Are People Taking Secret Identities Too Far?

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, LongRider said:

I was looking at some listings of old series and the Howland Reed is the High Sparrow jumped out at me.  Never was interested in the theory myself, but it was real hot in the forums for a while.

Everyone knows Howland is Shadrich, HS is just what he does as a hobby in his free time.

[LongRider]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Everyone knows Howland is Shadrich, HS is just what he does as a hobby in his free time.

Gag, the HR is the MM theory leaves me cold and really don't like it.

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Rhaegar surviving requires a whole lot less than you think. We have Garlan replacing Renly by wearing his armor and some Andal fanatic replacing an Andal warlord while fighting against Royces.

It's possible, but we aren't really given anything to suggest it happened. And the point is that:

Quote

Afterward, Ser Barristan told her that her brother Rhaegar would have been proud of her. Dany remembered the words Ser Jorah had spoken at Astapor: Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.

Rhaegar surviving just undermines it. These theories, some of them, I just feel like they cheapen the whole thing. They make the story worse. If they are true, the story undermines its own message.

[Curled Finger]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Some lady. I once did math but I'm not good at math or good at remembering things so... She's what? 100+? 100 years ago was dunk and egg times? The wolves of Winterfell is supposed to be the next dunk and egg which I think will make Nan a character in it. (Maybe she's like an elf herself? Destined to train Brandon the Stark because she keeps not doing it right?)

 

I think Old Nan is about Old Walder Frey's age--late 90s?  Just so happens a 4 year-old Walder is in D&E so there is no reason on Planetos a yery Young Nan couldn't show up at Winterfell, maybe be born there! 

[Curled Finger]

27 minutes ago, LongRider said:

The Gravedigger is Sandor is something I picked up myself and was happy when I found threads here about that.  That's been about it for me, and being a Sandor fan, was glad it find it. 

Tyrion possibly having Targaryen origins is a thing I picked up on myself in Dance when Selmy tells Dany about her father.  I went straight for Tyrion, not the twins, I was already aware of the traits in him.  Blew my mind.  

[kissdbyfire]

45 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think it is the expectation that average people should be able to decipher the mysteries of the series if they put in the work. If that is the referred to expectation, I don't see what is so unreasonable about it. The series is for people outside of this forum as well, just because we on the forum find something 'obvious' or whatever doesn't mean most people would. The mysteries of the story are not being written just with all the highbrow users of this forum in mind.

Yeah, I agree w/ you. I have friends who are not on the forum who have read the books but are 'normies' in the sense that they're not like all of us here. The vast majority didn't pick up on any of the mysteries, not just the identity stuff. My mum for instance, is sure Jon isn't Ned's bastard but she doesn't accept R+L+=J; she thinks Robert Baratheon is Jon's dad, and it doesn't matter that I've exlpained the timeline one million times, she just goes into denial mode and says, 'nah'.

Others didn't pick up on it but but like it when it is presented to them and others still just make a landscape face like, 'whatever, don't care'. 

And that's part of the beauty of Martin's style... you can read it "superficially" like any YA fantasy, you can dig deeper in search of hidden things and plots and foreshadowing, and you can even go deeper still where almost nothing is what it seems to be. I'm in the middle category, I suppose. 

44 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

You think Maynard Plumm being Bloodraven was obvious? 

Yeah. Didn't you?

44 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Sort of feels like you are asking an impossible ask.

Either a secret identity has been revealed to readers or not.

I can give you examples that have been revealed, and theories of ones that have not, but it's impossible to find an example that is both.

I think many of these examples I gave, and given above fit the description of having hard to find clues which appear before the reveal to the reader.

I disagree.

And when I asked Corvo for a couple of examples similar to Mel being Shiera an Bloodraven's daughter is based solely on the description of the shape of her face. 

And no, @Corvo the Crow Mel being an albino is not hinted at IMO. Is it possible? I suppose so, but only because it isn't impossible. The one hint that could be argued supports this is the fact that Mel has a heart-shaped face. 

