Are People Taking Secret Identities Too Far?

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol nice!

So in a past life I was super obsessed with the songs of ice and fire, and more importantly the bards who sing them. So this scene, despite being filled to the brim in Arya badassery stayed with me probably because of that song.

Old lady too, I never thought she was a child of the forest because she's southron and nothing like Leaf.

Idk if it's really her or the location. Right? She can only see stuff from that hill... What's the story with this hill? Where was Summerhall? Not in the Riverlands, right?

Or course 

No worries, I am obsessed with magic swords and more importantly the heroes who will wield them.  We all have our kinks.    I had to be talked out of her being a COTF, but it worked and I am well now.  I imagine she sees from everywhere and that's just her crib or where she meets the outlaws.  I mean I wouldn't tell those boys were I really live.  Summerhall  is in the Marches not far from Harvest Hall actually.  There are some great ideas about them there hollow hills, if you look for Wizz the Smith I believe he does a beautiful job explaining all of it.  

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

No worries, I am obsessed with magic swords and more importantly the heroes who will wield them.  We all have our kinks.    I had to be talked out of her being a COTF, but it worked and I am well now.  I imagine she sees from everywhere and that's just her crib or where she meets the outlaws.  I mean I wouldn't tell those boys were I really live.  Summerhall  is in the Marches not far from Harvest Hall actually.  There are some great ideas about them there hollow hills, if you look for Wizz the Smith I believe he does a beautiful job explaining all of it.  

I’m not so sure…

“She will leave on the morrow, with us,” Lord Beric assured the little woman. “We’re taking her to Riverrun, to her mother.”“Nay,” said the dwarf. “You’re not. The black fish holds the rivers now. If it’s the mother you want, seek her at the Twins. For there’s to be a wedding.” She cackled again. “Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you’ll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists.” She drank the last of the wine in four long swallows, flung the skin aside, and pointed her stick at Lord Beric. “I’ll have my payment now. I’ll have the song you promised me.”

 

[Hugorfonics]

25 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

No worries, I am obsessed with magic swords and more importantly the heroes who will wield them.  We all have our kinks. 

Lol yea I guess 

25 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

  I had to be talked out of her being a COTF, but it worked and I am well now.

Lol I'm just such a sceptic that I woulda taken her for a grumkin or snark before a children. But then Leaf was in adwd so I was like oh, I guess they do exist. But way past the wall not way south of the neck.

25 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I imagine she sees from everywhere and that's just her crib or where she meets the outlaws.  I mean I wouldn't tell those boys were I really live.

Eh, they seem nice enough. 

Kissd got that nice quote here that kinda insinuates this to be a place of old god power. So I think the place is special.

Plus she's mad old. How long does it take her to even walk up that hill, let alone traveling from her home. I think that is the crib, or near enough.

25 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Summerhall  is in the Marches not far from Harvest Hall actually.

Summerhall is in Dorne? Weird lol. (Was Summerhall a thing before the Martells married into the IT?)

Something about Summerhall tho, old lady said that. So like, let's go back in time

Targaryen princes are weird. If they do weird shit, it's not weird but normal. But if the princes wife is weird that's a scandal.

Jenny was a scandal, even without being weird but for her to invite this strange old lady to Eggs party just strikes me as so bizarre. The kings court is boujee as hell, I don't think they'd be down for the annoying daughter in law to bring her friend the elf to this pompous party, hence I kinda think Jennys the weird elf

Eta

Wife, not gf

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol yea I guess 

Lol I'm just such a sceptic that I woulda taken her for a grumkin or snark before a children. But then Leaf was in adwd so I was like oh, I guess they do exist. But way past the wall not way south of the neck.

Eh, they seem nice enough. 

Kissd got that nice quote here that kinda insinuates this to be a place of old god power. So I think the place is special.

Plus she's mad old. How long does it take her to even walk up that hill, let alone traveling from her home. I think that is the crib, or near enough.

Summerhall is in Dorne? Weird lol. (Was Summerhall a thing before the Martells married into the IT?)

Something about Summerhall tho, old lady said that. So like, let's go back in time

Targaryen princes are weird. If they do weird shit, it's not weird but normal. But if the princes wife is weird that's a scandal.

Jenny was a scandal, even without being weird but for her to invite this strange old lady to Eggs party just strikes me as so bizarre. The kings court is boujee as hell, I don't think they'd be down for the annoying daughter in law to bring her friend the elf to this pompous party, hence I kinda think Jennys the weird elf

Eta

Wife, not gf

There isn't enough on Jenny of Oldstones.  You could make it all up and have a great time with it.  She does sound like a freaky chick.  Looks like I am properly corrected and kissdbyfire gave some good stuff on the location of the hill, but if you want more that hollow hills essay gets quoted all the time.  

