Why are Targaryens Revered While Freys are Looked Down Upon?

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

In Westeros, on the other hand, we know of dozens of houses that date back to "antiquity", which is at least 2000 years before the present. So a 600-year-old house is much more parvenu by Westerosi standards than it would be in reality.

 

This too is straight out of Dune. There are plenty of fantasy with old houses but few, if any, go back as old as 10.000 years and even fewer (if there are any at all) have so many houses goinhat old.

[Alester Florent]

23 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This too is straight out of Dune. There are plenty of fantasy with old houses but few, if any, go back as old as 10.000 years and even fewer (if there are any at all) have so many houses goinhat old.

I'm of the school that believes the timeline isn't as long as the histories suggest: by my reckoning, the Long Night was probably no longer ago than about 5,000 BC, and possibly quite a bit less, with the Andals' having arrived about 2,000 BC.

5,000 years is still a long time, but it's more or less equivalent to the "historical" period of our own world, so it's not totally crazy. Obviously we don't have ruling families from ancient Sumer still kicking around that we know of, though.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, Alester Florent said:

I'm of the school that believes the timeline isn't as long as the histories suggest: by my reckoning, the Long Night was probably no longer ago than about 5,000 BC, and possibly quite a bit less, with the Andals' having arrived about 2,000 BC.

5,000 years is still a long time, but it's more or less equivalent to the "historical" period of our own world, so it's not totally crazy. Obviously we don't have ruling families from ancient Sumer still kicking around that we know of, though.

I tried once or twice for a few houses, but can't claim of actually having bothered to try and see how far back the timeline goes, but 5000 years could be problematic and we have reason to believe beyond the Westerosi that it goes further back than 5000 years. Ghis was being raised around the time of the Long Night or it's end, Azor Ahai legend itself dates back at least 5000 years.

[Alester Florent]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

I tried once or twice for a few houses, but can't claim of actually having bothered to try and see how far back the timeline goes, but 5000 years could be problematic and we have reason to believe beyond the Westerosi that it goes further back than 5000 years. Ghis was being raised around the time of the Long Night or it's end, Azor Ahai legend itself dates back at least 5000 years.

I've done two threads on the subject analysing the material given to us in The World of Ice and Fire: one for the Andal invasion, and one (many years later!) for the Long Night. Obviously you're free to disagree with the conclusions I reach there because there's still a lot of speculation, but based on the precise dates we're given and reasonable interpretations and extrapolations from the surrounding text, I think the longer-count timelines leave us with an awful lot of discrepancies and unexplained dead space.

On the other hand, if we simply ignore the largest, vaguest numbers, treating them as IC hyperbole (which we also have IC reason to doubt!), the timeline seems to fit together much more satisfactorily.

[James Arryn]

8 hours ago, Lord of Oldstones said:

Not in world of westeros. 

You have to either carve up a Kingdom or be granted for some lands for a great service to Kings. If you started as cheese lord and collector you get mocked. 

 

 

Really not sure how you think we’re describing different things. Just break down how (and why) the phrases you cite above come to pass in practice. Spoiler: it’s about the power to kill, hurt of threaten to do either to less powerful other people. That’s literally it. If a king ‘grants’ you land…how did that king acquire it? And how is his (or now your) ownership of it enforced over all the people who live there?

[Aldarion]

45 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This too is straight out of Dune. There are plenty of fantasy with old houses but few, if any, go back as old as 10.000 years and even fewer (if there are any at all) have so many houses goinhat old.

Not just Dune. Archetypical case is, as usual for fantasy, probably Tolkien: royal dynasty of Numenor survived for 3 287 years, that of Gondor for 2 171 year. And House of Elros survived for well over 6 550 years (from Elros' coronation in SA 32 to Aragorn's death, plus unknown number of years afterwards), though they had quite a long interregnum from Earnur's death in TA 2050 until Aragorn's coronation in TA 3019.

