I am not convinced by Lemongate

[kissdbyfire]

Well, Gilly’s baby was a baby for years and years…

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Now I know memories are a tricky business as they are not always reliable. Much has been made of how Daenerys' memory of the Big House with the Red Door being in Braavos is wrong and it was actually in Dorne. I just don't feel the evidence is strong enough. As far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong) the theory is that because of the presence of a lemon tree in Daenerys' memories of being in Braavos, this means she was not actually in Braavos but in Dorne, because lemon trees don't grow in Braavos. I have two issues:

1. There is nothing to say Lemon trees could not grow in Braavos if imported. Trees are rare in Braavos but they are there:

And we know Daenerys was in a big house, presumably the kind of house a wealthy person would have, since it was big and they could afford servants. Furthermore, it is said that they were hosted by wealthy merchants and so on.

So if they didn't have a garden with a lemon tree in their own house, there's no reason why Daenerys couldn't have seen it in someone else's house. So I don't see why it would be impossible for her to encounter a lemon tree while staying somewhere like that in Braavos. If it wasn't in Braavos then it could have been somewhere else. Doesn't mean it was Dorne, because -

2. There is nothing that suggests lemons only grow in Dorne. Lemons are mentioned in conjunction with Dorne a lot, so we know they are grown there, but there is zero evidence that Dorne is the only place where they can grow and they can't grow anywhere else. In fact, we know they aren't exclusive to Dorne, because they are said to grow in Meereeen:

So taking they above into account I just do not see how lemon tree = actually in Dorne. Now I am not saying it is guaranteed she was in Braavos either but I don't have an issue if she was because I don't see a problem with a lemon tree being in Braavos. And for all this discussion of lemon trees we might have missed this other clue here. From Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying:

It's not a question of bringing a lemon tree to Braavos, it's getting it to survive and thrive in such a climate. If they could grow in Braavos, then they should be common throughout the southern half of Westeros, but they're not. You could bring a lemon tree from Florida to New York, but it won't survive there either unless it's in some kind of controlled environment, and there is nothing to suggest that the house with the red door was inside a greenhouse so large that Dany did not notice it, or that this engineering marvel was not widely mentioned as one of the wonders of the world, or why anyone would think to build a home in such a hothouse.

But you're right that Dorne would not be the only place for the house with the red door. The wine merchant in Vaes Dothrak thought her accent was Tyroshi, which suggests she was in Tyrosh during her formative language years. So my vote is that the house and the lemon tree are in Tyrosh.

[Alester Florent]

14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But you're right that Dorne would not be the only place for the house with the red door. The wine merchant in Vaes Dothrak thought her accent was Tyroshi, which suggests she was in Tyrosh during her formative language years. So my vote is that the house and the lemon tree are in Tyrosh.

Or just that Braavos and Tyrosh may have similar accents, and/or that the wine merchant is bad at distinguising them. Or that the servants in the house with the red door were Tyroshi. Or that he was deliberately putting on a show of mistaking her accent to suggest he didn't know who she was, thereby lowering her guard. Do we have any other instances of her accent being called Tyroshi?

[three-eyed monkey]

25 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Or just that Braavos and Tyrosh may have similar accents, and/or that the wine merchant is bad at distinguising them. Or that the servants in the house with the red door were Tyroshi. Or that he was deliberately putting on a show of mistaking her accent to suggest he didn't know who she was, thereby lowering her guard. Do we have any other instances of her accent being called Tyroshi?

Dany herself. She replies that her accent may be Tyroshi and her garb Dothraki, but she is from Westeros.

 

[Lord Varys]

Lemongate is just a nonsensical theory.

[John Suburbs]

On 3/1/2023 at 10:49 AM, Alester Florent said:

Or just that Braavos and Tyrosh may have similar accents, and/or that the wine merchant is bad at distinguising them. Or that the servants in the house with the red door were Tyroshi. Or that he was deliberately putting on a show of mistaking her accent to suggest he didn't know who she was, thereby lowering her guard. Do we have any other instances of her accent being called Tyroshi?

Sure, it could be all kinds of things. But none of those things have been suggested in the text, so all we have to go on is that the wine merchant pegged her accent as Tyroshi. It's also reasonable to assume that he's been all over the free cities, otherwise he would not be able to distinguish one accent from another, and that Dany's accent would have emerged in the period where her language patterns became established, which would coincide with her time at the house with the red door. She also has fond memories of the honeyfinger cakes in the Tyroshi bazaars.

No one else says Dany has a Tyroshi accent, but several characters have remarked on its distinctness in other people. Chett called it a "wet, girly tongue", and Tyrion thought the accent of the Tyroshi singer at Joffrey's wedding was ludicrous. Nobody ever said that about anyone from Braavos. Plus, Tyrosh and Braavos are pretty far from each other, so it's possible but highly unlikely that their accents would be similar.

So given that we can pretty much rule out Braavos as a suitable habitat for citrus trees, then Tyrosh would be a more likely candidate than Dorne. Tyrosh at least has something to back it up.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

I found this to be a nice summary of the various permutations of Lemongate. There are quite a few out there, so it's important to recognize that fact, and to specify what it is that you are for, against, or neutral toward.

 

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/28/2023 at 5:14 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

This is the source of the whole damned thing if you ask me. The house with the lemon tree was originally set in Tyrosh.

Personally, I think Raff's line about orange trees in the Mercy chapter is GRRM trolling the lemongaters.

