Why are Targaryens Revered While Freys are Looked Down Upon?

[Craving Peaches]

33 minutes ago, Roswell said:

The Targaryens are the protagonists family in this story.  All of the extra materials outside of the five novels are about the Targaryens.  They conquered Westeros and saved the people from the barbaric boneheads who used to rule them. 

Nice propaganda.

[Aldarion]

19 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Freys are a house of around six centuries and are seen as young upstarts and are looked down upon, while Targaryens, the house of sister loving worms if you have trouble remembering them among so many houses of importance, are quite revered. One may argue that it is the result of less than three hundred years of turbulent misrule, one that has been full of civil wars, over Westeros, a misrule that did not even extend to two centuries in some places, but it has nothing to do with it as it was the case even before their violent war of unjust conquest. Freys are looked down upon even by the Tullies, whose own family, though going back to the time of Andal invasions, were until the conquest little more than lesser lords who were granted a small portion of land by the invading Andals of house Vance for bending their knees. Targaryens, on the other hand, were even offered the hand of the only daughter and heir of a house as old and presigious as the Durrandons despite only being "in" Westeros for about a hundred years, living on the very fringes of Westeros on a small island.  It was only after that Aegon proposed the hand of his bastard brother, that Argilac the Arrogant had taken offense, he was fine with marrying his daughter and therefore his dynasty and leaving the entire kingdom, to some lordling that living on a barren rock off the coast that had absolutely no effect in Westerosi politics.  Why?

 

P.S. Walder Frey is a filthy scumbag but it's not much relevant to the topic.

First, Targaryens are not upstarts in the grand scheme of things. They had been dragonlords for centuries if not millenia before they first stepped into Westeros.

Second, Freys are opportunists. There is a reason why Walder Frey is called "late". They do not honor their feudal obligations, and are widely seen as unreliable. Why, exactly, wouldn't everybody despise them?

Third, Tullies are looked down upon. Their rule over Riverlands is not exactly secure, much like Tyrells - another family raised up by Targaryens - have to constantly look over their shoulder.

Fourth, Freys never had dragons.

[Annara Snow]

9 hours ago, James Arryn said:

There are odd snippets you’d not really note if you didn’t already have a negative impression of them, for example Forrest ‘the Fool’ Frey, so named and infamous for proposing a marriage with Rhaenyra…which is interesting, as we know a great many lesser houses did likewise without earning an epithet…and the stray mention of Freys showing up late to Battle X or War Y or w/e. 

This is funny when you consider that 1) so many men proposed marriage to Rhaenyra, as you mention - and at least Forrest didn't turn against her for rejecting her, unlike (probably) some (cough cough Criston Cole)... and 2) most of the Great Houses turned out late for the Dance of the Dragons and weren't eager to get involved until most of the dragons are dead. Cregan Stark is somehow considered a great Rhaenyra loyalist by some when he waited for an eternity to march south, only when everything was almost over. (And the Blackwoods, for instance, getting involved early doesn't do them credit since they just did it to attack the Brackens.) 

Though it seems that, once the dragons were gone, nobles weren't as reluctant to send armies to Targ civil wars, so not getting immediately involved in a Blackfyre rebellion may have been seen as shameful.

As for the Freys being seen as kind of upstarts, as Olenna pointed out the same can be said of the Tyrells, but they usually don't get the same treatment.

[Annara Snow]

11 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

First, Targaryens are not upstarts in the grand scheme of things. They had been dragonlords for centuries if not millenia before they first stepped into Westeros.

Second, Freys are opportunists. There is a reason why Walder Frey is called "late". They do not honor their feudal obligations, and are widely seen as unreliable. Why, exactly, wouldn't everybody despise them?

Third, Tullies are looked down upon. Their rule over Riverlands is not exactly secure, much like Tyrells - another family raised up by Targaryens - have to constantly look over their shoulder.

Fourth, Freys never had dragons.

The other arguments are true (the dragons especially, to be honest), but this one is funny. Sorry, but how many nobles of Westeros are not opportunists? If Walder Frey came late to Robert's Rebellion, what about Tywin Lannister, who came late AND brutally sacked a city that's already surrendered AND had two small children (including an infant) and their mother murdered? (Not to mention the way Walder is definitely not the only one who was desperate to marry his children into powerful families and have his daughter be queen and his grandkids heirs to a throne - that's what Tywin Lannister and Mace Tyrell are all about.)

But Tywin gets a different treatment because he is way more rich and powerful. As simply as that. Oh, and he also looks better and cooler than Walder and can keep appearances (like not wanting to be mocked for having a young wife or being known for questionable sexual behavior). That's all.

