Ser Creighton Longbough = Symon Silvertongue

[sweetsunray]

Ok, so there has been speculation on the motivation and trustworthiness of the two hedge knights that Brienne meets. I was analyzing the hedge knights for literary analysis, utterly convinced there wasn't supposed to be a hidden id on either two... I did see hints to Bronn, and was checking one of the clues, and I ended up discovering two descriptive traits that Creighton and Symon share.

Ok so here's my "evidence"

Ser Creighton Longbough

He's an older man, but younger than sixty. He's got a belly that strains his doeskin jerkin, a shaggy beard of "old gold" and allegedly is near-sighted.

Quote

One was old and one was somewhat younger, though far from young. The younger rose to greet her. He had a big belly straining at the laces of his spotted doeskin jerkin. A shaggy untrimmed beard covered his cheeks and chin, the color of old gold. (aFfC, Brienne I)

And he loves to entertain Brienne (and others) with stories of his exploits and many kills and ransoms at the Battle of the Blackwater, while it's quite clear he wouldn't be much of a success at it.

He informs Brienne immediately that Illifer and him are both bound for Duskendale.

One of the interesting things he tells as some epic tale is the battle with the Knight of the Red Chicken.

Quote

Thankfully, Ser Creighton was too intent on the tale of his epic battle with the Knight of the Red Chicken to make note of the maiden's mirth. It felt good to have companions on the road, even such companions as these two. [...] ". . . I never knew his name," Ser Creighton was saying as he went by, "but upon his shield he bore a blood-red chicken, and his blade was dripping gore . . ." (aFfC, Brienne I)

The wiki proposes the Knight of the Red Chicken potentially may be House Herston of the Stormlands as it has a yellow rooster on a red field.

However, there is another House that has a "red chicken" as a sigil. It's House Gargalen of Dorne. And here things get very interesting. When Tyrion has to await and welcome Oberyn and his retinue he starts a a type of lesson or quiz game for Podrick. Bronn has to describe the banners of the retinue and Podrick has to idenity the houses. At one point Bronn describes one of the banners as depicting a Red Chicken. Podrick corrects Bronn. He immediately guesses it's House Gargalen, and that it's not a chicken but a red cockatrice, a mythical animal, holding a black snake in its beak.

Quote

"A red chicken eating a snake, looks like."
"The Gargalens of Salt Shore. A cockatrice. Ser. Pardon. Not a chicken. Red, with a black snake in its beak."
"Very good!" exclaimed Tyrion. (aSoS, Tyrion V)

Now, at one of the pot-shops two men of Gargalens had a brawl with a man of the Tyrells. The Tyrell guy ended up dead. The men of the Gargalens were scalded.

Quote

Already there had been a brawl in a Flea Bottom pot-shop that left one Tyrell man-at-arms dead and two of Lord Gargalen's scalded, [...] (aSoS, Tyrion VI)

Of course, a pot shop sparks interest, because allegedly and according to Bronn, Symon Silvertongue ended up as a bowl of brown at a pot shop that Bronn knew. Or rather, Tyrion made Symon Silvertongue believe that Bronn would give Symon a horse to get to Duskendale, and then tells Bronn to make him disappear (aka kill him)
 

Quote

 

 A flickering candle burned on a low table, beside a flagon of wine. The man behind it scarce looked a danger; a short man—though all men were tall to Tyrion—with thinning brown hair, pink cheeks, and a little pot pushing at the bone buttons of his doeskin jerkin. In his soft hands he held a twelve-stringed woodharp more deadly than a longsword. [...]

Tyrion gave him a smile. "I think it is time you brought your music to the Free Cities. They are great lovers of song in Braavos and Pentos and Lys, and generous with those who please them." He took a sip of wine. It was foul stuff, but strong. "A tour of all nine cities would be best. You wouldn't want to deny anyone the joy of hearing you sing. A year in each should suffice." He reached inside his cloak, to where the gold was hidden. "With the port closed, you will need to go to Duskendale to take ship, but my man Bronn will find a horse for you, and I would be honored if you would let me pay your passage . . ." [...] "That will not be necessary," said Tyrion. "You have my word as a Lannister, Bronn will call upon you soon."

[...]

"Very good, my lord." The balding kettle-bellied singer took up his woodharp again.

Bronn was waiting with the horses at the mouth of the alley. He helped Tyrion into his saddle. "When do I take the man to Duskendale?"

"You don't." Tyrion turned his horse. "Give him three days, then inform him that Hamish the Harper has broken his arm. Tell him that his clothes will never serve for court, so he must be fitted for new garb at once. He'll come with you quick enough." He grimaced. "You may want his tongue, I understand it's made of silver. The rest of him should never be found."

Bronn grinned. "There's a pot shop I know in Flea Bottom makes a savory bowl of brown. All kinds of meat in it, I hear." (aSoS, Tyrion IV)

 

Not only is Symon Silvertongue a pot bellied guy. He wears a doeskin jerkin, and like with Creighton the belly is pushing against the buttons. Sure, he has brown hair, but Creighton's old gold beard already suggests he may have colored the beard.

There is never confirmation that Symon was killed and ended up as a bowl of brown. Tyrion just assumes this, because he assumes Bronn will do whatever Tyrion desires.

