Ned's Girl

[Curled Finger]

Reading through all the current Tower of Joy topics it is apparent that Ned Stark gives up very little of his experiences involving Howland Reed.  That is to say the Tower of Joy and Harrenhal.  We do have a few fleeting thoughts in front of Lyanna’s tomb in the crypts with Robert and waking from a fever dream.  All we have on Harrenhal is Bran telling Meera his father looked sad recounting the tale.  We get a second hand account of Howland Reed’s take on Harrenhal.  Ned seems to simply shut his memories down.  We are allowed glimpses of incomplete pieces without real context he allows himself to recall.  Ned Stark is so invested in the lies he’s built to protect Jon Snow, perhaps Lyanna’s memory, perhaps others, that he will not even permit himself complete memories of these times which are no doubt inextricably entwined. 

Sansa has certainly been through the wringer since leaving Winterfell for the bright lights of Kings Landing then The Vale.  Her lessons have been of cruelty and loss and endless fright.  She survives this to end up in the saving grace of frickin Little Finger, which can only lead to worse cruelty and loss and endless fright of different colors.  The twist here is that Sansa has donned a new identity which has seemingly led to a shedding of Sansa Stark, at least in her thoughts in the Alayne gift chapter.  Alyane even thinks of frickin Little Finger as “father” in this chapter.  Ugh! 

While Robb and Jon may have picked up Ned’s innate sense of honor, Arya has become a great mummer and Bran is a good little liar, it is Sansa who embodies her father’s ability to subvert himself, his truth and his honor for the love of family. 

[James Arryn]

I’m probably misunderstanding, but you’re saying Sansa is becoming Alyane somehow for her family, or just that that’s Ned’s motivation while Sansa is doing it to protect herself?

[EggBlue]

of all of Ned's children, Sansa is the most like him in my opinion. it's not difficult to look at Ned Stark and think he might just have been as naive and idealistic as Sansa way before the war. unlike their respective siblings , possessing "wolf blood" , Sansa and Ned are way calmer and have a more straightforward sense of honor than say Jon, Lyanna or Brandon(s) . shutting down bad memories that you wrote is so spot on . makes me wonder if Ned had an un-kiss moment as well . it's worth mentioning that Ned and Sansa are even similar in their relationship with their siblings . where Sansa was more detached from the rest of the Stark kids in mannerism and activities , Ned was literally a world away from his siblings and one would assume consequently never had as strong a bond with his siblings that they did with each other. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Reading through all the current Tower of Joy topics it is apparent that Ned Stark gives up very little of his experiences involving Howland Reed.  That is to say the Tower of Joy and Harrenhal.  We do have a few fleeting thoughts in front of Lyanna’s tomb in the crypts with Robert and waking from a fever dream.  All we have on Harrenhal is Bran telling Meera his father looked sad recounting the tale.  We get a second hand account of Howland Reed’s take on Harrenhal.  Ned seems to simply shut his memories down.  We are allowed glimpses of incomplete pieces without real context he allows himself to recall.  Ned Stark is so invested in the lies he’s built to protect Jon Snow, perhaps Lyanna’s memory, perhaps others, that he will not even permit himself complete memories of these times which are no doubt inextricably entwined. 

Totally! Like I'm pretty sure he hooked up with Ashara. At least got to third. We hear zilch. Cat was told for like 3 minutes Brandon would be hers, and he's never left her psych. There's definitely some deep burials in Ned's mind

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Sansa has certainly been through the wringer since leaving Winterfell for the bright lights of Kings Landing then The Vale.  Her lessons have been of cruelty and loss and endless fright.  She survives this to end up in the saving grace of frickin Little Finger, which can only lead to worse cruelty and loss and endless fright of different colors.  The twist here is that Sansa has donned a new identity which has seemingly led to a shedding of Sansa Stark, at least in her thoughts in the Alayne gift chapter.  Alyane even thinks of frickin Little Finger as “father” in this chapter.  Ugh! 

Yea! But she also knows she's not Alayne so where as Ned is just lost in his mind Sansa at least knows she chasing the white rabbit. She definitely also seems to lose her a way a bit though as she starts to rationalize that Petyr and Littlefinger arent actually the same person either. Which is crazy.

So like while Arya says she's over that life, even if she doesn't mean it, she says and thinks it. Alayne knows I think that is temporary, the call for Winterfell (although strong in Arya) is a real pull for Sansa. Like the godswood, which of course is reminiscent of Petyr. Or is it Dontos who meets his demise by LF. It's a mind fuck to say the least.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

it is Sansa who embodies her father’s ability to subvert himself,

(She's such a great literary character!) I'd even say she goes into overdrive, although foots on the pedal the whole time. In agot she "doesn't remember" which felt like a cop out, in acok she just fabricated this whole sexual assault/romantic peck depending on your take and now in asos +, she's a Stone. 