I dunno, everything about the Targs is weird if you ask me.  Summerhall is every bit as strange as the maidenvault because Targaryens are just weird.  If the friend is willing to tell fortunes I guess this is akin to the contemporary masseuse at the party.  Does seem strange to take your buddy girl with you though...wonder whose idea that was?  

[Corvo the Crow]

So wait, Clydas isn't secretly a Targaryen?

Quote

"Lord Snow?" Clydas peered at him closely with his dim pink eyes. "Are you … unwell? You seem …"

 

[Hugorfonics]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

There isn't enough on Jenny of Oldstones.  You could make it all up and have a great time with it.  She does sound like a freaky chick. Looks like I am properly corrected and kissdbyfire gave some good stuff on the location of the hill, but if you want more that hollow hills essay gets quoted all the time.

I dunno, everything about the Targs is weird if you ask me. Summerhall is every bit as strange as the maidenvault because Targaryens are just weird. If the friend is willing to tell fortunes I guess this is akin to the contemporary masseuse at the party. Does seem strange to take your buddy girl with you though...wonder whose idea that was?

I think there's enough Jenny tho that it's not ludicrous for her to appear later in the story. Like Ashara and Bloodraven. And like the others, she sounds fun.

So maidenvault is just locking up the princesses in the castle? Very weird but very boujee medieval too. Which I think lines up well with a bunch of pretentious startled on lookers at the in laws hundred year old friend. I guess it's possible for them to be so upset they'd just, blow everything up? But imo it's more likely that prince Duncan is smart enough to not smack the bees nest.

(Although maybe your right, fortune tellers are a cool party attraction and the king was Egg who we knew at least as a kid to be chill)

 

But like, history is funny and stories can blend with each other. I think it's possible that Jenny foretold some dark shit or Azor Ahai shit or whatever and through legend and retelling in story she became the friend of Jenny which would kinda help explain how she's still alive, or who this old magical lady is. 

 

I mean she takes this song really hard. Why is she crushing on her friends romance? Like everyone wants their friend to be happy, but you crush on yours

[Mourning Star]

To be fair, you listed about a dozen clear examples of secret identities, still managed to miss some good ones (like Jon!), and then are acting surprised that people look for others? In a story where there are people who can literally change their appearance.

I know there are crazy theories out there, and I'll admit to writing a few of my own. It's likely many of them are wrong, mine included. But, I think it's far more ridiculous to suggest that they are all wrong. I think "identity" itself is one of the major themes of the series.

Now sorting the good theories from the bad, that's a trick.

Just for fun, because it's one example that I really like which you missed, and there was talk of the Ghost of Highheart:

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

Lem Lemoncloak is, in my opinion, very likely the Richard Lonmouth, The Knight of Skulls and Kisses.

Richard Lonmouth was the squire to Rhaegar Targaryen, and was knighted by him.

You must be a lackwit, boy. We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in a tourney in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate.

He swore to identify the mystery knight, The Knight of the Laughing Tree (another secret identity!).

"I cannot eat a silver stag, nor ride one. A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak." The little woman cackled. "Aye, a sloppy kiss, a bit of tongue. It has been too long, too long. His mouth will taste of lemons, and mine of bones. I am too old."
"Aye," Lem complained. "Too old for wine and kisses. All you'll get from me is the flat of my sword, crone."
"My hair comes out in handfuls and no one has kissed me for a thousand years. It is hard to be so old. Well, I will have a song then. A song from Tom o' Sevens, for my news."

And...

"Dreams," grumbled Lem Lemoncloak, "what good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?"
"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now."

Now at first this may seem a ridiculous and contrived connection from the quotes above. But if you go back and reread, I think it's a really good theory.

The buxom red-haired innkeep howled with pleasure at the sight of them, then promptly set to tweaking them. "Greenbeard, is it? Or Greybeard? Mother take mercy, when did you get so old? Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You're afraid all the piss will wash out and we'll see you're really a knight o' the Kingsguard! And Tom o' Sevens, you randy old goat! You come to see that son o' yours? Well, you're too late, he's off riding with that bloody Huntsman. And don't tell me he's not yours!"

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

To be fair, you listed about a dozen clear examples of secret identities

I wasn't trying to make a comprehensive list.

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

and then are acting surprised that people look for others?

I'm not surprised people are looking for them at all. The first thing I said was that I liked them myself. 

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

But, I think it's far more ridiculous to suggest that they are all wrong

That would be ridiculous. But I never suggested that.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

It’s possible that some people take it too far, but it’s hard to blame them given that secret identities are so common in the series.

[Mourning Star]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I wasn't trying to make a comprehensive list.

I'm not surprised people are looking for them at all. The first thing I said was that I liked them myself. 

That would be ridiculous. But I never suggested that.