But Bronn proves to start looking out for his own interests, ever since Tyrion wasn't Hand anymore and Tywin dismissed Bronn and all the sellswords and guardsmen Bronn had hired in aCoK. Let us not forget that Bronn was knighted and chose his name to be Ser Bronn of the Blackwater. Ser Creighton is not regaling Brienne with his own exploits but Bronn's, except perhaps for the brawl between the Gargalens and Tyrell men-at-arms. How did Ser Bronn of the Blackwater ensure his safety? By accepting to wed Lollys Stokeworth. At the very least, Bronn initially seems to believe that Tyrion truly wants Bronn to accompany Symon to Duskendale.

 

Quote

 

"[...]I am expected at Castle Stokeworth for supper."

"Stokeworth?" Tyrion hopped from the bed. "And pray, what is there for you in Stokeworth?"

"A bride." Bronn smiled like a wolf contemplating a lost lamb. "I'm to wed Lollys the day after next." (aSoS, Tyrion IX)

 

And it was actually Lady Tanda Stokeworth who hired Symon Silvertongue to sing for Lollys during her pregnancy.

Quote

Tyrion had almost forgotten about Shae's thrice-damned singer. "How is it you spoke to Symon?"

"I told Lady Tanda about him, and she hired him to play for Lollys. The music calms her when the baby starts to kick. Symon says there's to be a dancing bear at the feast, and wines from the Arbor. I've never seen a bear dance."

[...]

This is fruitless. "There is a singer who calls himself Symon Silver Tongue," Tyrion said wearily, pushing his guilt aside. "He plays for Lady Tanda's daughter sometimes."

"What of him?"

Kill him, he might have said, but the man had done nothing but sing a few songs. And fill Shae's sweet head with visions of doves and dancing bears. "Find him," he said instead. "Find him before someone else does." (aSoS, Tyrion II)

What appears to have happened is that Tyrion introduced Bronn to House Stokeworth in order to find the singer Symon. He gets to know both Symon and Tanda and Lollys. Initially Tanda may have been reluctant to consider Bronn as a potential groom for Lollys, but Bronn used Symon to sing the praises of Ser Bronn of the Blackwater to Tand and Lollys. And if he killed Symon this would ruin the plan. So, Bronn took Symon to the pot shop and told him what would happen to him if he didn't disappear and leave for Duskendale. While they were at the pot shop, Symon witnessed the brawl between the men-at-arms of House Gargalen and Tyrells and escaped or alternatively Bronn sent him to Stokeworth and hide there. Symon sold his harp, grew a beard and painted it gold, bought a horse he could find and hired an old starving sellsword/hedge knight who was to guide the singer to Duskendale. He managed to buy some old unusable shield and invented a name for himself - Ser Creighton Longbough.

 

[Aebram]

What color is "old gold?" I think it's darker, and more reddish or brownish in color, then modern gold. I seem to recall this being mentioned in relation to one of the horns, either Dragonbinder or the one that Melisandre burned. If so, then it fits nicely with your theory.

However, I'm not sure if it makes sense that a musician would disguise himself as a hedge knight. It seems more likely that he would stick to the original plan, to flee Westeros for the Free Cities, and continue to make a living with his harp.

[sweetsunray]

The original plan was what Tyrion proposed to him: enough gold to visit every free city and remain in each for a year. Symon instead had one price: get me to sing at the wedding and then he'd go to Duskendale  to take a ship there with Bronn's help.

Creighton is still bound for Duskendale, and refuses the High Sparrow's proposal to go to King's Landing with him. Seems to me that Symon is still going for Duskendale then. He goes as a hedge knight instead of a singer out of fear for his own life.

The brawl of men-at-arms of the "Red Chicken" occurs in the days before the Purple Wedding. Symon fled or hid then, with Tyrion still having sway at court, but some type of understanding with Bronn. Bronn claims to Tyrion he would do anything for him as long as he pays for it, but if another doubles Tyrion's price he'd follow that price. Symon promised Bronn a bride and marriage into nobility, and Bronn accepted the deal. So Symon hid at Stokeworth and praised Bronn sky high for his life. Tyrion gets arrested and his trial follows. Bronn is accepted as groom for Lollys. It is at this point that Symon has to go: either made to go by Bronn himself, or having to flee Bronn. It might be the first more like. He's the most likely to be wary of Varys' network of spies, because Bronn and Varys operated almost as colleagues. He would insist on the hedge knight disguise. Bronn may have been unwilling to put his life on the line against the Mountain, but he also knows Tyrion well enough to reckon he might find some way out of his planned execution.

Jaime sends Brienne on her way to find Sansa from King's Landing around the same time. Creighton/Symon is slower with the poorer horse. She catches up with them between Rosby and Duskendale, around the time of Tyrion's escape and the murder of Tywin. To announced to Tyrion that he's still on his side, Bronn names Lollys' son Tyrion Tanner.

We know Creighton isn't really a hedge knight, because of his belly, against Illifer's who's half starving and has bony fingers and a pinched face. Creighton doesn't know his sigils (red chicken mistake) or heraldry, while Podrick (an abandoned boy of a poor cadet branch of House Payne) can correct Bronn on the mistake. Illifer knows his sigils and the feats of the grandfather of his grandfather. Illifer is the true hedge knight. Creighton is not. Creighton has a similar background as Bronn (commoner), and likes to make up stories and embellish them, exactly as singers tend to do. The knight of the red chicken tale also implies that Creighton cannot even distinguish a man-at-arms from a knight (guy wears armor -> must be a knight). A hedge knight would know this.

