Are People Taking Secret Identities Too Far?

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

True confession: while I admit that <- is my picture, my name is not exactly James Arryn. 

Nooo...Cannot believe you would lie to me like this, 'James'. My heart is broken. It will take years to recover my ability to trust anyone again...

[Mourning Star]

38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Give me a couple of examples of previously hidden identities that had clues like these... I''m curious, because I'm thinking about it and can't think of any. 

Maynard Plumm (Bloodraven)

Alleras the Sphinx (Sarella)

Bran and Rickon (the millers boys)

Reek (Ramsey Bolton)

Arstan Whitebeard (Barristan Selmy)

Rattleshirt (Mance)

Renly (Garlan Tyrell)

Pate (Jaqen Hagar)

The list of secret identities in this series is absurdly long. The number of clues before the reveal vary wildly, from made clear to the reader, to wildly difficult to have guessed in advance, to probably missed entirely by most readers even when "revealed".

38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Obviously it's possible but I would expect it to have at least some clues that the average person could decipher if they put in the effort.

This. 

Many if not most of these secret identities are only possible because they're not impossible. Not the best foundation for a theory imo. 

I don't know why anyone would have this expectation in this series.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I think you've done it, Watson!  The GOHH is not a friend, but in fact Jenny's Mother!  This explains the reaction to the song.   Run with it.  

Yea I guess, that'd hit hard. Maybe it's her daughter, although that also would require lots of explanation.

(I mean it's a sad song, people cry from songs all the time even if it's not about them or their kid...)

We know something is sus. She's alive, whoever she was what's she doing now? Leaf is alive but isn't all Master Yoda with the cane like the Ghost is, so imo if we go for the theatrics, and I think we should, it'd still be her.

I didn't do a great job of explaining that one line of thought yesterday, was gonna do something on how Tyrion was spotted at the ghosts hang out like Cat was spotted after Renly died which leads to confusion and misdirection. But that wasn't really what I wanted to say so nevermind.

But now that you say momma, that got me thinking extra old. Like who's the oldest lady? And here I think the analogy works well

Quote

"I could tell you the story about Brandon the Builder," Old Nan said. "That was always your favorite."

Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Maybe one of the other Brandons had liked that story. Sometimes Nan would talk to him as if he were her Brandon, the baby she had nursed all those years ago, and sometimes she confused him with his uncle Brandon, who was killed by the Mad King before Bran was even born. She had lived so long, Mother had told him once, that all the Brandon Starks had become one person in her head.

 

Edited March 2 by Hugorfonics

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I don't know why anyone would have this expectation in this series.

I do expect good writing from the series. I do not consider someone being revealed to have a secret identity good writing if there are no hints of some variety in the text that could lead you to suspect it. I am not saying we should all be able to guess exactly. But there should be some sign. Otherwise it comes entirely out of the left field and looks like stuff is being made up for shock value.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Maynard Plumm (Bloodraven)

I was thinking main books, but yeah. And it’s revealed and pretty obvious from the get-go, so like the ones I brought up, some of which you’ve repeated here. 

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Alleras the Sphinx (Sarella)

Bran and Rickon (the millers boys)

Reek (Ramsey Bolton)

Arstan Whitebeard (Barristan Selmy)

Rattleshirt (Mance)

Renly (Garlan Tyrell)

Pate (Jaqen Hagar)

The list of secret identities in this series is absurdly long. The number of clues before the reveal vary wildly, from made clear to the reader, to wildly difficult to have guessed in advance, to probably missed entirely by most readers even when "revealed".

As I’ve said in my previous reply, these are all pretty obvious to the reader. And even if not that obvious, they’ve all been resolved in-universe and to readers. 
And all of these made sense, they added something to the story. The ones I think are unsupported add nothing to a story that is already awash w/ hidden identities. Like Old Nan is the 3EC; HR is the Mad Mouse or the HS - whichever you prefer; Jyanna Reed is Ashara Dayne; Daario is Euron; Mance is Rhaegar and so many others. All these have in their favour is that they’re not impossible, which is a very poor foundation for a theory imo. 

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I don't know why anyone would have this expectation in this series.

What expectation?

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea I guess, that'd hit hard. Maybe it's her daughter, although that also would require lots of explanation.

(I mean it's a sad song, people cry from songs all the time even if it's not about them or their kid...)

