at 1:15 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

I would say the mental gymnastics is on your part, making Dany someone inserted by Doran and pushing a theory that Quaithe has something to do with an Asshai plot that isn't going to happen.

  Just arguing it's a possibility.  I'm not suggesting that Dany is going to go to Asshai, I'm suggesting that the threat of Dany going to Asshai may the reason GRRM has created Asshai, made it the original location of the petrified eggs, made it the original land of dragons, and inserted it in Bran's vision which followed Dany's journey fairly closely up until then.  Dany also hatched the eggs with the help of blood magic and shadowbinding from a witch.  Which is also the magic practiced in Asshai.  If someone close to Dany feels like they have to kill her, there should be a good reason for it.  And if Dany ends up being spurned by Westeros, and turns instead to her role as Mother of Dragons, then the threat of Dany going to Asshai to wake thousands of dragons, may be sufficient motivation.  

On 4/24/2023 at 1:15 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

Who cares about the show? The show writers got practically every character arc wrong. That's why it fell apart as a story.

Nobody should have to kill Dany in the end, because the point of the Lightbringer prophecy is that a true sacrifice is required to bring the dawn, and the only true sacrifice is self-sacrifice. Dany is the one who must learn to understand that weapons of mass destruction and power built by those means, ruling through fear, is a problem. So if you're looking for a compelling argument for having to kill Dany, you are missing the point.

Don't get me wrong, I hated the show after it went past the books (and even slightly before then).  But I can't ignore the possibility that the hack writers at HBO were screwing up an outline of the ending of the story given to them by George.  I know that you have an ending you want to see happen, but it's certainly possible that you won't get what you're hoping for.  So yes, if you were writing the end of the series then I'd be missing the point.  But since you're not, I have to at least acknowledge the possibility that like the show, someone close to Dany feels like they are going to have to kill her.  If that's the case, hopefully it will be for a better reason than the one we got in the show.

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 4/24/2023 at 4:48 AM, the trees have eyes said:

I have to admit I'm having a hard time following what you are saying or what exactly your version of the theory is but my point is that fakes are anathema to the Feudal System as they subvert the basis on which it works.  No "Targ loyalists" would think on the death of baby Dany let's swap in a fake and pretend: this includes Darry, the one person who actually has custody of the child.  The Martells and Braavosi aren't "Targ loyalists", they are the duped allies if they don't know she is fake or the cynical opportunists if they do, either way they are not scions of the Targaryen family allegedly using cuckoos to try to prolong themselves.

My point is that the feudal system is no longer in play for Darry and the two children under his protection.  They are no longer part of a "Targaryen family".  The Targaryens family as a political idea is gone, and we're left with a Targaryen idealist and two refugees living as the guests of various foreigners who have their own agenda.

So we're not going to see marriage arrangements and proposals like we would if the Targaryens were back in Westeros as a politically powerful family.  

But for the sake of argument let's look at Willem Darry's possible motivations to take part in a child swap.  Presumably he's bought into the idea of Targaryen exceptionalism.  That Targaryens are meant for great things.  So he does what he has to do to try and get Viserys back on the Iron Throne.  However, the principal ally he has found is Dorne, and they required that Viserys come up with his own army.  Darry would know that the only possible coin that Viserys has to purchase an army would be using his sister.    And we see what happens to Dany in the story.  She is brought from foreign city to foreign, city often living in the streets, while Viserys begs for alliances, presumably using Dany as coin.  Finally she is sold off to a barbarian where the person who facilitated the deal doesn't even think Dany will survive the experience.

Is this the type of future that Darry would want for the last Targaryen princess?  Would he want to sacrifice the last Targaryen daughter to help the last Targaryen son.  Or would he want to see the possibility for a greater future for both children?

If so, perhaps Darry comes up with a proposal.  If the last Targaryen princess is taken in by one of the conspirators, and protected and given the lifestyle she deserves, then Darry and Viserys will take a replacement, use her to dupe someone into giving them an army, and once their utility is over and Viserys takes his throne, they will unveil the true Targaryen princess, and Viserys and Dorne  will vouch for her.  And since it was a foreign entity that they duped, they won't anger any of the Westerosi political families that they have allied themselves with.