[Nevets]

Nice try, but no.  I fail to see the point (i.e., why should we care?), and I don't know how we would find out, given the POV structure.

Symon is a minor character, and Longbough barely rates above negligible.  They're nobodies who've served their purpose in the story and won't be seen again.

Symon is there to be a nuisance to Tyrion.  His example shows how ruthless Tyrion can be when he feels threatened.  Longbough is there for us to get a feel for what kind of person Brienne is and help draw out backstory.

Even if Symon were saved by Bronn he would have no reason to be worried.  He's a threat to no one.  Tyrion has bigger worries even if he does get loose.

Symon Silvertounge is dead and Creighton Longbough may or may not be a hedge knight, but he's hardly important.

[Nevets]

I just reread the chapter and noticed that the innkeeper recognized Longbough, and said that he owes 7 stags.  Not likely if he's Symon in disguise.  Longbough is Longbough, and Symon is dead.

[Frey family reunion]

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Ok, so there has been speculation on the motivation and trustworthiness of the two hedge knights that Brienne meets. I was analyzing the hedge knights for literary analysis, utterly convinced there wasn't supposed to be a hidden id on either two... I did see hints to Bronn, and was checking one of the clues, and I ended up discovering two descriptive traits that Creighton and Symon share.

Ok so here's my "evidence"

Ser Creighton Longbough

He's an older man, but younger than sixty. He's got a belly that strains his doeskin jerkin, a shaggy beard of "old gold" and allegedly is near-sighted.

And he loves to entertain Brienne (and others) with stories of his exploits and many kills and ransoms at the Battle of the Blackwater, while it's quite clear he wouldn't be much of a success at it.

He informs Brienne immediately that Illifer and him are both bound for Duskendale.

One of the interesting things he tells as some epic tale is the battle with the Knight of the Red Chicken.

The wiki proposes the Knight of the Red Chicken potentially may be House Herston of the Stormlands as it has a yellow rooster on a red field.

However, there is another House that has a "red chicken" as a sigil. It's House Gargalen of Dorne. And here things get very interesting. When Tyrion has to await and welcome Oberyn and his retinue he starts a a type of lesson or quiz game for Podrick. Bronn has to describe the banners of the retinue and Podrick has to idenity the houses. At one point Bronn describes one of the banners as depicting a Red Chicken. Podrick corrects Bronn. He immediately guesses it's House Gargalen, and that it's not a chicken but a red cockatrice, a mythical animal, holding a black snake in its beak.

Now, at one of the pot-shops two men of Gargalens had a brawl with a man of the Tyrells. The Tyrell guy ended up dead. The men of the Gargalens were scalded.

 

I actually previously proposed the first part of your theory, that Creighton was describing the fight at the pot-shop that we hear about in ASOS.  My guess is that is how Creighton fights best with hot soup as opposed to a sword.

But I didn’t think about the second part of your theory that he might be Symon.  I don’t have any real reason not to believe that Creighton is near-sighted though, that may explain why he had trouble deciphering the sigil of House Gargalen.  I’m not really sure what the payoff would be in making Creighton Symon.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I actually previously proposed the first part of your theory, that Creighton was describing the fight at the pot-shop that we hear about in ASOS.  My guess is that is how Creighton fights best with hot soup as opposed to a sword.

But I didn’t think about the second part of your theory that he might be Symon.  I don’t have any real reason not to believe that Creighton is near-sighted though, that may explain why he had trouble deciphering the sigil of House Gargalen.  I’m not really sure what the payoff would be in making Creighton Symon.

I've considered it to be a reference to House Gargalen since 2017 and like you I always supposed it to be a reference of the pot shop brawl that Tyrion mentions.

And then yesterday, for literary parallel reasons, I delved into Symon and discovered he too had a doeskin jerkin. And somehow the fit is coming too close to ignore.

If this is true, then this must be Tyrion arc related. If Creighton = Symon, then he took a ship from Duskendale out of Westeros, and most likely journeyed on to Pentos. When Brienne and Creighton meet they don't know yet that Tywin's dead and that Tyrion escaped. The news is starting to spread when Brienne arrives at Duskendale a day earlier than Creighton and Illifer would arrive there. Creighton/Symon was already bound for Duskendale, but may not have yet decided where to. Hearing about Tyrion escaping, Symon would choose Essos imo. What are the odds that Illyrio would hire a singer who can recognize Tyrion? So, all this time, Tyrion considers Symon dead, turned into stew. He still makes a bitter joke about it to the Second Sons. What would the impact be if he hears or sees Symon again, while potentially Dany and the Tattered Prince sack Pentos.

Then we have a mirror to Sansa and the haunting singing of Marillion, and there's also an ongoing template of fools-ghosts.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

I just reread the chapter and noticed that the innkeeper recognized Longbough, and said that he owes 7 stags.  Not likely if he's Symon in disguise.  Longbough is Longbough, and Symon is dead.

You mean this quote

Quote

Ser Creighton Longbough looked offended. "Naggle, is that how you would greet an old friend? 'Tis me, Longbough."

"'Tis you indeed. You owe me seven stags. Show me some silver and I'll show you a bed." The innkeep set the tankards down one by one, slopping more ale on the table in the process.

If you need to point out your name and that you are an old friend, you're not that immediately recgonizable. And the 'Tis you indeed' is an admittance of recognizing the face after he need it to be pointed out. Seems Creighton does not entirely look the same as Naggle last saw him.