We know something is sus. She's alive, whoever she was what's she doing now? Leaf is alive but isn't all Master Yoda with the cane like the Ghost is, so imo if we go for the theatrics, and I think we should, it'd still be her.

I didn't do a great job of explaining that one line of thought yesterday, was gonna do something on how Tyrion was spotted at the ghosts hang out like Cat was spotted after Renly died which leads to confusion and misdirection. But that wasn't really what I wanted to say so nevermind.

But now that you say momma, that got me thinking extra old. Like who's the oldest lady? And here I think the analogy works well

 

I was mostly having fun with the mom thing, but there was a very intimate connection there, at least for Ghost, um The Ghost, sorry, forgot we already had a Ghost for a second.  That her price is her Jenny's song is very sad and speaks of lost love, whatever that brand of love may have been.  The only songs that make me cry, rare they be, are for my own ghosts.  I am often reminded of this in the moving and too often memorials Martin pens for his dying friends.  He feels his losses deeply.  Perhaps TGoHH is a bit of our author himself? 

Your analogy was brilliant.  Point well made, Ser.  The identity of Old Nan is long debated.  I hope to have it revealed or at least further hinted at in Dunk & Egg.  Any good guesses?  

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

What expectation?

I think it is the expectation that average people should be able to decipher the mysteries of the series if they put in the work. If that is the referred to expectation, I don't see what is so unreasonable about it. The series is for people outside of this forum as well, just because we on the forum find something 'obvious' or whatever doesn't mean most people would. The mysteries of the story are not being written just with all the highbrow users of this forum in mind.

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I do expect good writing from the series. I do not consider someone being revealed to have a secret identity good writing if there are no hints of some variety in the text that could lead you to suspect it. I am not saying we should all be able to guess exactly. But there should be some sign. Otherwise it comes entirely out of the left field and looks like stuff is being made up for shock value.

Peaches, can you offer an example of an absurd or completely ridiculous alternate identity idea you have read?  I know I have read many, but can't recall one off the top of my head.  The silly things amuse then leave me.  I think you're right and some things are entirely made for their entertainment value or shock value as you say, but some of them are really funny.  You have seen me be silly in every contact we've made.  Sometimes it is my job to be absurd, I can't help it.  But you are bright and quite funny yourself.  I want to know what bugs you, gets under your skin in a more base way I can understand.   Nothing in the OP gives me anything to work with.  Everything you've said is right and you can still be silly and funny with the parody within the topic.  Isn't that what the shock value stuff is?  

[Mourning Star]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I was thinking main books, but yeah. And it’s revealed and pretty obvious from the get-go, so like the ones I brought up, some of which you’ve repeated here. 

You think Maynard Plumm being Bloodraven was obvious? 

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

As I’ve said in my previous reply, these are all pretty obvious to the reader. And even if not that obvious, they’ve all been resolved in-universe and to readers. 

Sort of feels like you are asking an impossible ask.

Either a secret identity has been revealed to readers or not.

I can give you examples that have been revealed, and theories of ones that have not, but it's impossible to find an example that is both.

I think many of these examples I gave, and given above fit the description of having hard to find clues which appear before the reveal to the reader.

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And all of these made sense, they added something to the story. The ones I think are unsupported add nothing to a story that is already awash w/ hidden identities. Like Old Nan is the 3EC; HR is the Mad Mouse or the HS - whichever you prefer; Jyanna Reed is Ashara Dayne; Daario is Euron; Mance is Rhaegar and so many others. All these have in their favour is that they’re not impossible, which is a very poor foundation for a theory imo. 

I disagree with you. I don't agree with all the theories you posted, and you are totally entitled to make up your own opinion, but it sure seems like you are setting the bar wildly higher than the examples which already exist in the story.

You are asking for proof which is inherently impossible for a theory in an incomplete series.

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

What expectation?

Obviously it's possible but I would expect it to have at least some clues that the average person could decipher if they put in the effort.

This. 

Many if not most of these secret identities are only possible because they're not impossible. Not the best foundation for a theory imo. 

I disagree that "not being impossible" is the basis for every theory. 

And I think the expectation that secret identities will be obvious to average readers is ridiculous.

Edited March 2 by Mourning Star

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

But there are only so many shapes of faces one can use... On the other hand, there's no indication from anyone pointing to Mel being an albino. The GoHH is described as having red eyes and being an albino; does this mean she's connected by blood to Bloodraven? Is she Shiera? And how does Mel end up being sold as a slave in some slave market somewhere in Essos (I assume)?