The second person that has to be taken into account is Viserys.  Since Viserys is still fairly young at this time, he apparently isn't made aware of the marriage alliance that Darry signs with Dorne.  Maybe one of the reasons that he isn't made aware of it, is because he might have balked at the idea of marrying Arianne.  Remember how Viserys tells Dany about his views on Targaryen exceptionalism.  That Targaryens were meant to marry each other because they had to keep their bloodline pure.  Which is why Dany is so puzzled when they sell her to Khal Drogo, and Viserys doesn't seem the least conflicted about the arrangement.

A possible reason is that Viserys knows that Dany isn't really his sister.  And since Viserys is needed to sell a fake sister to a third party, they need his cooperation.  Perhaps one of the ways to facilitate that, is to allow Viserys to believe that his true sister is still out there and he will be reunited with her when he takes the Iron Throne.  Which is why he continues to hold on to the belief that the only one worthy of him to marry is his own blood, yet he treats Dany with such contempt, and is apparently eager to sell his last blood relative off to a dirty barbiarian.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[three-eyed monkey]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I know that you have an ending you want to see happen, but it's certainly possible that you won't get what you're hoping for.

There is no particular ending I want to see happen. What I want has nothing to do with trying to interpret someone else's story. I'm happy to leave the story to GRRM and just hope we do get an ending.

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I'm happy to leave the story to GRRM and just hope we do get an ending.

On that, we can both agree.

[csuszka1948]

On 4/20/2023 at 6:33 PM, Mourning Star said:

 

Dany is even a northern name.

 

 

Dany is not a Northern name, the child of Aegon and Naerys Targaryen was called Daenerys.

On 4/20/2023 at 6:33 PM, Mourning Star said:

Ya, it kind of does though.

It means the past she has been told is a lie.

 

No, it doesn't. It means her memories are faulty. We saw this happening with Sansa (unkiss), but it's incomprehensible that the same happened to Dany?

 

There are a few reasons why this theory of bollocks:

1) It makes absolutely no sense that Ned Stark would ever hand her sister's child to Targaryen loyalists and then refuse to care about her for 15 years, it's completely inconsistent with his characterization. If he felt Dany's looks put her into danger, he had the option to ask Howland Reed to foster her.

 

2) A child called Daenerys had to be born on the day the storm destroyed the Targaryen fleet. There were servants in Dragonstone, some of whom seen the pregnancy of the queen and probably witnessed the birth of the child, and they would have told it to Stannis.

If the birth of Daenerys Stormborn was ever in doubt, Ser Kevan would call her a pretender, just like he does with Aegon.

Therefore, the theory is only true if a switch happened - the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys died at a convenient time so that the child of Rhaegar&Lyanna can take her place. However, this would require a foresight that the baby would die, which is again an impossibility.

3) Such a switch would be noticed by Viserys and there is no way the character we are introduced in AGOT can keep his mouth shut about it for years, even when drunk.

4) It's confusing and redundant. We already have one of our main characters a secret son of Rhaegar+Lyanna, now we would have another main character realise that she is not who she thinks, but the secret daughter of Rhaegar+Lyanna?

 

 

On 4/20/2023 at 6:33 PM, Mourning Star said:

lol… “remember who you are”

 

Remember who you are... a Targaryen, a dragon. This is about her mistake in chaining and locking up her dragons in fear of herself, that she has to reclaim her identity as a Targaryen and a dragonrider, taming Drogon (and her inner dragon).

[csuszka1948]

On 4/24/2023 at 8:15 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

 

Nobody should have to kill Dany in the end, because the point of the Lightbringer prophecy is that a true sacrifice is required to bring the dawn, and the only true sacrifice is self-sacrifice. Dany is the one who must learn to understand that weapons of mass destruction and power built by those means, ruling through fear, is a problem. So if you're looking for a compelling argument for having to kill Dany, you are missing the point.

 

 

 

What does she have to learn about it? When was Dany ruling through fear?

It seems that she spent the entire ADWD doing the opposite: locking away her 'nuclear weapons' - despite the advantage they posed in defending the city and being symbols of freedom - and being overly concerned with pleasing everyone. 

 

I think what she has to learn that being a Targaryen ('the last dragon') doesn't mean that she must retake the Iron Throne, that she should set aside her perceived duty and do the right thing.

Edited June 22, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

On 3/22/2023 at 11:06 PM, Mourning Star said:

Or twins, but I think 2 children 9ish months apart is possible and maybe even more likely.

I've always thought that Lyanna no longer being able to hide that she is pregnant, a few months after the Tourney of Harrenhall, is the best explanation for her sudden disappearance with Rhaegar.