Ok then, If you were looking for a more direct response:

 but people seem absolutely convinced that all sorts of characters are secretly other characters that we've been told are dead or somewhere else and so on. I think we need to take a step back and look at how secret identities are actually presented to us in the book. They are usually made fairly obvious.

All sorts of characters have secret identities.

They are not all fairly obvious.

I don't know how you could possibly take secret identities further than this author has already.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

It’s possible that some people take it too far, but it’s hard to blame them given that secret identities are so common in the series.

Exactly this. Just the other day I suggested that Mel is Bloodraven's daughter and even presented some "hints". @kissdbyfire said people are doing a lot of wishful thinking and backwards searching on things that they find cool etc. and she is absolutely correct on that account, but the problem is, GRRM has so overused this, that smallest of things that may seem to have a connection with another are now thought of evidence, even though they may not have been intended to be hints connecting a thing to another and are just coincidences. 

My evidence/hints were that heart shaped faces are only mentioned a handful of time and for just three people(haven't read fire and blood) Mel, Jeyne Westerling and Shiera Seastar whose mention is not even in the books but in a SSM. Mel having very pale sking and red eyes, like an albino,  hair dyes existing and being used extensively. One of the few and the most renowned Albino character being the lover of one of the few heart shaped faced characters.

Now, can all these just be coincidences and not hints? Yes, may very well be, but the problem is many of the so many hidden characters that were later revealed had hints such as these and that is if they even had any to begin with.

 

[Curled Finger]

Then of course there are not so secret identities that may or may not become focal points as in the case of young Gendry or  Edric Storm or Ned Dayne.  Gendry is a blacksmith, which could come in extremely handy should weapons be needed in the near future.  Gendry's also a knight which gets overlooked an awful lot, too much I think.  Yet all I ever see is Gendry shipped with Arya, which I think is a huge misuse and dismissal of his character.  

Edric and Ned are MIA, though theories abound regarding their whereabouts.  This is fun.  Will they claim their rightful places?  Will it matter because after all, they are but little boys, though Dayne is a squire...

[Phylum of Alexandria]

I'll admit that I did not pick up on significance of the "Gravedigger" during Brienne's time on the Quiet Isle when I first read AFFC. And when my friend brought up the idea that it's Sandor, I thought it was completely absurd. Then I considered the evidence, and concluded that it was intentional, but ridiculous on GRRM's part. Then I thought about it some more, and found that it could work quite nicely for the story...though it all depends on how it's executed going forward.

And that's pretty much how I experience all of the better theories for hidden identities. Derision, resistance, then a wary acceptance that's conditional upon how GRRM lands it later on, and what purposes it's used to serve.

I won't deny that I worry about how cluttered his story now seems, how overegged the pudding may be. But I've been thoroughly happy with his execution on so many fronts, I tend to trust that he'll be able to make the right decisions in these respects as well. Though, perhaps this is one reason why he's been taking so long on the execution front...

[Curled Finger]

19 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I'll admit that I did not pick up on significance of the "Gravedigger" during Brienne's time on the Quiet Isle when I first read AFFC. And when my friend brought up the idea that it's Sandor, I thought it was completely absurd. Then I considered the evidence, and concluded that it was intentional, but ridiculous on GRRM's part. Then I thought about it some more, and found that it could work quite nicely for the story...though it all depends on how it's executed going forward.

Don't feel badly.  I never realized The Hound died so The Gravedigger was astounding to me.  That is, that anyone thought he was dead in the first place. 

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I mean she takes this song really hard. Why is she crushing on her friends romance? Like everyone wants their friend to be happy, but you crush on yours

I think you've done it, Watson!  The GOHH is not a friend, but in fact Jenny's Mother!  This explains the reaction to the song.   Run with it.  

[Corvo the Crow]

6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I think you've done it, Watson!  The GOHH is not a friend, but in fact Jenny's Mother!  This explains the reaction to the song.   Run with it.  

Elementary!

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them, but people seem absolutely convinced that all sorts of characters are secretly other characters that we've been told are dead or somewhere else and so on. I think we need to take a step back and look at how secret identities are actually presented to us in the book. They are usually made fairly obvious.

1. Being able to spell a character's real name from their false name:

• Alleras -> Sarella
• 'Arstan Whitebeard' -> Barristan

2. Clear hints as to their appearance being similar:

• The Description of Jaqen's changed face lines up almost perfectly with 'The Alchemist' who kills Pate.
• Ser Gregor and 'Robert Strong'.
• The Man in the Cave with Bran -> Bloodraven.

3. It can be reasonably inferred that X is Y because we know for a fact X cannot be X as X is dead and Y is behind it and stands to gain from impersonating X: 

• The Situation with 'The Alchemist' and 'Pate' - note Samwell even thinks there is something he mistrusts about 'Pate' giving us a hint.

