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Why are Targaryens Revered While Freys are Looked Down Upon?


Corvo the Crow

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Freys are a house of around six centuries and are seen as young upstarts and are looked down upon, while Targaryens, the house of sister loving worms if you have trouble remembering them among so many houses of importance, are quite revered. One may argue that it is the result of less than three hundred years of turbulent misrule, one that has been full of civil wars, over Westeros, a misrule that did not even extend to two centuries in some places, but it has nothing to do with it as it was the case even before their violent war of unjust conquest. Freys are looked down upon even by the Tullies, whose own family, though going back to the time of Andal invasions, were until the conquest little more than lesser lords who were granted a small portion of land by the invading Andals of house Vance for bending their knees. Targaryens, on the other hand, were even offered the hand of the only daughter and heir of a house as old and presigious as the Durrandons despite only being "in" Westeros for about a hundred years, living on the very fringes of Westeros on a small island.  It was only after that Aegon proposed the hand of his bastard brother, that Argilac the Arrogant had taken offense, he was fine with marrying his daughter and therefore his dynasty and leaving the entire kingdom, to some lordling that living on a barren rock off the coast that had absolutely no effect in Westerosi politics.  Why?

 

P.S. Walder Frey is a filthy scumbag but it's not much relevant to the topic.

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To put it simply, the Freys never had dragons.

But for what it’s worth, I think the disrespect shown to House Frey was always meant to be more about their character rather than their lineage. Walder’s father was involved in the Blackfyre conspiracy, after all, so that would cast a lot of shade towards him. And Walder would have grown up in that shade, turning more and more resentful. Plus he was too cautious to pick a side in Robert’s Rebellion, probably because of what happened to his dad. This also backfired on him though, so it’s just been a steadily increasing sense of injured pride which made him turn on Robb Stark as a harsh message to the world that House Frey isn’t to be trifled with. And of course, that will also backfire.

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4 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Well the Targaryens had dragons, and had many accomplishments as a royal family, and for their arrogance most of them still acted with dignity, courtesy and charisma.

They aren't like the members of a certain family who is known for being majorly made of two-faced, rude, entitled, opportunistic and slimy assholes.

As a royal family? But I'm asking specifically prior to them being royals.

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4 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I would be interested to drill down into the evidence for disdain of house Frey and whether a lot of it is in fact just disdain for Walder - who has been around for so long that it amounts to the same thing now, but maybe doesn't predate him by as long as he assumes.

Most of Walder's descendants are just like him or even worse in terms of personality though. 

Though the treatment that actually decent and honorable Freys such as Stevron, Olyvar and Perwyn get in comparison to the majority of their kin is telling about how much the contempt for House Frey is the direct result of Walder and most of his children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren's personalities, attitude and actions. 

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7 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Most of Walder's descendants are just like him or even worse in terms of personality though. 

Though the treatment that actually decent and honorable Freys such as Stevron, Olyvar and Perwyn get in comparison to the majority of their kin is telling about how much the contempt for House Frey is the direct result of Walder and most of his children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren's personalities, attitude and actions. 

Oh yeah, very little that has happened since Walder took over the Twins will have gone to improve the Freys' reputation. My question is whether Walder's inferiority complex has more to do with an actual general dislike of house Frey dating back generations, or whether it's actually mostly his fault for making the house obnoxious.

It does seem like the Freys were considered a somewhat lower-tier house in terms of prestige even before Walder (which is to be expected, perhaps, being neither an ancient house, nor a great house, nor a formerly royal house) but not necessarily to indicate that they were viewed as worse than another house of that tier.

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7 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Oh yeah, very little that has happened since Walder took over the Twins will have gone to improve the Freys' reputation. My question is whether Walder's inferiority complex has more to do with an actual general dislike of house Frey dating back generations, or whether it's actually mostly his fault for making the house obnoxious.

It does seem like the Freys were considered a somewhat lower-tier house in terms of prestige even before Walder (which is to be expected, perhaps, being neither an ancient house, nor a great house, nor a formerly royal house) but not necessarily to indicate that they were viewed as worse than another house of that tier.

There are odd snippets you’d not really note if you didn’t already have a negative impression of them, for example Forrest ‘the Fool’ Frey, so named and infamous for proposing a marriage with Rhaenyra…which is interesting, as we know a great many lesser houses did likewise without earning an epithet…and the stray mention of Freys showing up late to Battle X or War Y or w/e. 

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43 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

It does seem like the Freys were considered a somewhat lower-tier house in terms of prestige even before Walder (which is to be expected, perhaps, being neither an ancient house, nor a great house, nor a formerly royal house) but not necessarily to indicate that they were viewed as worse than another house of that tier.

No, not worse off than another house of that tier, at least until Walder, it is the way of Westeros, but question still stands that how come that Targaryens were not and were even seen worthy of a marriage by Durrandon.

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4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No, not worse off than another house of that tier, at least until Walder, it is the way of Westeros, but question still stands that how come that Targaryens were not and were even seen worthy of a marriage by Durrandon.

