Craving Peaches Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 (edited) Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them, but people seem absolutely convinced that all sorts of characters are secretly other characters that we've been told are dead or somewhere else and so on. I think we need to take a step back and look at how secret identities are actually presented to us in the book. They are usually made fairly obvious. 1. Being able to spell a character's real name from their false name: Alleras -> Sarella 'Arstan Whitebeard' -> Barristan 2. Clear hints as to their appearance being similar: The Description of Jaqen's changed face lines up almost perfectly with 'The Alchemist' who kills Pate. Ser Gregor and 'Robert Strong'. The Man in the Cave with Bran -> Bloodraven. 3. It can be reasonably inferred that X is Y because we know for a fact X cannot be X as X is dead and Y is behind it and stands to gain from impersonating X: The Situation with 'The Alchemist' and 'Pate' - note Samwell even thinks there is something he mistrusts about 'Pate' giving us a hint. 4. We know X is Y because we are straight up told or shown it: Sansa -> Alayne Tyrion -> Hugor Hill Arya -> Cat, Beth, Mercy etc. Varys -> Rugen Young Griff -> F/Aegon Etc. 5. Hints in the Text strongly imply X is Y (for remaining secret identities that don't fit into the above categories): Bloodraven -> Maynard Plumm So as we can see from the above, every time a 'secret identity' is presented to us, it is made quite obvious who it really is. So I don't think we should be expecting anything massively out of the left field. We should be checking anagrams and such. And when considering how they would benefit from a secret identity it shouldn't require a massive convoluted plot. It should be fairly obvious if someone is benefiting, and why they are using a secret identity, otherwise I find it unlikely. All in all I think if there are any secret identities in play it should be fairly obvious (by the standards of this forum). It shouldn't need a big convoluted explanation, it should be something the average reader willing to do a bit of close reading and pay close attention to detail can reasonably figure out, most importantly there should be hints here and there that we are meant to think it is a secret identity! Thank you for reading. Edited March 1 by Craving Peaches LongRider, Many-Faced Votary, kissdbyfire and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 Short and sweet: yes they are, and have been for a long time imo. Many-Faced Votary and The Fattest Leech 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 1 Author Share Posted March 1 2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Short and sweet: yes they are, and have been for a long time imo. I know people get bored but some of these theories...do people really expect them to come true in the next book? Or are they just making them up? I would say it's a bit of both but some people take it really seriously... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 The secret identity theories just won't die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 1 Author Share Posted March 1 1 minute ago, LongRider said: The secret identity theories just won't die. I don't mind it up until the point where people get really aggressive and grumpy that you don't like their theory or find it not probable. Then it's just annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 I don't worry about it too much; my scroll key works just fine. Many-Faced Votary and The Fattest Leech 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 1 Author Share Posted March 1 2 minutes ago, LongRider said: I don't worry about it too much; my scroll key works just fine. True, you can always ignore it. But it does get wearing sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 Some of these characters are pardon the borrow, but drawn that way. To put the question in your mind--who is this? Septa Lemore, Elder Brother, Quorin Halfhand, some of the sellswords in the Golden Company, some of the BwB. Then there are the obvious oft mentioned missing persons. I think Martin does this purposefully. Awfully danged canny if he doesn't. A couple of good ones left off your list were (the ETCs are fun) Bloodraven = creepy tree root mushroom growing on forehead guy in cave Ghost of High Heart = Jenny of Oldstone's little witch friend I've never wondered who the hooded man or Craster really were because well, I don't care very much. But I would like to know the backstory on Val and the spearwives and Mance himself. Who is the Green Grace? What kind of name is Jyanna for the marshlands? The "rubies" on Quiet Island? I have just enough on all of them to know there is so much more. Or at least think there is! Hugorfonics 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 Next you'll be telling Varys and Wyman aren't Mermen. Gods what has this forum come to! Many-Faced Votary, Craving Peaches and kissdbyfire 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: Next you'll be telling Varys and Wyman aren't Mermen. Gods what has this forum come to! Varys is a Mermaid! It is known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 1 Author Share Posted March 1 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: To put the question in your mind--who is this? Septa Lemore, Elder Brother, Quorin Halfhand Well with Septa Lemore we should start with Anagrams. I am find with Qhorin and Elder Brother being Qhorin and Elder Brother...I don't really get any 'hints' that we are meant to suspect them. Edited March 1 by Craving Peaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: I've never wondered who the hooded man or Craster really were because well, I don't care very much. But I would like to know the backstory on Val and the spearwives and Mance himself. Who is the Green Grace? What kind of name is Jyanna for the marshlands? The "rubies" on Quiet Island? I have just enough on all of them to know there is so much more. Or