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But there are only three people given this shape(and only two in main books) and while Melisandre's has been mentioned several times, Jeyne's has only been mentioned once, so it may as well have been an error like Jeyne's hips or Renly's eyes. Add to that the other things and it raises flags and as I said, it may not even be his intention for Mel's to be BR and SS love child but what we have at hand makes a connection possible and the overuse of secret identities make people make those possible connections instead of just dismissing them as coincidence.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Give me a couple of examples of previously hidden identities that had clues like these... I''m curious, because I'm thinking about it and can't think of any. 

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I have already been beaten to it.

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

As I’ve said in my previous reply, these are all pretty obvious to the reader. And even if not that obvious, they’ve all been resolved in-universe and to readers. 
And all of these made sense, they added something to the story. The ones I think are unsupported add nothing to a story that is already awash w/ hidden identities. Like Old Nan is the 3EC; HR is the Mad Mouse or the HS - whichever you prefer; Jyanna Reed is Ashara Dayne; Daario is Euron; Mance is Rhaegar and so many others. All these have in their favour is that they’re not impossible, which is a very poor foundation for a theory imo. 

I like one of those.  How many demerits off for each one?  

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think it is the expectation that average people should be able to decipher the mysteries of the series if they put in the work. If that is the referred to expectation, I don't see what is so unreasonable about it. The series is for people outside of this forum as well, just because we on the forum find something 'obvious' or whatever doesn't mean most people would. The mysteries of the story are not being written just with all the highbrow users of this forum in mind.

Well said. I myself have noticed or rather learned some things only after I started reading this forum, and since then have added many a thing to "Wow I never noticed this" thread, some of which were found by others, though few in number, years back or perhaps only mere months before me, while there are yet other things that I have not found a single mention of before I brought them. It is only after starting to read the story not as a story but a thing with hidden messages I've started finding them.

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And all of these made sense, they added something to the story. The ones I think are unsupported add nothing to a story that is already awash w/ hidden identities. Like Old Nan is the 3EC; HR is the Mad Mouse or the HS - whichever you prefer; Jyanna Reed is Ashara Dayne; Daario is Euron; Mance is Rhaegar and so many others. All these have in their favour is that they’re not impossible, which is a very poor foundation for a theory imo. 

32 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

You forgot my favorite, Benjen is Daario, which was quite the rage when I first joined the forums 

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Peaches, can you offer an example of an absurd or completely ridiculous alternate identity idea you have read?

I would but then people would disagree that it is absurd in the first place. I will attempt to distil certain elements that I find silly.  I find Mance = Rhaegar really silly. Firstly, we are given no reason to suspect Mance is not Mance. Mance as his own character has a completely plausible backstory. Secondly, we are given no hint that Rhaegar is not dead. Rhaegar died in front of thousands of people in a huge battle. He is confirmed dead by multiple characters. Fourthly, this theory and others revolve extensively around glamours. This just opens Pandora's box and cheapens the magic. With this you can basically make up whatever you want and it is non-falsifiable. Fifthly, it ignores the tragic narrative that Rhaegar's death has. This also goes for Authur Dayne is still alive theories. All of them cheapen all the already existing characters. Can't some of them just be interesting characters in their own right?

It is not this alone that I find wearing unless it is really repetitive. It is when people get annoyed that I don't find these theories plausible or disagree.

Edited March 2 by Craving Peaches

[LongRider]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

You forgot my favorite, Benjen is Daario, which was quite the rage when I first joined the forums 

I was looking at some listings of old series and the Howland Reed is the High Sparrow jumped out at me.  Never was interested in the theory myself, but it was real hot in the forums for a while.

[LongRider]

4 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I'll admit that I did not pick up on significance of the "Gravedigger" during Brienne's time on the Quiet Isle when I first read AFFC. And when my friend brought up the idea that it's Sandor, I thought it was completely absurd. Then I considered the evidence, and concluded that it was intentional, but ridiculous on GRRM's part. Then I thought about it some more, and found that it could work quite nicely for the story...though it all depends on how it's executed going forward.

The Gravedigger is Sandor is something I picked up myself and was happy when I found threads here about that.  That's been about it for me, and being a Sandor fan, was glad it find it. 

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

And I think the expectation that secret identities will be obvious to average readers is ridiculous.