The obvious reason why Argilac wanted a marriage with Aegon was to get access to his dragons, so that he could use them against (one presumes) the Hoares and other enemies. And Dragonstone was not an inconsiderable fiefdom, assuming it had roughly the same array of vassals before the Conquest that it still does, so Aegon himself was a powerful peer - not as prestigious as a Gardener or a Lannister, one assumes, but still worthy of being treated with respect.

But that's only Aegon himself. Argilac was clearly deeply insulted in being offered Orys's hand, whereas under some later kings many lords would probably still welcome Targ bastards as in-laws.

The reverence that people have for the Targs in later centuries is surely at least in part down to the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, which kicks divine right up a notch. According to the official position of the Faith of the Seven, the Targaryens are Better Than You, by nature as well as station. Of course this doctrine didn't apply under either Aenys or Maegor - two kings who spent most if not the entirety of their reigns facing down rebellions of one sort or another.

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As well as the dragons that only they had, the Targaryens were the last living dragonlords of Valyria, the empire that ruled all of Essos up until the Doom only one century before. One presumes that a Targaryen match would have been deemed good by Westerosi royalty, even without their dragons.

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Targaryen ride dragon and carry  ancient noble blood of Valyria. 

Freys didnt establish as house by chivarly and such but by collecting tolls. Butterwells were also called cow thiefs that rose high and were looked down upon.

But I dont see anyone looking down on  Frey all that much its just Walder Frey's paranoia. Walder is able to marry his brood so well. If they were looked down upon they would just marry Frey daughters for good dowry and not send their daughters from far and wide to be grand daughter in law from Walder's 7th son and such.

 

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24 minutes ago, Lord of Oldstones said:

Targaryen ride dragon and carry  ancient noble blood of Valyria. 

Freys didnt establish as house by chivarly and such but by collecting tolls. 

 

Collecting tolls or worse is literally how every noble house ever got that way. Feudalism is almost literally a society organized around the process of extortion.

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4 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

The obvious reason why Argilac wanted a marriage with Aegon was to get access to his dragons, so that he could use them against (one presumes) the Hoares and other enemies.

He does exactly the same with marrying to Aegon's brother.

4 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

And Dragonstone was not an inconsiderable fiefdom, assuming it had roughly the same array of vassals before the Conquest that it still does, so Aegon himself was a powerful peer - not as prestigious as a Gardener or a Lannister, one assumes, but still worthy of being treated with respect.

 

Massey's, Bar Emmons etc that were on the Hook was not their vassals. Aegon sets outwith barely above a thousand men and that is with these houses of Massey's hook included.  Aegon was not a peer of him. He could have been a relatively powerful vassal, emphasis on the word relatively, relative to smaller vassal houses.

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18 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It was only after that Aegon proposed the hand of his bastard brother, that Argilac the Arrogant had taken offense, he was fine with marrying his daughter and therefore his dynasty and leaving the entire kingdom, to some lordling that living on a barren rock off the coast that had absolutely no effect in Westerosi politics.  Why?

I like Argillac but I think he messed up a bit here. Princess Argella was far too good for that inbred impotent Aegon fellow. Targaryens boast they have 'the blood of the dragon'. All that means is that they are inbred eugenicists. Durrandons on the other hand have the blood of actual gods. So yeah, he should have tried for a better match. I think a Stark would have been good. Starks were Kings of Winter unlike inbred Aegon the Cuckold who ruled as mere lord of some rock.

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OTOH, you have a family that produces people who look like Rhaenys, Rhaenyra, Visenya, Rhaegar, Dany, Daena, Rhaena etc.

On the other, you have a family that looks like weasels.  And led by an old perv who dribbles into his food whenever he encounters a pretty woman.

 

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8 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Oh yeah, very little that has happened since Walder took over the Twins will have gone to improve the Freys' reputation. My question is whether Walder's inferiority complex has more to do with an actual general dislike of house Frey dating back generations, or whether it's actually mostly his fault for making the house obnoxious.

It does seem like the Freys were considered a somewhat lower-tier house in terms of prestige even before Walder (which is to be expected, perhaps, being neither an ancient house, nor a great house, nor a formerly royal house) but not necessarily to indicate that they were viewed as worse than another house of that tier.

I think that it's mostly his fault, from what we saw of him in Duncan and Egg's adventures he was already a shit as a child, and while the Freys were known as opportunistic before Walder took it to an extra degree of entitlement, sliminess and petiness. And that's not counting how he chose to have so many marriages and descendants, and didn't bother raising them properly aside from Stevron.

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The Targaryens are the protagonists family in this story.  All of the extra materials outside of the five novels are about the Targaryens.  They conquered Westeros and saved the people from the barbaric boneheads who used to rule them.  The Starks and the Hoares were boneheads. 

The Freys were snubbed by Hoster but they were generally a respected family.  Hoster is dirt napping in the Bone Yard while the Freys are enjoying their victory over another bonehead young wolf. 

 

 

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