[Nevets]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You mean this quote

If you need to point out your name and that you are an old friend, you're not that immediately recgonizable. And the 'Tis you indeed' is an admittance of recognizing the face after he need it to be pointed out. Seems Creighton does not entirely look the same as Naggle last saw him.

He may not look quite the same.  Still, he knows the innkeeper's name and expects his own name to be recognized.  And the innkeeper recognizes it enough to know the guy owes him 7 stags.  So Longbough is a real person.  If our guy isn't Longbough, then where's the real one, and how does he know the innkeeper well enough to know his name will be recognized.  I'm OK with coincidences, but this is ridiculous.

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Nevets said:

He may not look quite the same.  Still, he knows the innkeeper's name and expects his own name to be recognized. 

Actually I disagree. He seems to point out that he now goes by the name Longbough. That Naggle should refer to him as Longbough.

Just now, Nevets said:

And the innkeeper recognizes it enough to know the guy owes him 7 stags. 

He recognizes the man. He doesn't repeat the name. He's addressing the man himself, without naming him, and says he owes him 7 stags. Some people remember faces, others remember names. The first don't need to remember a name, to recognize a face when pointed out or what they owe him. As an innkeep he will catch those who owe him better if he remembers a face over a name.

Just now, Nevets said:

So Longbough is a real person.  If our guy isn't Longbough, then where's the real one, and how does he know the innkeeper well enough to know his name will be recognized. 

The real person is the man standing in front of the innkeep, no matter his name.

[Nevets]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually I disagree. He seems to point out that he now goes by the name Longbough. That Naggle should refer to him as Longbough.

He recognizes the man. He doesn't repeat the name. He's addressing the man himself, without naming him, and says he owes him 7 stags. Some people remember faces, others remember names. The first don't need to remember a name, to recognize a face when pointed out or what they owe him. As an innkeep he will catch those who owe him better if he remembers a face over a name.

The real person is the man standing in front of the innkeep, no matter his name.

Oh, so Symon Silvertongue knows the inkeeper, and has been there often enough that he owes 7 stags.  This is getting better and better.  I thought the guy was a singer and harpist, so therefore somewhat memorable as such.

[sweetsunray]

41 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Oh, so Symon Silvertongue knows the inkeeper, and has been there often enough that he owes 7 stags. 

Last time he'd have been there, at the latest would be early in aCoK, so about 2 years. Symon appears for the first time in aCoK, when Shae still has her own place, and Tyrion visits her at night via Chataya's and hired guards for Shae she would consider too ugly to sleep with (such as an Ibbinese).

Quote

The sound swelled as he walked from the stable to the house. Tyrion had never been fond of singers, and he liked this one even less than the run of the breed, sight unseen. When he pushed open the door, the man broke off. "My lord Hand." He knelt, balding and kettle-bellied, murmuring, "An honor, an honor."
"Sweetling," he called her. "And who is this?"
The singer raised his eyes. "I am called Symon Silver Tongue, my lord. A player, a singer, a taleteller—"
"And a great fool," Tyrion finished. (aCoK, Tyrion X)

So, the guy acts, sings and is a storyteller.

ETA: But yeah, the innkeep would likely remember his profession. So? A good innkeep also doesn't betray his customer's businesses. Notice that Creighton only uses Longbough, not ser, etc.

[Frey family reunion]

Hmmm, is it within the realm of possibility that both Symon and Creighton are the same person, yet that person is in reality neither Symon or Creighton?  Could we be looking at two of Varys’ disguises?

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Hmmm, is it within the realm of possibility that both Symon and Creighton are the same person, yet that person is in reality neither Symon or Creighton?  Could we be looking at two of Varys’ disguises?

The idea crossed my mind... but Varys' disguises haven't fooled Tyrion or Ned before.

Symon is beardless and Tyrion met him several times. This would negate Symon being one of Varys's disguises. Besides, why would Varys waste his time singing to Shae or Lollys in disguise in aCoK and early aSoS?

And then there's the timing when Brienne meets Creighton on the road between Rosby and Duskendale. There's no way Varys managed to get ahead of Brienne when he has just helped Tyrion escape from his cell and got him onto a ship to Pentos.

I think rather that Bronn took a page out of Varys' book of tricks and had Symon apply it.

Personally I wished Creighton and Symon were just two of Varys's disguises. Then I wouldn't have had to propose yet another of the dreaded and hated hidden identity theories. There I was just doing analysis on Brienne's arc on how the two hedge knights serve to show us how Brienne needs to learn Syrio's lessons about "seeing, hearing, etc and thinking after to see truth" and "Gawain and the Green Knight" and Dr. Weird tricks from Only Kids are Afraid in the Dark, and then some stupid doeskin jerkin spoils all the symbolic fun.

[Evolett]

Time hasn't permitted me to go over the actual narrative in relation to the OP but judging by the similar descriptors as well as the case made, I do think it's possible Ser Creighton and Symon Silver-Tongue are one and the same person. Seeing as Symon's goal was to secure the position of one of 7 singers in competition for a silver lute at the wedding of a stag (albeit a false stag), owing the innkeep seven silver stags might be a further clue. 

Regarding his name, Longbough could well be his real name rather than Symon Silver-Tongue, hence the Innkeep's recognition of the man and the name. Symon Silver-Tongue is more likely the name he performed under as an artist. We certainly have examples of bards and singers giving themselves an artist name. The Blue Bard's real name is Wat and Tom of Sevenstreams is also known as Tom o' Sevens or Tom Sevenstrings. Marillion could also be an alias or artist's name. 