at least think there is! Backstories are much more interesting than hidden secret identities and its stepchild, secret Targs. Many-Faced Votary and Curled Finger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 I generally agree, and also generally would prefer fewer rather than more hidden identities in the story. It can easily get too cluttered and risks getting cheap. But on the merits of the arguments, I am a little more agnostic or favorable to some of the proposed hidden identities. I should mention that one example that doesn't quite fit your categories is Maynard Plumm/Bloodraven, which is far more subtle, and never explicitly confirmed by the story's end, though fairly inarguable, no? Many-Faced Votary and Curled Finger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 1 Author Share Posted March 1 Just now, Phylum of Alexandria said: I should mention that one example that doesn't quite fit your categories is Maynard Plumm/Bloodraven, which is far more subtle, and never explicitly confirmed by the story's end, though fairly inarguable, no? True, but I think there's enough 'hints' for that one. Many-Faced Votary and kissdbyfire 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 What I want to know is who is the 3EC? Do we know who he is, who he really is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 12 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Ghost of High Heart = Jenny of Oldstone's little witch friend Wait, who? 12 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Some of these characters are pardon the borrow, but drawn that way. To put the question in your mind--who is this? Septa Lemore, Elder Brother, Quorin Halfhand, I don't know who the Elder Brother is, but kinda like the hooded man I don't really care for some reason. Halfhand was just a guy I think, but half maesters? I got no idea but I'm pretty sure his name's been mentioned before. I'm like 99% sure Lemore is Ashara 12 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Mance himself I think what Mance said about himself is the truth. But I'm glad you mentioned him because I was super confused at first in adwd when all of a sudden some wildlings were yelling at Theon. It really boggled my mind when I finally realized Mance was the bard. Also I definitely wasn't clever enough to realize Whitebeard was Barristan, even though Renly and Tyrion talked about how he's not done, I still didn't figure it out. And if it weren't for this place there's no chance in hell I'd figure out the dornish sphinx, and now that I can see that it definitely adds coolness to the story Curled Finger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Well with Septa Lemore we should start with Anagrams. I am find with Qhorin and Elder Brother being Qhorin and Elder Brother...I don't really get any 'hints' that we are meant to suspect them. I just finished reading Elder Brother. We get a backstory and age as well as a description. He's also the only one permitted to speak with regularity on the island. He leaves on covert missions and plants things in secret places. He was a knight, is 44 years old and fought on the side of the Targaryens, though Rhaegar never knew his name. Yet he was a knight. Seems to me this should come in real handy somewhere, particularly in the war torn Riverlands. He knows someone, maybe what was really going on at Harrenhal. A knight may well have been there. I figure Septon Meribald and Elder Brother work with or for the same organization that probably works with or for some faction of the BwB. He's someone. He knows something. This anagram thing, while useful, doesn't always apply. It can be as useful (or foolish) as the text itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted March 1 Author Share Posted March 1 1 minute ago, Curled Finger said: I just finished reading Elder Brother. We get a backstory and age as well as a description. He's also the only one permitted to speak with regularity on the island. He leaves on covert missions and plants things in secret places. He was a knight, is 44 years old and fought on the side of the Targaryens, though Rhaegar never knew his name. Yet he was a knight. Seems to me this should come in real handy somewhere, particularly in the war torn Riverlands. He knows someone, maybe what was really going on at Harrenhal. A knight may well have been there. I figure Septon Meribald and Elder Brother work with or for the same organization that probably works with or for some faction of the BwB. He's someone. He knows something. That's the thing though. He has a complete, plausible backstory as 'Elder Brother'. I don't find his identity as 'Elder Brother' suspicious. So there may be some reveals but I don't think they will be about him not being Elder Brother. 3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: This anagram thing, while useful, doesn't always apply. It can be as useful (or foolish) as the text itself. True, I suggest it because it is a method used to signal secret identities in the text. But people do overuse it sometimes in my view. Many-Faced Votary and LongRider 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 14 minutes ago, LongRider said: Backstories are much more interesting than hidden secret identities and its stepchild, secret Targs. You know, that idea that one of the spearwives is the Umber daughter some nutty Wildling ran off with. That sort of thing amid the wonderful backstories. All those great "white sisters" ideas @Corvo the Crow is bandying about. I love the idea of Weirwood Priestesses and the north not forgetting everything. Not giant Squirrel is Ashara Dayne stuff, just some nice, AH Ha! I thought she was too smart to yak at Theon like that moments. Corvo the Crow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 10 minutes ago, LongRider said: What I want to know is who is the 3EC? Do we know who he is, who he really is? @SeanF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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