44 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I disagree with you. I don't agree with all the theories you posted, and you are totally entitled to make up your own opinion, but it sure seems like you are setting the bar wildly higher than the examples which already exist in the story.

Sorry, but I don't think I am.

44 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

You are asking for proof which is inherently impossible for a theory in an incomplete series.

I disagree that "not being impossible" is the basis for every theory

 

Can't break this up, so replies in red: 

I didn't say it was the basis for every theory, I said all the ones I mentioned. I stand by that, even if I acknowledge I may be wrong. 

 

And I think the expectation that secret identities will be obvious to average readers is ridiculous.

 

I didn't say that either. I said the ones I brought up were pretty obvious. IMO. ETA: pretty obvious for those readers like us here, who are on forums, who are looking deeper at the books than people like my mum etc.

If any of the ones I said I find unfounded turn out to be true, then I will say I did not see theory X coming and that it wasn't obvious.

 

 

 

43 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But there are only three people given this shape(and only two in main books) and while Melisandre's has been mentioned several times, Jeyne's has only been mentioned once, so it may as well have been an error like Jeyne's hips or Renly's eyes. Add to that the other things and it raises flags and as I said, it may not even be his intention for Mel's to be BR and SS love child but what we have at hand makes a connection possible and the overuse of secret identities make people make those possible connections instead of just dismissing them as coincidence.

I have already been beaten to it.

How many ways can one describe the shape of a face? Long, round, heart-shaped... what else? So, if her face was long, would she be Brandon's bastard?

And look at what you did there... the heart-shaped face is an important clue, but Jeyne's probably a mistake. What can I say?

 

43 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I like one of those.  How many demerits off for each one?  

Zero demerits! I have my opinions but I also know I could be wrong on absolutely everything! 

[Hugorfonics]

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I think Old Nan is about Old Walder Frey's age--late 90s?  Just so happens a 4 year-old Walder is in D&E so there is no reason on Planetos a yery Young Nan couldn't show up at Winterfell, maybe be born there! 

It's definitely possible. Hell, probable. Shes a person hence if shes not in her late 90s she's in her early 100s. 

People just don't live forever.

But Grumkins? I think there's a decent chance that when Dunk goes to Winterfell he runs into an early 100 your old lady named Nan.

You know I'm big into someone being Azor Ahai, like Dany or Jon. Idk if destiny is a thing, but Theon is walking a path. 

Brandon? He's so seeped. It was Jaimes arrogant ass that really hit me hard. 

Quote

"Then blame those precious gods of yours, who brought the boy to our window and gave him a glimpse of something he was never meant to see."

Could that be true? He always liked climbing (I did too as a kid tho) maybe that's instilled? Or, idk. The tale of Bran, it's beyond him, even when it's all him 

Quote

"A monster," Bran said. The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist.

"Your monster, Brandon Stark."

"Yours," the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer's song of "Yours, yours, yours."

So while Cersei taught Sansa how to act around Petyr or Sandor taught Arya how to act around the faceless, etc; I can't imagine anybody not straight up catching a heart attack right then and there unless properly groomed (for lack of a better word) by Old Nan. 

So, I don't think she's 100 but definitely 100+

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

she thinks Robert Baratheon is Jon's dad, and it doesn't matter that I've exlpained the timeline one million times, she just goes into denial mode and says, 'nah'.

Well that's because any woman in her right mind would chose Robert over Rhaegar 

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Nooo...Cannot believe you would lie to me like this, 'James'. My heart is broken. It will take years to recover my ability to trust anyone again...

If only I could reassure you, CP. Well, James is at least accurate. But the truth is, I have long suspected that many people in here are operating under false names. To be even more frank, I have occasional doubts about Mr. and Mrs. Peaches agreeing on ‘Craving’ long enough to register it.
 

Unless…are you from Florida? 

[Corvo the Crow]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And no, @Corvo the Crow Mel being an albino is not hinted at IMO. Is it possible? I suppose so, but only because it isn't impossible. The one hint that could be argued supports this is the fact that Mel has a heart-shaped face. 