As to his purpose, Tyrion does keep thinking of the singer he committed to "singer's stew," though that side of the story is probably done because Tyrion's secret regarding Shae no longer matters. My guess is he is important to the back story. It's interesting that Symon and Sam are the only two men who sing a lullaby to a baby. Though not quite in the same way, Lollys and Gilly share being brutalized by men. 

There is a motif of maimed singers in the books which we discussed in @Seams thread, "The maimed Singers," a while ago. Can't locate it at the moment. 

Personally, I think this find could serve to shed further light on "Bael" characters, also connecting Bael characters to the Symon/Simon/Symeon name group.  

[Aebram]

Sweetsunray, you certainly have done your homework! I still have a couple of reservations, but you've made a darn good case.

[sweetsunray]

I also think Creighton's horse deserves a mention. George uses horses as a reflection or parallel to characters, minor and major, from the start. Sometimes as a physical match, but also to signal an alliance or that they're the wrong horse to bet on (the red stallions).

Creighton's horse has rheumy eyes and is swaybacked. The rheumy eyes of the horse match with Brienne's belief that Creighton is near-sighted because of his squinting. A swaybacked horse would give the impression of a belly, and therefore matches with Creighton's belly. That horse is said to be "brown". This is a hint that Creighton is actually brown haired, not the old gold of his beard. And it's also said to be a gelding, which suggests he's either impotent or a eunuch. And yes, the last was the reason why I already checked the timeline on whether Creighton might have been a Varys disguise, but dismissed it because of the timeline.

The Longbough name is a clear pointer by George to Frazer's Golden Bough and the Green Knight (divine king). @Seams would appreciate that Longbough is a wordplay on longbow. Summer Islander longbows are made of goldenheart trees, and thus are golden bows/boughs. Meanwhile House Hunter's holdfast is called Longbow, and it has 5 silver arrows on a brown field. Together, Creighton and Illifer's personal arms make for the Green Knight's colors and attire as described by the Pearl Poet in his poem of Gawain and the Green Knight: green with golden spurs and buttons and wearing ermine and a hood (Illifer also wears a hood of a roughspun mantle).

Symbolically this pair kicks of Brienne's journey to learn to become the first. She has a true heart and strives for the chivalric code, but she fails in what Syrio tells Arya she needs to learn.

Quote

"Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth."  (aGoT, Arya IV)

And

Quote

"Just so. Now we will begin the dance. Remember, child, this is not the iron dance of Westeros we are learning, the knight's dance, hacking and hammering, no. This is the bravo's dance, the water dance, swift and sudden. All men are made of water, do you know this? When you pierce them, the water leaks out and they die." (aGoT, Arya IV)

Brienne meets these men in full armor and with her arms, while their arms and armor is beneath a tree. She takes off her helmet to prove to them that she is not a "ser". That's at least some improvement to her questioning people at Rosby village, where the goodwife also calls her "ser", implying she asked people her questions completely helmeted. (no wonder the guards at the Rosby gate joke about auburn hair between the maiden's legs). Despite her taking her physical helm off, she still wears a mental one, with a limited visor. We get no tone of voices, no descriptions of eye colors or whether their smiles reach their eyes, and her own thoughts reverberate over what the other two are saying. And though her words are formal speech, she deals with the conversation with the two hedge knights as if it's a battle, hacking and hammering. In that way she actually ends up being discourteous (Creighton says it's discourteous to argue). She only truly understands the language of cheap steal that Illifer needs to unsheathe. Brienne doesn't take note of only a very few characters eye colors: Hyle (she remembers from the Reach), Gendry (Renly's ghost) and the Heddle sisters (because she wonders whether Willow might be Arya or not). This lack of information is not just because the characters seem so unimportant. Jaime pays attention to almost anyone's eyes, no matter how small their role or short a meeting he has with them. We get a far deeper insight on Shadrich when Sansa describes his facial features in two sentences in tWoW than we have from a whole conversation Brienne has with him. She asks other people about a maiden with blue eyes, but does not pay attention to eye color of anyone until she gets to the Crossroads really (except for Hyle).

Almost all of Brienne's meetings are a lesson for her towards Syrio's words. But they can be grouped in a theme

• Creighton, Illifer, Shadrich and The Pious Dwarf revolve around "making conversation" (including lying, socially connecting, etc). The pious dwarf is an example of success.
• Next follow characters that revolve around recognition: Podrick, Hyle, Shagwell and getting recognition from Tarly
• The last group is about recognizing a/the stranger. She fails that test with the Gravedigger and ends up facing a resurrected dead woman

So, for Brienne's arc the identity of Creighton matters not, except that she failed to recognize the implications that he was a man in disguise, for fear of being hunted or hunting someone. But the first three meetings lead to the success of the pious dwarf, who later ends up being killed by men who hope to get a castle out of Cersei for catching Tyrion. In that sense there is a potential irony that Brienne also might have met a man who's supposed to have been killed on the order of Tyrion, but is still alive.