In fact Elia provides us with a similar timeline. She and Rhaegar wed in 280, and Rhaenys was born later in 280, then Aegon was born near the end of 281, and that includes time for her to have 6 months of bed rest.

The Tourney of Harrenhall was at the end of 281, and Lyanna died before the end of 283.

Now is it an issue that Cat says Jon is younger than Rob, yes. But, it's an issue anyway if we are being honest, and say what you will about Cat, when it comes to Jon she seems willfully blind to me

 

Yes, because Master Luwin and Cat somehow didn't notice that Jon is a toddler and not a baby??? This seems a much bigger issue to me than what you propose. GRRM is always fuzzy with the timeline of the Rebellion.

Rhaegar staying in the tower even after Lyanna has gotten pregnant also makes little sense based on what we know of him.

[csuszka1948]

On 3/21/2023 at 9:16 PM, Mourning Star said:

As we know it wouldn’t be an unreasonable paranoia, since Robert eventually does send hired knives.

Again, no one discrepancy is difficult to explain away.

But, Dany also comments for the readers benefit that she has never seen them, and the reader gets confirmation from Robert himself that he had not sent assassins previously.

I’ve wondered the same. However, there are comments from Dany’s chapters, right from the start, which I think indicate to the reader that they should be suspicious, and that there was an intended twist planned for Dany’s past from the start. When you go back and read her early chapters they are thick with these sorts of things.

And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not.

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. 

A princess, Dany thought. She had forgotten what that was like. Perhaps she had never really known.

All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.

All Dany 1 GoT

Even the fact that she thinks of herself as Dany, and not Daenerys is a red flag imo.

 

 

 

I don't think it's a red flag when Viserys (and probably Ser Willem), the constant (two constants) in her life called her Dany.

On 3/21/2023 at 9:16 PM, Mourning Star said:

And what I’ve listed here is really just a part of the reason I think there’s something to Lemongate. Once you start looking, I think there are a lot of subtle clues that Dany is not who she thinks she is.

No squall could frighten Dany, though. Daenerys Stormborn, she was called, for she had come howling into the world on distant Dragonstone as the greatest storm in the memory of Westeros howled outside, a storm so fierce that it ripped gargoyles from the castle walls and smashed her father's fleet to kindling.

But, we see from Cressen:

The maester did not believe in omens. And yet . . . old as he was, Cressen had never seen a comet half so bright, nor yet that color, that terrible color, the color of blood and flame and sunsets. He wondered if his gargoyles had ever seen its like. They had been here so much longer than he had, and would still be here long after he was gone. If stone tongues could speak .

And we get this fun bit from Jaime:

Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar's infant son Aegon, still in Maegor's with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought.

As far as I know, nobody in Westeros even mentions the storm that supposedly sank the Targaryen fleet.

 

 

 

1) Dany doesn't know exactly how she had come into the world, only the stories Viserys has told her. Why is it not conceivable that Viserys would remember (or at least tell Dany) stone gargoyles ripped apart amidst the greatest storm he had ever seen? It's also possible that a few of the gargoyles were indeed ripped off.

2) In the ADWD Epilogue, Daenerys Stormborn as a possible threat is mentioned. In Pentos, she is announced as Daenerys Stormborn.

If the storm didn't exist, why wouldn't anybody point out the inconsistency in her naming and say that she is a pretender? We see the opposite happening: the members of the Small Council say that 'nobody can doubt her claim'.

Again, it makes zero sense if such a storm didn't happen. The rational explanation is that nobody mentions the storm because it's irrelevant to current events and that nobody doubts Dany's identity because the servants in Dragonstone (who were definitely questioned after Ser Willem secreted the children away) confirmed that Rhaella was indeed pregnant, a daughter was born to her amidst the storm and the birth killed her.

On 3/21/2023 at 9:16 PM, Mourning Star said:

And Dragons do not howl, wolves do.

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

Fear is for the darkness, for cold winter when the white winds blow.

 

 

 

Because Dany's dream after her miscarriage is a parallel to Bran's dream after falling. They both see the coldness (Others, heart of winter) and barely manage to escape and wake up.

Edited June 22, 2023 by csuszka1948

[csuszka1948]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:03 PM, Mourning Star said:

I hear what you are saying here, but they are referring to her title, which isn't the same as evidence of an actual fleet destroying storm.