The Tyrells get an even better image - the Lannisters commend fear  but the Tyrells are popular because they can put up a lovely image,  even though they're as opportunistic as they come.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Annara Snow said:

Sorry, but how many nobles of Westeros are not opportunists?

I mean the Targaryens are opportunists. They took advantage of the fact that the Kingdoms were divided and having near-unbeatable dragons to conquer everyone.

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Roswell said:

The Targaryens are the protagonists family in this story.  All of the extra materials outside of the five novels are about the Targaryens.  They conquered Westeros and saved the people from the barbaric boneheads who used to rule them.  The Starks and the Hoares were boneheads. 

 

 

 

1) The Targaryens are not the protagonists of A Song of Ice and Fire. Dany is, but most of the other protagonists are from other families, particularly the Starks - the closest to a "protagonist family" the series has.

2) First off, inaccurate, Dunk and Egg is about a commoner and a Targ prince - but a Targ prince who is living as a commoner at the time. Fire & Blood is about the Targaryens, and TWOIAF is about everybody and the whole world. And secondly, Fire & Blood is about the Targaryens - because they RULED Westeros for 300 years, not because they were good and perfect and wonderful.

3) To install themselves as the new, more powerful barbaric boneheads? This is plan Targaryen era propaganda. They were conquerors who came to a continent not their own, countries nor their own, and use the power equivalent of three nuclear bombs, while no one else had any, to bully everyone into submission (or kill them). (Except for Dorne, where they failed, so they went impotently burning the entire country.) It's absolutely hilarious when people rail against later Dance-era Targaryens for committing war crimes with their dragons in a civil war against each other (at least those on the side those fans don't happen to be for) and in the same breath worship the three Conquerors for doing the same thing in wars against people of countries they were conquering. Aegon the Conqueror and Visenya would surely be among the top contenders for people with the biggest body count in the Westerosi history.

[kissdbyfire]

18 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

I would be interested to drill down into the evidence for disdain of house Frey and whether a lot of it is in fact just disdain for Walder - who has been around for so long that it amounts to the same thing now, but maybe doesn't predate him by as long as he assumes.

Hard to tell how far back their reputation goes, but certainly at least as far back as Walder Frey’s father.

The Mystery Knight

“Only when the animals had been fed and watered and hobbled for the night did Dunk accept the wineskin that Ser Maynard offered him. "Even sour wine is better than none," said Kyle the Cat. "We'll drink finer vintages at Whitewalls. Lord Butterwell is said to have the best wines north of the Arbor. He was once the King's Hand, as his father's father was before him, and he is said to be a pious man besides, and very rich."

 

  "His wealth is all from cows," said Maynard Plumm. "He ought to take a swollen udder for his arms. These Butterwells have milk running in their veins, and the Freys are no better. This will be a marriage of cattle thieves and toll collectors, one lot of coin clinkers joining with another.”

And this one just for fun…

The Mystery Knight

“The Hand awaits," commanded Roland Crakehall.

  Dunk stepped past him, into the presence of Lord Brynden Rivers, bastard, sorcerer, and Hand of the King.

  Egg stood before him, freshly bathed and garbed in princely raiment, as would befit a nephew of the king. Nearby, Lord Frey was seated in a camp chair with a cup of wine to hand and his hideous little heir squirming in his lap. Lord Butterwell was there as well ... on his knees, pale-faced and shaking.

  ”

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

20 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

The other arguments are true (the dragons especially, to be honest), but this one is funny. Sorry, but how many nobles of Westeros are not opportunists? If Walder Frey came late to Robert's Rebellion, what about Tywin Lannister, who came late AND brutally sacked a city that's already surrendered AND had two small children (including an infant) and their mother murdered? (Not to mention the way Walder is definitely not the only one who was desperate to marry his children into powerful families and have his daughter be queen and his grandkids heirs to a throne - that's what Tywin Lannister and Mace Tyrell are all about.)

But Tywin gets a different treatment because he is way more rich and powerful. As simply as that. Oh, and he also looks better and cooler than Walder and can keep appearances (like not wanting to be mocked for having a young wife or being known for questionable sexual behavior). That's all.

The Tyrells get an even better image - the Lannisters commend fear  but the Tyrells are popular because they can put up a lovely image,  even though they're as opportunistic as they come.

Another factor about Tywin that Walder Frey totally lacks is fear. There are many in Westeros who hate or absolutely despise Tywin, but the man is so feared that most of them can't express or act on it as they want, and to his credit Tywin does have this natural charisma and stern authority that makes him able of easily imposing his authority and will on most people he comes across. 

And while they are opportunistic and upstart the Lannisters and the Tyrells don't have this weasely and slimy attitude and at least pretend to fullfill their duties and maintain a dignified attitude while the Freys, save for the good ones and Lothar, can't stop themselves from acting as petty entitled and slimy jerkasses and don't even bother to do their duties as vassals unless they get a huge reward of it or don't want to be on the losing side of a war.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

First, Targaryens are not upstarts in the grand scheme of things. They had been dragonlords for centuries if not millenia before they first stepped into Westeros.