Coming back to the doeskin jerkin: it's interesting that Arya's the sole other character aside from Symon and Creighton who gets to wear one. In her case, she wears the doeskin jerkin of Lady Smallwood's dead son. And her reaction to Arya wearing it is quite melancholic, almost as if Arya becomes a bit of a ghost. And of course Arya is believed to be dead for several books by almost everybody.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

Regarding his name, Longbough could well be his real name rather than Symon Silver-Tongue, hence the Innkeep's recognition of the man and the name. Symon Silver-Tongue is more likely the name he performed under as an artist. We certainly have examples of bards and singers giving themselves an artist name. The Blue Bard's real name is Wat and Tom of Sevenstreams is also known as Tom o' Sevens or Tom Sevenstrings. Marillion could also be an alias or artist's name.

Yes, Tom of Sevenstreams variations of names come to mind, and many performers use various names, artist names, etc. 

I've also found that Creighton is Scottish for "border". There's one other Creighton and he's a Redfort; with a red border around a red castle for sigil.

Illifer is a unique name, not just for asoiaf but on any google search. I suspect it comes from vexillifer. I only found a match for Illifer when I searched "illiferos". An old medieval manuscript in Latin turned up about the Battle of Evesham. In that manuscript the word was actually vexilliferos, but split across two lines as vex-illiferos. A vexillifer is a standard bearer, or as George would say "a bannerman". Vexillifer was likely too weird a name to use, so he went for Illifer instead. And I think he chose the name for "bannerman" to indicate that these two do not belong to the Brotherhood without Banners, especially because there are several allusions to where Brienne's road will lead: a grilled trout (kissed by fire) with a slit throat. And the Green Knight references matter, because Brienne is a Gawain like character who's accused of having slit the throat of a Green King (Renly) and bears the sword of a man who was beheaded with his own sword. She's on her way to be sorted out by the gods as Illifer says. Ultimately this is not Stoneheart, but will be the future Green Knight/divine king Bran, and his forgivance.

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

There is a motif of maimed singers in the books which we discussed in @Seams thread, "The maimed Singers," a while ago. Can't locate it at the moment. 

Here's a link.

I'm interested to note that "Tom O Sevens" is hidden within the name "Symon Silver-Tongue." But other things are hidden within the name: lemons, storm, monster and "must serve," off the top of my head. 

One of the points we pondered in that thread was that singers invent heroes by telling their stories. So Ser Creighton making up a story about himself as a hero might fit with the idea that he embodies the singer Symon Silver-Tongue. Figuratively, if not literally.

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The Longbough name is a clear pointer by George to Frazer's Golden Bough and the Green Knight (divine king). @Seams would appreciate that Longbough is a wordplay on longbow. Summer Islander longbows are made of goldenheart trees, and thus are golden bows/boughs.

Yes! I do love this. And it helps us to figure out Ser Creighton Longbough's role in ASOIAF. 

I believe that Jaime embodies the myth of the Golden Bough, using a branch (his kingslayer arm, later made into a gold hand) to slay the old king at the base of a tree (the Iron Throne) and then taking that seat for himself. By killing Aerys and taking his seat on the throne, Jaime is the rightful king. (So it is delightfully ironic that his son, Joffrey, is perceived as a bastard and illegitimate son of nominal King Robert when, in fact, he is the oldest son of rightful King Jaime and would be a perfectly acceptable heir by Targaryen incest standards.) 

I think you are right that GRRM wants us to pair up Symon and Creighton as two manifestations of the same character or allegorical figure. For one thing, the words "butcher singer" are hidden within the name Ser Creighton Longbough. But the name also contains words such as Bronn, Long Night, goose, egg, gorgon, coughing, ghost, birch tree, colors, hero and a rich range of other possibilities. (I know anagrams can be a deep rabbit hole and difficult to pin down if they are not perfect; in this case, I think GRRM's "singer stew" tells us to cut up the pieces and throw them in a pot, the way that letters are thrown into a pot when sorting out anagrams.) 

The goose anagram may relate to Brienne's later insights obtained at The Stinking Goose tavern and that name contains the word "stoke" that ties into Bronn's marriage into House Stokeworth as well as the stoking of a fire. If the Birch anagram is correct, that also ties into the Bronn / Stokeworth parallel as Falyse Stokeworth is married to Balman Birch. 

"Colors" fits with a theory I have been nursing about The Blackwater as a place that absorbs all colors (like the color black) but then reconfigures them and throws them out again in new combinations (somewhat similar to a prism bending and revealing light as rainbows). I think the Blackwater would not have been able to reconfigure colors without the magic of wild fire. This rebirth of colors may be the opposite of Melisandre's birth of shadows after burning the ship mast / gods of the Seven. 

But Creighton Longbough claims to have been a hero of the Blackwater. Who do we know who was also imagined (but not really) a hero of the Blackwater? Renly. His armor was worn by Ser Garlan Tyrell and people thought it was Renly's ghost. 

And who do we know who really did fight valiantly at the Blackwater? Bronn. He is rewarded with a knighthood and marriage into House Stokeworth. I think I've mentioned elsewhere that I see Bronn as a "brown character" who represents the fertile earth (or maybe he is fertilizer). House Stokeworth provides the food supply for King's Landing and Lollys, impregnated by "half a hundred" small folk, represents the crops that will eventually be harvested. A major motif throughout the books is the death of leaves and other living things to create topsoil or to nourish the earth in order to provide fertile ground for new seeds that start the cycle anew.

Long story short: the Blackwater brought together dead Renly in green with brown Bronn to restore the fertility cycle of crops and seasons. The baby's name will be Tyrion. I believe that the map of Westeros is supposed to be Mycah, the butcher's boy whose chopped-up body parts are delivered to his father in a bag (butchered like Symon). The island continent is reconfigured (brought together again as a united seven kingdoms) to make noseless Tyrion. The north represents his big head and you can imagine The Fingers, The Neck and other pieces of a body. 