 

 

I am sorry, but that's just ridiculous. Her title is Stormborn because she was born during a big storm, and (as we know from Stannis) she was secreted away after that. If such a storm didn't exist, nobody would call her Stormborn, they would laugh out the idea that she is calling herself by that title. 

 

The rational explanation is that the storm did indeed happen and nobody talks about it because it's irrelevant to the life of anyone other than Dany. It also nicely explains how was the Targaryen fleet so easily destroyed by Stannis.

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Dany is not a Northern name, the child of Aegon and Naerys Targaryen was called Daenerys.

The only other Danny/Dany in the series is Danny Flint. 

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

No, it doesn't. It means her memories are faulty. We saw this happening with Sansa (unkiss), but it's incomprehensible that the same happened to Dany?

We don’t have to rely on Dany’s memories alone. We know from Robert that there were no hired knives, we know from Cressen that Dragonstone isn’t made of blocks nor were they torn off in a storm.

I trust Dany’s memories more than I trust Viserys.

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

There are a few reasons why this theory of bollocks:

1) It makes absolutely no sense that Ned Stark would ever hand her sister's child to Targaryen loyalists and then refuse to care about her for 15 years, it's completely inconsistent with his characterization. If he felt Dany's looks put her into danger, he had the option to ask Howland Reed to foster her.

Did you read the thread?

Ned’s own words dispute your assessment.

If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

2) A child called Daenerys had to be born on the day the storm destroyed the Targaryen fleet. There were servants in Dragonstone, some of whom seen the pregnancy of the queen and probably witnessed the birth of the child, and they would have told it to Stannis.

There is no evidence of a storm or that a fleet was destroyed. There is no evidence of these servants you mention.

So I have no idea what you mean.

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

If the birth of Daenerys Stormborn was ever in doubt, Ser Kevan would call her a pretender, just like he does with Aegon.

Why? No bloody baby in a cloak was presented to him and called Dany.

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Therefore, the theory is only true if a switch happened - the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys died at a convenient time so that the child of Rhaegar&Lyanna can take her place. However, this would require a foresight that the baby would die, which is again an impossibility.

I disagree, I think Dany had a few years in the House with the Red door before anyone started claiming she was the daughter of Aerys.

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

3) Such a switch would be noticed by Viserys and there is no way the character we are introduced in AGOT can keep his mouth shut about it for years, even when drunk.

He doesn’t, he constantly abuses Dany. In fact he’s the first one to ask her if she remembers who she is.

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

4) It's confusing and redundant. We already have one of our main characters a secret son of Rhaegar+Lyanna, now we would have another main character realise that she is not who she thinks, but the secret daughter of Rhaegar+Lyanna?

Just wait until you get to Tyrion.

Three heads has the dragon.

2 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

Remember who you are... a Targaryen, a dragon. This is about her mistake in chaining and locking up her dragons in fear of herself, that she has to reclaim her identity as a Targaryen and a dragonrider, taming Drogon (and her inner dragon).

At what point does it seem like Dany has forgotten about being a Targaryen? LOL, she’s the mother of dragons.

Remember the Undying.

But, you’re not saying anything new that hasn’t already been said on this thread. Read it and make up your own mind, hopefully one day we get more of the story.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

I am sorry, but that's just ridiculous. Her title is Stormborn because she was born during a big storm, and (as we know from Stannis) she was secreted away after that. If such a storm didn't exist, nobody would call her Stormborn, they would laugh out the idea that she is calling herself by that title. 

When does Stannis mention a storm?

Her title is because that’s how she’s been announced in the court of every Free City for years.

The title was brought back to Westeros with news of Dany, they didn’t make it up and mail her the title in exile.

 

How did Darry sail away if the fleet was destroyed by blocks torn from the castle (that isn’t made of blocks but fused stone and has stood for centuries)? Doesn’t even make sense.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

Yes, because Master Luwin and Cat somehow didn't notice that Jon is a toddler and not a baby??? This seems a much bigger issue to me than what you propose. GRRM is always fuzzy with the timeline of the Rebellion.

Not sure GRRM is an expert on babies either.

It’s easy for me to believe Cat is willfully blind when it comes to Jon.

Its not clear to me that Luwin (and Benjen) didn’t know something:

Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

"That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

Rhaegar staying in the tower even after Lyanna has gotten pregnant also makes little sense based on what we know of him.

Not sure why you think that, I think Rhaegar actually loved Lyanna, wild I know… lol

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

I don't think it's a red flag when Viserys (and probably Ser Willem), the constant (two constants) in her life called her Dany.