Targaryens are upstarts in Westeros and what is worse is they had been slavers for millennia before, a practice Westerosi don’t look kindly upon.

[Aldarion]

1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

The other arguments are true (the dragons especially, to be honest), but this one is funny. Sorry, but how many nobles of Westeros are not opportunists? If Walder Frey came late to Robert's Rebellion, what about Tywin Lannister, who came late AND brutally sacked a city that's already surrendered AND had two small children (including an infant) and their mother murdered? (Not to mention the way Walder is definitely not the only one who was desperate to marry his children into powerful families and have his daughter be queen and his grandkids heirs to a throne - that's what Tywin Lannister and Mace Tyrell are all about.)

But Tywin gets a different treatment because he is way more rich and powerful. As simply as that. Oh, and he also looks better and cooler than Walder and can keep appearances (like not wanting to be mocked for having a young wife or being known for questionable sexual behavior). That's all.

The Tyrells get an even better image - the Lannisters commend fear  but the Tyrells are popular because they can put up a lovely image,  even though they're as opportunistic as they come.

We are talking about perception here. Yes, other nobles will use the opportunity if they get one, but they are not as blatant about it as Freys.

I missed the part where anybody respects Tywin? People fear him, but that is because he is both powerful and brutal. But if it weren't for that, I'm not sure he would command more respect than Freys.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Nice propaganda.

I can almost feel the racial superiority that shagging your sibling for thousands of years brings.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

I guess the "boneheads" took the throne for a while and broke the kingdom.  The Baratheons and their allies are indeed "boneheads"

The Freys are criticized for arriving late to the battle.  I think the insults started after Robert's Rebellion.  That failure, intended or accidental, will soon be forgotten.  It's been less than 20 years.  Another 10 and no one will remember it. 

A Song of Ice and Fire has a hierarchy.  The Targaryens are at the top because they deserve it.  They were the rulers of Old Valyria.  They have dragons, beautiful hair, high intelligence, and lovely eyes.  They survived the Doom and built a kingdom for themselves.  People admire that. 

[Aldarion]

13 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Targaryens are upstarts in Westeros and what is worse is they had been slavers for millennia before, a practice Westerosi don’t look kindly upon.

Difference is that they literally created the Seven Kingdoms as they are. They didn't take an old title, they created new one.

If you want to compare Freys to others, other "upstarts" would be Tyrells.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I guess the "boneheads" took the throne for a while and broke the kingdom.  The Baratheons and their allies are indeed "boneheads"

The Freys are criticized for arriving late to the battle.  I think the insults started after Robert's Rebellion.  That failure, intended or accidental, will soon be forgotten.  It's been less than 20 years.  Another 10 and no one will remember it. 

A Song of Ice and Fire has a hierarchy.  The Targaryens are at the top because they deserve it I said so even though I don't understand the text. They were the rulers of Old Valyria.  They have dragons, beautiful hair, high intelligence, and lovely eyes.  They survived the Doom and built a kingdom for themselves.  People admire that. 

FTFY, you're welcome! 

[Annara Snow]

12 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I guess the "boneheads" took the throne for a while and broke the kingdom.  The Baratheons and their allies are indeed "boneheads"

The Freys are criticized for arriving late to the battle.  I think the insults started after Robert's Rebellion.  That failure, intended or accidental, will soon be forgotten.  It's been less than 20 years.  Another 10 and no one will remember it. 

A Song of Ice and Fire has a hierarchy.  The Targaryens are at the top because they deserve it.  They were the rulers of Old Valyria.  They have dragons, beautiful hair, high intelligence, and lovely eyes.  They survived the Doom and built a kingdom for themselves.  People admire that. 

 You wrote this as satire, right?

Also, "certain hair color and eye color is the most beautiful and makes people who have it racially superior" sounds like a certain ideology that shall not be named.

[Corvo the Crow]

11 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Difference is that they literally created the Seven Kingdoms as they are. They didn't take an old title, they created new one.

If you want to compare Freys to others, other "upstarts" would be Tyrells.

Except this thread isn’t about the post conquest Targaryens as the example of Durrandon marriage suggests. Perhaps shouldn’t have said revered but was too tired to think of a better word.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Targaryens and Freys are not the same. Compare the Freys with other powerful second house within their kingdom. An equivalent House to the Freys are the Boltons.  
 

The Targaryens are almost gods. They have flaws like the gods of the Greeks but that still puts them above the Great Houses.  People respect them because they have held power OVER all the Houses for so long.  Freys hold power over only minor houses.  