4. We know X is Y because we are straight up told or shown it:

• Sansa -> Alayne
• Tyrion -> Hugor Hill
• Arya -> Cat, Beth, Mercy etc.
• Varys -> Rugen
• Young Griff -> F/Aegon
• Etc.

5. Hints in the Text strongly imply X is Y (for remaining secret identities that don't fit into the above categories):

• Bloodraven -> Maynard Plumm

So as we can see from the above, every time a 'secret identity' is presented to us, it is made quite obvious who it really is. So I don't think we should be expecting anything massively out of the left field. We should be checking anagrams and such. And when considering how they would benefit from a secret identity it shouldn't require a massive convoluted plot. It should be fairly obvious if someone is benefiting, and why they are using a secret identity, otherwise I find it unlikely. All in all I think if there are any secret identities in play it should be fairly obvious (by the standards of this forum). It shouldn't need a big convoluted explanation, it should be something the average reader willing to do a bit of close reading and pay close attention to detail can reasonably figure out, most importantly there should be hints here and there that we are meant to think it is a secret identity!

Thank you for reading.

In times of war, your name can get you killed. Given all the secret IDs we know about today, it stands to reason that there were just as many in the past, particularly among women and children. So even if a secret ID has no obvious clues does not mean it cannot be. Septa Lemore, for example, sticks out like a sore thumb from the rest of the crew on the Shy Maid, but there is no real indication as to who she might be. And even Varys. Is he really who he says he is? Is he even a eunuch? His story about the wizard is dubious at best.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, John Suburbs said:

Septa Lemore, for example, sticks out like a sore thumb from the rest of the crew on the Shy Maid, but there is no real indication as to who she might be.

Yes but there are hints that we should suspect her in the first place. Whereas some of the other people suggested to be someone's secret ID have a perfectly reasonable backstory own their own and just don't have the same hints that we should doubt them. Lemore tells Aegon 'You are not the only one who needs to hide.'

5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So even if a secret ID has no obvious clues does not mean it cannot be.

Obviously it's possible but I would expect it to have at least some clues that the average person could decipher if they put in the effort.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Exactly this. Just the other day I suggested that Mel is Bloodraven's daughter and even presented some "hints". @kissdbyfire said people are doing a lot of wishful thinking and backwards searching on things that they find cool etc. and she is absolutely correct on that account, but the problem is, GRRM has so overused this, that smallest of things that may seem to have a connection with another are now thought of evidence, even though they may not have been intended to be hints connecting a thing to another and are just coincidences. 

To be fair - to myself  - there is a lot of 'oh this would be so kewl, let's backtrack and find "evidence" for it'. A lot lot lot. 

As to Martin having overused it, I don't really agree w/ it. He has used it quite bit, to be sure, but for the most part the official secret identities in the books are secret in-universe and not to the reader. Arya and her various disguises, Sansa/Alayne, Tyrion and his aliases, Theon/Reek, and many others. Then we have a slightly different category, where a character's true identity may appear to be hidden from the reader (and some characters as well) initially, but the answers are right there and very easy to figure out. Such as Alleras/Sarella, The Hound/The Gravedigger, Jaqen/The Achemist. 

And there probably will be a few reveals in the future, like Quaithe, Lemore, and maybe a few others I'm forgetting atm. 

What will not happen however is that all these secret identity theories readers have been talking about snce the dawn of time-  or what feels like the dawn of time - will be revealed to be accurate. That would indeed be overdoing it to a ridiculous extent. 

Not every non-PoV character, minor and major, needs a mysterious and intriguing backstory. In fact, the vast majority will be revealed to be exactly who they claim imo. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

My evidence/hints were that heart shaped faces are only mentioned a handful of time and for just three people(haven't read fire and blood) Mel, Jeyne Westerling and Shiera Seastar whose mention is not even in the books but in a SSM. Mel having very pale sking and red eyes, like an albino,  hair dyes existing and being used extensively. One of the few and the most renowned Albino character being the lover of one of the few heart shaped faced characters.

But there are only so many shapes of faces one can use... On the other hand, there's no indication from anyone pointing to Mel being an albino. The GoHH is described as having red eyes and being an albino; does this mean she's connected by blood to Bloodraven? Is she Shiera? And how does Mel end up being sold as a slave in some slave market somewhere in Essos (I assume)?

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Now, can all these just be coincidences and not hints? Yes, may very well be, but the problem is many of the so many hidden characters that were later revealed had hints such as these and that is if they even had any to begin with.

 

Give me a couple of examples of previously hidden identities that had clues like these... I''m curious, because I'm thinking about it and can't think of any. 

46 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Obviously it's possible but I would expect it to have at least some clues that the average person could decipher if they put in the effort.

This. 

Many if not most of these secret identities are only possible because they're not impossible. Not the best foundation for a theory imo. 

[James Arryn]

True confession: while I admit that <- is my picture, my name is not exactly James Arryn.