When does Ser Willem call her Dany?

He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady,"

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

1) Dany doesn't know exactly how she had come into the world, only the stories Viserys has told her. Why is it not conceivable that Viserys would remember (or at least tell Dany) stone gargoyles ripped apart amidst the greatest storm he had ever seen? It's also possible that a few of the gargoyles were indeed ripped off.

It is not possible. The fused stone structures of Valyria don’t get blown down… and we even get a first hand account of Dragonstone and the gargoyles.

He wondered if his gargoyles had ever seen its like. They had been hereso much longer than he had, and would still be herelong after he was gone. If stone tongues could speak . . .

Such folly. He leaned against the battlement, the sea crashing beneath him, the black stone rough beneath his fingers.

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

2) In the ADWD Epilogue, Daenerys Stormborn as a possible threat is mentioned. In Pentos, she is announced as Daenerys Stormborn.

She is announced in Essos by a title in every court then news of her travels back to Westeros including the title.

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

If the storm didn't exist, why wouldn't anybody point out the inconsistency in her naming and say that she is a pretender? We see the opposite happening: the members of the Small Council say that 'nobody can doubt her claim'.

Doesn’t really matter if there was just some storm, it seems like there are a lot of storms around Dragonstone.

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

Again, it makes zero sense if such a storm didn't happen. The rational explanation is that nobody mentions the storm because it's irrelevant to current events and that nobody doubts Dany's identity because the servants in Dragonstone (who were definitely questioned after Ser Willem secreted the children away) confirmed that Rhaella was indeed pregnant, a daughter was born to her amidst the storm and the birth killed her.

What servants? Do they have names? Is there some account of this event besides the one told to Dany?

Why don’t the servants mention the baby swap for the pisswater prince?

Why don’t the servants talk about Jon’s parentage?

Feel free to quote to the text.

1 hour ago, csuszka1948 said:

Because Dany's dream after her miscarriage is a parallel to Bran's dream after falling. They both see the coldness (Others, heart of winter) and barely manage to escape and wake up.

I agree there are some great parallels between the Bran and Dany stories/dreams. I disagree with your interpretation.
Dragons don’t howl. At no point in the series will you find a reference to dragons howling. Wolves howl.

Alone in the darkness is a reference to Ned’s explanation of the Stark sigil.

"The hard cruel times," her father said. "We tasted them on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you've never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya."

"The direwolf," she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

[csuszka1948]

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

The only other Danny/Dany in the series is Danny Flint. 

 

Danny Flint's name has two n's, not one. Dany is a perfectly understandable nickname to Daenerys, which is an (uncommon) Targaryen girl name.

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

We don’t have to rely on Dany’s memories alone. We know from Robert that there were no hired knives, we know from Cressen that Dragonstone isn’t made of blocks nor were they torn off in a storm.

I trust Dany’s memories more than I trust Viserys.

 

The 'blocks torn off in a storm' aren't Dany's memory (she obviously doesn't remember the exact circumstances of her birth, nobody does), they are a story she was told by Viserys. Similarly, the hired knives are a story told by Viserys and the poisoning attempt probably convinces Dany that they did indeed exist.

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Did you read the thread?

Ned’s own words dispute your assessment.

If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities

There is no evidence of a storm or that a fleet was destroyed. There is no evidence of these servants you mention.

So I have no idea what you mean.

 

1) No, they don't dispute it. Ned is saying this to Cersei because Cersei herself is guilty and once her guilt becomes known she and her children will be hunted down and they will be searched in every rook of the Seven Kingdoms, they cannot hide there.

In contrast, Ned could easily give a Valyrian looking child for Howland Reed to foster in Greywater Watch. His secret - unlike Cersei's - isn't made public, nobody would search for the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna in Greywater Watch because nobody knows about her existence!!!

 

2) We have evidence that a storm happened - because if it didn't, everybody would laugh at Daenerys calling herself Stormborn, which indicates that she was born amidst a stone. It also explains why Stannis makes no mention of an actual naval battle taking place.

In addition, the Undying ones call her 'child of the storm' and everyone in Essos is calling her Stormborn. 

 

We have indirect evidence of those servants - it's completely logical that Stannis would question them after the escape of Rhaella's children, and they are the only people who could have told Stannis that Ser Willam secreted out Viserys and the 'babe'.

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Why? No bloody baby in a cloak was presented to him and called Dany.