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I guess the "boneheads" took the throne for a while and broke the kingdom.  The Baratheons and their allies are indeed "boneheads"

The Freys are criticized for arriving late to the battle.  I think the insults started after Robert's Rebellion.  That failure, intended or accidental, will soon be forgotten.  It's been less than 20 years.  Another 10 and no one will remember it. 

A Song of Ice and Fire has a hierarchy.  The Targaryens are at the top because they deserve it.  They were the rulers of Old Valyria.  They have dragons, beautiful hair, high intelligence, and lovely eyes.  They survived the Doom and built a kingdom for themselves.  People admire that. 

As usual, you’re making silly claims based on nothing other than either your unfamiliarity w/ the text or your inability to comprehend what you’ve read. 
 

TWoIaF, The Reign of the Dragons - The Conquest

“At its apex Valyria was the greatest city in the known world, the center of civilization. Within its shining walls, twoscore rival houses vied for power and glory in court and council, rising and falling in an endless, subtle, oft-savage struggle for dominance. The Targaryens were far from the most powerful of the dragonlords, and their rivals saw their flight to Dragonstone as an act of surrender, as cowardice. But Lord Aenar’s maiden daughter Daenys, known forever afterward as Daenys the Dreamer, had foreseen the destruction of Valyria by fire. And when the Doom came twelve years later, the Targaryens were the only dragonlords to survive.”

 

[Lord of Oldstones]

12 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Collecting tolls or worse is literally how every noble house ever got that way. Feudalism is almost literally a society organized around the process of extortion.

Not in world of westeros. 

You have to either carve up a Kingdom or be granted for some lands for a great service to Kings. If you started as cheese lord and collector you get mocked. 

 

 

[Alester Florent]

I think it's worth distinguishing between different types of snobbery: on the one hand, class snobbery, against arriviste nouveau riche types with no pedigree, and on the other hand, nativist snobbery, in which foreigners are looked down on for being foreign.

Snobbery against the Freys is of the first type; any snobbery towards the Targs would be of the second type. And in Westeros where you have a bunch of different cultures knocking about but also interacting quite closely, the second type is probably easier for the subjects to overcome than the first. The Targs were not at the top of the tree in Valyria, but they're still an old noble house going back to time immemorial even if they've arrived in Westeros relatively recently, and they can shed their "foreignness" by adopting native customs, which they rapidly do following the Conquest.

To a snobbish Westerosi noble on the eve of the Conquest, there are going to be a few different "tiers" of nobility in terms of prestige; I would say, roughly:

1) The ancient royal houses, at the head of their kingdoms, and going back to time immemorial - the Gardeners, Lannisters, Durrandons, Starks and Arryns

2) Houses that are currently sovereign, i.e. of de facto royal rank, but have only acquired this status within recorded history, and/or don't belong to the dominant Westerosi culture groups - the Martells, Hoares, Targaryens, and possibly the Velaryons

3) Houses that date back to time immemorial and used to have royal status, but have now been subjugated by another house - the Boltons, Dustins, Brackens, Blackwoods, Royces, Manwoodys, Yronwoods, Hightowers, Greyjoys etc.

4) Houses of great antiquity that never had royal status - the Corbrays, Westerlings, Marbrands, Plumms, Vyprens, etc.

5) Houses that have emerged within reliably recorded history and have been vassals the whole time - we don't actually know of too many of these for sure (although most noble houses presumably fall into this category) since when noble houses are detailed they're usually in groups 3 or 4. In fact the Freys may be the only house we know of for certain in this group who predate the Conquest.

N.B. by "time immemorial" or "great antiquity" I really mean "to around the time of, or before, the Andal invasion", since reliable records seem to have begun some time after that.

Now, there will be some variation in this and obviously also various internal rankings within each group, to account for antiquity, religion, supposed ethnicity, etc. In some cases, groups 2 and 3 might be switched. We also know that houses down to the third rank are considered suitable for royal marriages and sometimes, post-conquest, it even reaches the fourth (Maegor, Elaena Targaryen).

It's also worth noting that Westerosi history is stretched, in this respect. The Freys are considered a young house at 600 years, which IRL would be very old. The longest-ruling royal houses in Europe, the Capetians and the Bagrationi, made it to about a thousand years, there are a couple noble houses of similar age but not many, and worldwide only the Imperial House of Japan claims significantly greater antiquity (over 2500 years, but there is surely some legend there).

In Westeros, on the other hand, we know of dozens of houses that date back to "antiquity", which is at least 2000 years before the present. So a 600-year-old house is much more parvenu by Westerosi standards than it would be in reality.

In any case, the Targs, while not in the first tier of houses prior to the Conquest, are comfortably clear of the Freys in the prestige rankings.