If he’s trolling, he’s being very dedicated with it:

Quote

Q: Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn’t really grow in Braavos’ cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to future revelations about Dany’s past?  Thank you so much.

GRRM: Very perceptive of you.

Yes, it does point to … well, that would be telling.

It’s odd that the author would spend so much valuable real estate in his books “trolling” his readers by bringing up this discrepancy.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Q: Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn’t really grow in Braavos’ cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to future revelations about Dany’s past?  Thank you so much.

GRRM: Very perceptive of you.

Yes, it does point to the house where she stayed being the Sealord’s palace.

 

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

 

Yea, that’s not what he said.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, that’s not what he said.

I know it’s not, but only the bolded, which I wrote to show one example of something he might have said if he’d finished the sentence.

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I know it’s not, but only the bolded, which I wrote to show one example of something he might have said if he’d finished the sentence.

This discussion reminds me of an amusing image that got posted, (a while back) showing a five year old Dany frollicking with a velociraptor under a lemon tree.

Edited March 2 by Frey family reunion

[Corvo the Crow]

On 3/1/2023 at 12:29 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Now I know memories are a tricky business as they are not always reliable. Much has been made of how Daenerys' memory of the Big House with the Red Door being in Braavos is wrong and it was actually in Dorne. I just don't feel the evidence is strong enough. As far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong) the theory is that because of the presence of a lemon tree in Daenerys' memories of being in Braavos, this means she was not actually in Braavos but in Dorne, because lemon trees don't grow in Braavos. I have two issues:

1. There is nothing to say Lemon trees could not grow in Braavos if imported. Trees are rare in Braavos but they are there:

And we know Daenerys was in a big house, presumably the kind of house a wealthy person would have, since it was big and they could afford servants. Furthermore, it is said that they were hosted by wealthy merchants and so on.

So if they didn't have a garden with a lemon tree in their own house, there's no reason why Daenerys couldn't have seen it in someone else's house. So I don't see why it would be impossible for her to encounter a lemon tree while staying somewhere like that in Braavos. If it wasn't in Braavos then it could have been somewhere else. Doesn't mean it was Dorne, because -

2. There is nothing that suggests lemons only grow in Dorne. Lemons are mentioned in conjunction with Dorne a lot, so we know they are grown there, but there is zero evidence that Dorne is the only place where they can grow and they can't grow anywhere else. In fact, we know they aren't exclusive to Dorne, because they are said to grow in Meereeen:

So taking they above into account I just do not see how lemon tree = actually in Dorne. Now I am not saying it is guaranteed she was in Braavos either but I don't have an issue if she was because I don't see a problem with a lemon tree being in Braavos. And for all this discussion of lemon trees we might have missed this other clue here. From Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying:

You figured Alleras is Sarella but couldn't figure this out? Shame on you sweet Nerevar Peaches. Just move around the letters a bit and what do you get? Aemon gelt. Obviously Aemon is non other than our Maester Aemon. Now why was he, a maester sworn to celibacy, gelded? For that we have to look at some others who are sworn to celibacy, like King's Guards. Remember the king's guard that fathered many children and gelded for it?

So house with the Red door was red keep, Maester Aemon got Rhaegar pregnant and Dany was born. Easy peasy.

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Shame on you sweet Nerevar

https://youtu.be/iR-K2rUP86M

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

https://youtu.be/iR-K2rUP86M

I love this song, much better than True Power though it's also not bad. Check out Glarthir if you haven't which may be the best young scrolls song so far. 

Forgot about Maiq, which beats them all because it also has Todd Howard  

Edited March 3 by Corvo the Crow

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Check out Glarthir if you haven't which may be the best young scrolls song so far. 

Saw that and it was very good. Glarthir is right. But I also wish he wouldn't run after you because I can't relax in Skingrad anymore...

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Saw that and it was very good. Glarthir is right. But I also wish he wouldn't run after you because I can't relax in Skingrad anymore...

Just go to Salmo’s bakery and get a sweetroll. You’ll feel like the count himself

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Just go to Salmo’s bakery and get a sweetroll. You’ll feel like the count himself

Until you give Salmo bread and the game crashes.

[the trees have eyes]

On 2/28/2023 at 9:56 PM, Mourning Star said:

Dany’s old guardian’s sickness is described as “the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor” in contrast to Aemon’s time sick in Braavos where they can’t keep him warm.

The cycle of the seasons is irregular in Planetos but we are now in Autumn so Braavos is colder than it would be in Summer.  The climate is not fixed all "year" round and the seasonal swings are greater the further north you go.

It's entirely possible that Dany spent a few summer years in Braavos and that Willem Darry, who died of a wasting sickness in a hot Summer, presented very differently to Aemon, who died of extreme old age in a dank Autumn.

The author changing his mind between Tyrosh and Braavos is the most likely cause of the discrepancy / inconsistency theories.

[Crona]

I never looked into the Lemongate stuff, so I have no skin it.

But in regards to Dany living with Sealord of Braavos, what would be the point of hiding it? The quote posted by @Frey family reunion, when was that quote made?

Q: Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn’t really grow in Braavos’ cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to future revelations about Dany’s past?  Thank you so much.

GRRM: Very perceptive of you.

Yes, it does point to … well, that would be telling.

Was that before ADWD? If so, then he’s probably hiding Arianne and Viserys marriage pact. If that quote is after ADWD then I have no idea why he would hide that. I mean he could also just say those climate limitations are not found in the Sealord of Braavos estate.