Edited 10 minutes ago by Mourning Star

People have not being saying this, at least I haven't. What I am saying is that I expect them to be decipherable to the average reader who puts in the work, does close reading, etc.

[Hugorfonics]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I was mostly having fun with the mom thing

Yea I kinda rolled my eyes lol, but you said run with it. And I follow my orders!

 

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

at least for Ghost, um The Ghost, sorry, forgot we already had a Ghost for a second

Lol, I'm with you

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That her price is her Jenny's song is very sad and speaks of lost love, whatever that brand of love may have been.  The only songs that make me cry, rare they be, are for my own ghosts.  I am often reminded of this in the moving and too often memorials Martin pens for his dying friends.  He feels his losses deeply.  Perhaps TGoHH is a bit of our author himself? 

Yea as we said hes a mad man. I like that one SSM where they were like how big did you smile when you killed Joff? And he was like, "I made him, he was mine. It didn't feel great" (or something to that effect)

I think GRRM is super passionate which is one of the many reasons he wrote this masterpiece. 

Although whoever the ghost is, she saw some shit. How many get to witness a world shattering catastrophe? But Rheagar (I said I was obsessed with bards) wrote mad tunes at Summerhall! Some were probably made into works that touched on the personal touch of Rhegar and the family he never knew and stuff, but she doesn't get as much emotion from that as some lady with flowers in her hair.

So I concur, probably personal.

(Maybe the ghost hooked up with Jenny? But then she'd be jealous of prince Duncan not swooning over his flower picking)

16 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Your analogy was brilliant.  Point well made, Ser.  The identity of Old Nan is long debated.  I hope to have it revealed or at least further hinted at in Dunk & Egg.  Any good guesses?  

Ty!

Lol, idk, Jenny with flowers in her hair?

Some lady. I once did math but I'm not good at math or good at remembering things so... She's what? 100+? 100 years ago was dunk and egg times? The wolves of Winterfell is supposed to be the next dunk and egg which I think will make Nan a character in it. (Maybe she's like an elf herself? Destined to train Brandon the Stark because she keeps not doing it right?)

(But I think the next dunk and egg will have these sisters and cousins or whatever scrapping each other like Sansa Arya and fArya will probably do in modern times)

[Corvo the Crow]

4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I would but then people would disagree that it is absurd in the first place. I will attempt to distil certain elements that I find silly.  I find Mance = Rhaegar really silly. Firstly, we are given no reason to suspect Mance is not Mance. Mance as his own character has a completely plausible backstory. Secondly, we are given no hint that Rhaegar is not dead. Rhaegar died in front of thousands of people in a huge battle. He is confirmed dead by multiple characters. Fourthly, this theory and others revolve extensively around glamours. This just opens Pandora's box and cheapens the magic. With this you can basically make up whatever you want and it is non-falsifiable. Fifthly, it ignores the tragic narrative that Rhaegar's death has. This also goes for Authur Dayne is still alive theories. All of them cheapen all the already existing characters. Can't some of them just be interesting characters in their own right?

 

I don't agree Mance = Rhaegar(nor is he Arthur Dayne and definitely not Jon's father!) and find it laughable, but unless his body was recovered(can't recall) Rhaegar surviving requires a whole lot less than you think. We have Garlan replacing Renly by wearing his armor and some Andal fanatic replacing an Andal warlord while fighting against Royces.

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I would but then people would disagree that it is absurd in the first place. I will attempt to distil certain elements that I find silly.  I find Mance = Rhaegar really silly. Firstly, we are given no reason to suspect Mance is not Mance. Mance as his own character has a completely plausible backstory. Secondly, we are given no hint that Rhaegar is not dead. Rhaegar died in front of thousands of people in a huge battle. He is confirmed dead by multiple characters. Fourthly, this theory and others revolve extensively around glamours. This just opens Pandora's box and cheapens the magic. With this you can basically make up whatever you want and it is non-falsifiable. Fifthly, it ignores the tragic narrative that Rhaegar's death has. This also goes for Authur Dayne is still alive theories. 

OK I get it.  I am scouring my very poor memory to see...Selmy?...was Selmy with Rhaegar when he died?  Hrm?  I thought anyone = Mance really silly for a long time.  I only recently had Arthur is alive and = any one explained well to me.  I don't care if it has any basis, it's a neat story.  I don't have to buy it to like it.  It's just fun.  Fun to think about and ask questions about and watch people talk about.  If you aren't interested in a subject that way I totally get where it would bug ya.