49 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

And what explanation do you have for her red eyes? Have we seen any non-albino's with red eyes? I can't remember a single one so adding her pale skin, going for albino. Only thing that would NOT make her an albino is her hair color, which was explicitly stated to be not like ordinary men's, and that is easily remedied with dye.

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

If only I could reassure you, CP. Well, James is at least accurate. But the truth is, I have long suspected that many people in here are operating under false names. To be even more frank, I have occasional doubts about Mr. and Mrs. Peaches agreeing on ‘Craving’ long enough to register it.

It's...uhh...a description of my present state, as opposed to a name...right...? 

4 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Unless…are you from Florida? 

SCOOOOTLAAAAAND FOREVVVARH!!!

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Have we seen any non-albino's with red eyes?

Me when I cry a lot.

[Mourning Star]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah. Didn't you?

Hell no, that's wild, I felt good about being able to put it together after finishing the story! I know plenty of readers don't even consider it after finishing the tale. Getting it in advance from the textual clues is impressive.

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree.

Fair enough.

[Corvo the Crow]

31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Rhaegar surviving just undermines it. These theories, some of them, I just feel like they cheapen the whole thing. They make the story worse. If they are true, the story undermines its own message.

Agreed, but there are a whole lot more that cheapens the story and done by the author himself, the very subject we are currently discussing is one such.

[kissdbyfire]

29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's possible, but we aren't really given anything to suggest it happened. And the point is that:

Rhaegar surviving just undermines it. These theories, some of them, I just feel like they cheapen the whole thing. They make the story worse. If they are true, the story undermines its own message.

Then there’s this as well:

[What happened to Rhaegar's body?]

Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.

Another thing that happens a lot w/ some theories is it becomes necessary to dismiss anything the author said if it doesn’t fit. And it goes from ‘he meant something else’ to ‘he was lying’, and everything in between. 

[James Arryn]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's...uhh...a description of my present state, as opposed to a name...right...? 

SCOOOOTLAAAAAND FOREVVVARH!!!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland,_Florida

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Mourning Star said:

Hell no, that's wild, I felt good about being able to put it together after finishing the story! Getting it in advance from the textual clues is impressive.

Huh? No, of course I didn’t guess it before I read the story… 

 

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland,_Florida

Fake Scotland 

They wouldn't be laughing if the Darien scheme had succeeded!

[Corvo the Crow]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How many ways can one describe the shape of a face? Long, round, heart-shaped... what else? So, if her face was long, would she be Brandon's bastard?

 

Of these are there just a couple in the entire book?

Quote

And look at what you did there... the heart-shaped face is an important clue, but Jeyne's probably a mistake. What can I say?

Because it has only ever been mentioned once despite the fact that we have seen her through the eyes of more than one PoV and PoVs mentioning her more than once.

 

Tell me, which hips are Jeyne's?

She did not look dangerous. Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child, Jaime decided, but not a girl to lose a kingdom for. Her face was puffy, and there was a scab on her forehead, half-hidden by a lock of brown hair. “What happened there?” he asked her.

When the girl had gone, Catelyn turned back to her father and smoothed the thin white hair across his brow. “An Eddard and a Brandon,” she sighed softly. “And perhaps in time a Hoster. Would you like that?” He did not answer, but she had never expected that he would. As the sound of the rain on the roof mingled with her father’s breathing, she thought about Jeyne. The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said. And good hips, which might be more important.

 

 

[Mourning Star]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Huh? No, of course I didn’t guess it before I read the story… 

Maybe we are just talking past each other... I thought this was in the context of guessing a secret identity before it was revealed, so in this case before Bloodraven shows up as himself.

If the bar is just recognizing the reveal after it is on the page, I'm still not sure the average reader gets this example, but it's a much lower bar, and the point I was trying to illustrate.

Theories about an incomplete series, and future reveals, one would expect to be less easily recognizable. And obviously, even when recognized, there would be no proof available.

I like the Maynard example, because it isn't ever really proven, but is still widely agreed on.