 

 

[James Arryn]

17 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Not just Dune. Archetypical case is, as usual for fantasy, probably Tolkien: royal dynasty of Numenor survived for 3 287 years, that of Gondor for 2 171 year. And House of Elros survived for well over 6 550 years (from Elros' coronation in SA 32 to Aragorn's death, plus unknown number of years afterwards), though they had quite a long interregnum from Earnur's death in TA 2050 until Aragorn's coronation in TA 3019.

 

 

Aren’t those a little more than human, though? Like don’t Aragorn’s kin live to be almost 200 years old if they die naturally? 6550 chunked up into chunks of around 180 years is a LOT less change over time than 10 000+++++ divided up into medieval life spans of, what, 40? 45? It’s exponentially more and they lack the supernatural characteristics that separate LotR dynasties from normal folk. 

[Aldarion]

1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

Aren’t those a little more than human, though? Like don’t Aragorn’s kin live to be almost 200 years old if they die naturally? 

Yes, and admittedly, Numenor itself was isolated from larger world so there weren't many opportunities for external shakeups. Kinda like Japan, which has a ruling dynasty over 2600 years old.

Which would suggest that either Westerosi dynasties are liars, or else Westerosi history had been unusually calm with regards to royal warfare.

Still, I feel that is probably where the whole "extremely long lasting dynasties" thing comes from in much of fantasy (other case is Dune with immortal God Emperor, which gets a repeat episode in Warhammer 40k).

[Corvo the Crow]

11 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Not just Dune. Archetypical case is, as usual for fantasy, probably Tolkien: royal dynasty of Numenor survived for 3 287 years, that of Gondor for 2 171 year. And House of Elros survived for well over 6 550 years (from Elros' coronation in SA 32 to Aragorn's death, plus unknown number of years afterwards), though they had quite a long interregnum from Earnur's death in TA 2050 until Aragorn's coronation in TA 3019.

 

Yes I mentioned that plenty of others have old houses, Tolkien immediately came to my mind while saying that, but as you have added here, few houses of his stretch back several thousand years and even fewer stretch as far back as those in ASOIAF where there is talk of 8000 years and 10000 years. Also note not all those are humans.  Dune on the other hand has many of it's great houses go back 10.000 years of more. The year at the start of the series is 10190 After Guild and Corrino Empire has been around for near a century Before Guild, with many great houses of the Landsraad dating back to that time.

[Darth Sidious]

Snobbery, looking down on somebody, and other negative feelings are usually directed at those below. Less-affluent, less-powerful, people. The Freys have less history.  A Tully is higher up the ladder. They look down on the Freys. The Targaryens are on top of the ladder. 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Snobbery, looking down on somebody, and other negative feelings are usually directed at those below. Less-affluent, less-powerful, people. The Freys have less history.  A Tully is higher up the ladder. They look down on the Freys. The Targaryens are on top of the ladder. 

Targaryens raping helpless peasants on a barren rock preconquest really isn’t top of the ladder. Top of the disgust ladder maybe if you add that they fuck their sisters when not raping newly wed peasants

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

The Targaryens are on top of the ladder. 

The ladder of inbreeding and arrogance.

[SeanF]

On 3/4/2023 at 12:43 AM, James Arryn said:

Really not sure how you think we’re describing different things. Just break down how (and why) the phrases you cite above come to pass in practice. Spoiler: it’s about the power to kill, hurt of threaten to do either to less powerful other people. That’s literally it. If a king ‘grants’ you land…how did that king acquire it? And how is his (or now your) ownership of it enforced over all the people who live there?

As you say, it’s like the mafia.  The overlord extorts from you, but protects you from rivals who would like to extort from you (you and your fellow vassals are his source of income, after all).

In turn, you extort from your own vassals, in return for your protection.

Injuring a man wearing a lord’s livery is like injuring that lord, and that lord will avenge that injury.