I suspect that Duskendale is a place for people to be recycled after they have lost or used up their colors. Kings guard members wear white cloaks, devoid of color. Duskendale is the home of House Darklyn, which has provided more members of the kings guard than any other family. When Brienne goes there, she immediately finds someone to paint her shield: she needs new colors, too. It's possible that the doe skin jerkins common to Ser Creighton and Symon Silver-Tongue are simply doeskin / Dusken wordplay, telling us that these characters are going to a place where they can regain their colors. 

It's interesting that Joffrey had a fawn skin jerkin, made out of Tommen's pet fawn. I had thought the meaning was that he was a fake Baratheon, covering himself with the skin of a deer. I think that's true, but there may be another layer of meaning, if the doeskin / Duskendale wordplay is a hint. Maybe Joffrey had also lost his color - he does set aside Widow's Wail, which is the name of a blue flower, and picks up Ser Ilyn's silver sword. In heraldry, silver and white are both referred to as argent and may represent an absence of color. It's interesting that Jonquil is the name of a flower (and is Sansa's code name) and that Ser Dontos (the sole "survivor" of the Defiance of Duskendale) wears his House colors when he helps Sansa escape the Red Keep - the flowers are blossoming again as Joffrey dies. 

By the way, I think Bronn killing Ser Balman Birch and the sacrifice of Falyse Stokeworth to make Ser Robert Strong is another side of the same fertility stew that results in the baby Tyrion being born to Lollys. Ser Gregor Clegane is reborn as Robert Strong. The baby of Lollys and Bronn is on Team Tyrion; Robert Strong is on Team Cersei. She even tells us in her POV that she feels like a baby being picked up by its mother - like Joffrey felt in her arms - when Robert Strong picks her up after her walk of shame. 

Back to Creighton Longbough.

I think he is one manifestation of the mentor who helps Brienne at various points along her Hero's Journey. He feeds her, and I think it's significant that the meal is trout. Tyrion requests small fish (among other symbolically important foods) at the Winterfell breakfast where he discusses with his family whether Bran will live. Ser Duncan the Tall sees a small fish in the Chequy Water stream just before he kills Ser Lucas Longinch and dies himself (he recovers). Walda Frey Bolton says that Edmure Tully's manhood is like a fish and we later learn that Brynden "Blackfish" Tully has escaped Riverrun by swimming under a portcullis (like a sperm fertilizing an egg?). 

Are Ser Creighton and Ser Illifer symbolically impregnating Brienne when she accepts their trout? If they are like Renly and Garlan, this might make sense. We know that Brienne loved Renly and she danced with him when she was younger. He put a cloak over her shoulders, symbolic of a Westeros wedding, after she defeated his lover, Ser Loras, in the melee at Bitterbridge. Garlan dances with Sansa at her wedding to Tyrion. Garlan's wife is noticeably pregnant at the same wedding feast. 

Who will be Brienne's offspring? Possibly Podrick Payne, connected to tongueless Ser Ilyn Payne who is probably parallel to Symon Silver-Tongue. He becomes visible to Brienne in the ruins of House Hollard, ancestral home of Ser Dontos. And maybe Ser Hyle Hunt, who seems to be born - becoming visible to Brienne - when Dick Crabb dies. 

It's all about rebirth and fertility - the cycle of life. 

[sweetsunray]

There are certainly quite a few anomalies about Creighton versus Illifer

Creighton on the one hand proves to have a commoner background, while Illifer shows signs at least to have come from noble stock:

• m'lady vs my lady
• doesn't know heraldry (red chicken) vs knows it well (lothston bat)

More Creighton is hinted over and over not to be a knight really, while Illifer is a true hedge knight who sells his sword

• Creighton boasts about dozens ransoms, dozen fearsome knights slain and the knight of the red chicken all on the Blackwater: these are lies. Creighton can't even pay fare or room or buy a cheap shield that isn't damaged. Brienne doesn't know any of the names or knights he mentions. The knight of the red chicken was actually a man-at-arms in Flea Bottom, and House Gargalen is Dornish and therefore never fought on the Blackwater. Brienne wasn't in that battle, but she should know lots of names on both sides of the Blackwater: raised to know sigils and words of houses, especially those of the Stormlands, having loved the stories about knights as a child, and having been part of Renly's army from Horn Hill until he was killed. More, many knights even courted her at Horn Hill. At least one would have been a name she ought to be able to confirm, but in her mind she explicitly thinks that he's just spouting more names she doesn't know (in other words Ser Herbert Bolling is a fiction). Shadrich later explicitly points out he doesn't believe Creighton was at the Blackwater, or any battle for that matter.
• When they are still three and the Poor Fellows are coming their way, Illifer prepares to meet whomever is coming. Creighton does not.
• When the High Sparrow tries to make them join them, Creighton admits they were going to Duskendale but they might escort them to King's Landing without asking a price, whereas Illifer will only do it for coin. The High Sparrow urges them to renounce worldly masters. Illifer insists he needs to eat and flatly repeats they are bound for Duskendale. Creighton behaves as if he feels unbound and pretend being a hedge knight leading the romantic adventure life. But Illifer treats it like a business, and his insistence on Duskendale suggests that he is bound to a master who wants him to go there.
• Illifer's horse may be half starving and old, but Creighton's horse is worse.