 

They are literally saying that NOBODY can doubt her claim. If 'Daenerys Stormborn' wasn't born in a storm, plenty would doubt her claim. It makes no bloody sense to call her Stormborn if a storm didn't happen when she was born. 

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I disagree, I think Dany had a few years in the House with the Red door before anyone started claiming she was the daughter of Aerys.

 

Yes, and no one who hosted Willam Darry and Viserys noticed that Viserys doesn't have a sister.

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

He doesn’t, he constantly abuses Dany. In fact he’s the first one to ask her if she remembers who she is.

 

He absolutely does. He is very often drunk and still never blabbed out to Dany or anyone else that Daenerys is not a Targaryen just the daughter of a Lyseni whore or a slave.

Viserys as presented in AGOT couldn't maintain such a lie for even a month, not even years.

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Just wait until you get to Tyrion.

 

Tyrion isn't a Targaryen. He was nemed by Tywin, and GRRM told us that he was named by his father:

Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned. - GRRM

GRRM might have planned Tyrion Targaryen in AGOT (with him dreaming about dragons, just like Jon), but there are plenty of hints that he dropped it since then.

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Three heads has the dragon.

 

Yes, the dream/prophecy is about a three-headed dragon. It's not necessarily three dragonriders (that's just the way Aegon naturally interpreted it, since he had two sisters) it's three 'heads' that work in unison, three 'dragon heads' who trust and can rely on each other fully, and Quaithe warned Dany that she cannot trust Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion or Young Griff, and she definitely won't trust Euron.

That leaves Jon as the only potential dragonrider she can fully trust and can form another head, and the third dragon head is likely Drogon himself (the reincarnation of Drogo, who was the only person Dany trusted fully): 

16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

At what point does it seem like Dany has forgotten about being a Targaryen? LOL, she’s the mother of dragons.

 

When she has chained and locked up her dragons, when she has called them monsters, when she has let Hizdahr hold court. Like her entire ADWD arc is about forgetting about being a dragon and giving up more and more for the sake of an unjust peace, because she fears from unleashing her dragons. Her last two chapters she reclaims her 'dragon' identity.

[csuszka1948]

32 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

When does Stannis mention a storm?

 

 

Why would he think it important to mention it? It's not important to him, what's important is that William Darry has smuggled out Dany and Viserys before he had reached the island.

However, the fact that he never mentions that he needed to fight a naval battle (which would be his first real naval battle in his life) against the Targaryens is definitely pointing towards the storm being real:

“I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm’s End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?”

32 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Her title is because that’s how she’s been announced in the court of every Free City for years.

The title was brought back to Westeros with news of Dany, they didn’t make it up and mail her the title in exile.

 

 

Why would be she announced as Stormborn in the Free Cities if she wasn't actually born during a storm? Why would anyone come up with such a title, what would they gain from such a lie? Why would the Undying ones call her 'child of the storm'?

Again, this makes no sense whatsoever. Anyone could point out the fact that such a storm (and a storm that destroyed the Targaryen fleet is definitely a notable one that people would remember) didn't happen and her title is fake. The spies of Robert or Varys would definitely bring news that the Targaryen princess is calling herself Stormborn and it would be laughed out.

29 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

How did Darry sail away if the fleet was destroyed by blocks torn from the castle (that isn’t made of blocks but fused stone and has stood for centuries)? Doesn’t even make sense.

 

Darry sailed away one or two days (or perhaps a week or two) AFTER the storm has happened, just before the garrison handed over the Targaryens to the Baratheons.

As for the 'blocks torn from the castle', that's a story Viserys told Dany, and probably an exaggeration. I don't even see why you think it an inconsistency that points towards something secret.

[csuszka1948]

41 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Not sure GRRM is an expert on babies either.

It’s easy for me to believe Cat is willfully blind when it comes to Jon.

 

Sorry, it's not easy to believe that Cat is blind to the fact that her husband's bastard is actually a year older than Robb, because it's something that would improve Jon's claim (and chance to steal WF in her eyes) drastically.

41 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Not sure why you think that, I think Rhaegar actually loved Lyanna, wild I know… lol

 

Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but he was also motivated by prophecy, wanting Lyanna to be the mother of his third child, the third head of the dragon. 

It makes no sense that he would impregnate her again when her brother and father have been killed and the country is in war, when he would have the option of overthrowing his father (and that's definitely what Lyanna would want) before the war spirals further out of control (as it happened).