And yet Creighton has this fancy name Longbough. I already mentioned I think it's a wordplay by George on Longbow, and on the golden bough. But in-world that is a peculiar name for a commoner to choose. Tom O' Sevens or Tom Sevenstream may have various names, but they are functional names attached to indicate a singer and "which Tom are we talking about". Longbough is a fancy name, and yet not an attested name of a house, for someone who does not know show any talent in Brienne's chapter aside from telling juicy tales and little to no understanding about houses or knights, sigils and which houses fought at the Blackwater. Choosing a name that sounds like Longbow but written differently points to a level of literacy.

This raises the question why Illifer would travel with such a guy and allow him to pretend being a knight. This only makes sense if Creighton is his task to keep safe and escort to Duskendale. And there is nothing special really about Duskendale, except for having the first harbor outside of KL. They are not going to be hired by House Rykker, won't even get admittance there, and have nothing to sell.

Creighton was not written to believe at face value, but as a liar and an enigma, especially against the poor but far more real hedge knight Illifer. Even the pairing raises immediate questions.

@Seams I agree that for Brienne's arc these two represent the recycling of life and death, especially in combination with Symon Silver Tongue. Here's the timeline somewhat. Symon appears in the story shortly before the battle of the Blackwater. In the same chapter, Tyrion decides to rehouse Shae and Varys proposes he makes her Lollys' maid, which Tyrion thinks a good idea, since Cersei is not like to visit Tanda and Lollys much. At this point, Tyrion believes he gets Symon out of his life. But then Shae starts her "Symon says" conversation and Tyrion asks her how she got to meet Symon. He learns that Symon visits the Stokeworths (still in the Red Keep) to sing to Lollys. In the same chapter of aSoS (Tyrion II), he orders Bronn to find Symon before anyone else does and informs him that he can be found visiting the Stokeworths. Bronn finds Symon and sets up a meeting between Tyrion and Symon at a wine sink at a dead end (Tyrion IV). Tyrion's plan is to give Symon 30 golden dragons to leave King's Landing, go to Duskendale and board a ship there for Essos. Symon reveals he wants to sing at the Purple Wedding and for Tyrion to arrange some accident to one of the other seven singers. Tyrion says he will and that he will send his man Bronn to fetch him. Bronn asks Tyrion when he's got to escort Symon to Duskendale, but Tyrion tells him the plan has changed. He asks Bronn to wait 3 days, propose a change of clothes to lure Symon and implies he wants him dead, but uses the euphemism "disappear". Bronn suggests he knows a pot shop where they make a bowl of brown of any type of meat.

The wine sink scene is a parallel to Brienne waiting for Nimble Dick in the Stinking Goose at Maidenpool. And the woman working at the wine sink is an allusion to LS, because she's dead-eyed (before the RW occurs). The same chapter also has Tobho Mott arriving at Tywin's with the reforged swords from Ice. One of those swords is handed to Brienne by Jaime at the end of aSoS when he sends her on her mission to find Sansa and protect Sansa with that sword. 

House Gargalen with their sigil of the "red chicken" arrive at KL in the next chapter (Tyrion V). We learn about the brawl at the pot shop in Tyrion VI. Creighton refers to the red chicken twice, and therefore was in KL at a pot shop in Flea Bottom, shortly after Symon allegedly ended up being Singer's Stew. Symon disappears in a pot shop and out comes Creighton so to speak, with both men having a belly straining either the buttons (Symon) or the laces (Creighton) of their doeskin jerkin.

By Tyrion VII the Stokeworths have moved back to their castle, because Shae does not work for them anymore and became Sansa's maid. The Purple Wedding happens and Bronn takes a long time before visiting Tyrion in his prison cell, telling him that he promised Tyrion once that if somebody asked him to sell Tyrion out, he would give Tyrion the chance to double the offer. Tyrion learns that Bronn is to wed Lollys and thinks it's all Cersei's doing, though he believes Cersei must have done something to sweeten the deal for Tanda to accept such a man. He forgets that he introduced Bronn to visit the Stokeworths to find Symon. Symon would be someone who would sweeten the deal by singing about the dozen ransoms Bronn won (he has gold: we are shown this via his clothes, the brothels he can pay for, and by Bronn reminding Tyrion he has gold now), the knights he killed at the Blackwater.

Brienne finds a horse, a Lothston shield ready for her to go on her mission. Meanwhile someone orders Illifer to accompany a hedge knight who is only playing at being a hedge knight to Duskendale on a cheap horse and with a damaged shield, and that someone was shortly outside King's Landing, giving Creighton and Illifer a head start on Brienne to meet them on the road between Rosby and Duskendale.  

And since Brienne's aFfC arc ends with a character who's alive but supposed to be dead, it is thematically fitting her arc starts with someone who's alive but is believed to be dead, except at the start of her arc Brienne isn't looking with her eyes, hearing with her ears, tasting or sensing. And it's not an enigma she could solve, because she doesn't know about Symon either. 

ETA: On Renly and Garlan. When Catelyn meets Renly (all in green gold, unarmed and unarmored with a crown... a divine king) she sees his green armor at his tent, and sees her own reflection in it as if drowned. She wonders to herself whether one can drown in sorrow (and doesn't know yet how much sorrow awaits her). So, Renly's green knight armor that Garlan wears to act as Renly's ghost was tied to Catelyn's fate and death, with Brienne present as Renly's throat is slashed by Stannis' shadow.