Cersei and Petyr thrived on their lies, but they also taught Sansa everything they knew

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

her father’s ability to subvert himself, his truth and his honor for the love of family. 

Alright take it easy, save it for the baseless Ned appreciation thread 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

I’m probably misunderstanding, but you’re saying Sansa is becoming Alyane somehow for her family, or just that that’s Ned’s motivation while Sansa is doing it to protect herself?

I'm saying that they could both swallow themselves to protect their interests for the love of themselves indirectly as Starks and for the honor of their names.  Yah, that definitely should have closed more strongly.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

of all of Ned's children, Sansa is the most like him in my opinion. it's not difficult to look at Ned Stark and think he might just have been as naive and idealistic as Sansa way before the war. unlike their respective siblings , possessing "wolf blood" , Sansa and Ned are way calmer and have a more straightforward sense of honor than say Jon, Lyanna or Brandon(s) . shutting down bad memories that you wrote is so spot on . makes me wonder if Ned had an un-kiss moment as well . it's worth mentioning that Ned and Sansa are even similar in their relationship with their siblings . where Sansa was more detached from the rest of the Stark kids in mannerism and activities , Ned was literally a world away from his siblings and one would assume consequently never had as strong a bond with his siblings that they did with each other. 

You've thought about this.   It really just barely hit me with all this Ned talk.  It's always how much Cat's daughter Sansa is.  Thanks so much for adding your similarities, it's something to ponder.  I think I'm falling in love with martin all over again.  Choke me 

[EggBlue]

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You've thought about this.   It really just barely hit me with all this Ned talk.  It's always how much Cat's daughter Sansa is.  Thanks so much for adding your similarities, it's something to ponder.  I think I'm falling in love with martin all over again.  Choke me 

add to that the obvious : like Ned, Sansa will probably come to her own in the Vale of Arryn . if not alongside Robert Baratheon's daughter being as close as a sister but with Myranda Royce who might be as different from Sansa as Young Robert may have been from Ned. 

[Corvo the Crow]

19 hours ago, EggBlue said:

of all of Ned's children, Sansa is the most like him in my opinion. it's not difficult to look at Ned Stark and think he might just have been as naive and idealistic as Sansa way before the war. unlike their respective siblings , possessing "wolf blood" , Sansa and Ned are way calmer and have a more straightforward sense of honor than say Jon, Lyanna or Brandon(s) . shutting down bad memories that you wrote is so spot on . makes me wonder if Ned had an un-kiss moment as well . it's worth mentioning that Ned and Sansa are even similar in their relationship with their siblings . where Sansa was more detached from the rest of the Stark kids in mannerism and activities , Ned was literally a world away from his siblings and one would assume consequently never had as strong a bond with his siblings that they did with each other. 

I would've disagreed but then I remembered Jon isn't Ned's, so I agree.

[Corvo the Crow]

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Alyane even thinks of frickin Little Finger as “father” in this chapter.  Ugh! 

 

Can you blame her?

 

 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Can you blame her?

 

You know, Corvo, over in the topic that got locked someone did this to me, posted something that I just had to think about before replying.  It's not a bad question, really.  No, I can't blame Sansa at all.  I just find it very Nedish that she even trains her mind to think in terms of Alayne.  She's playing a game and I suppose Ned was too, in his own way.   You have to feed yourself the lie and live it.  Ned lived it for so long, the remainder of his life.  Frickin Little Finger says he will announce Sansa's true identity yet she still cloaks herself in Alayne.  It's very strange.  I get it to a certain extent, when I forget what Little Finger told her and had her give him a kiss.  

[MissM]

On 3/2/2023 at 5:31 PM, Curled Finger said:

While Robb and Jon may have picked up Ned’s innate sense of honor, Arya has become a great mummer and Bran is a good little liar, it is Sansa who embodies her father’s ability to subvert himself, his truth and his honor for the love of family. 

Just a mummer?

All of the different identities she has had to lose herself in... just reduced to a mummer?

For example, Arya as Cat of the Canals cultivates a whole new life for herself. A father and two sisters she has bonded with for over half a year. Arya is doing all of this, suffering alone on the streets of Braavos begging as Blind Beth so she can be strong enough to never be afraid again, to avenge her family and to never have to lose anyone she loves because she will be able to protect them.

I would argue there is no one that can "subvert" who they are more than Arya. This is one of her greatest strengths (helped her survive Harrenhal in particular) and one of her greatest challenges... if she loses too much of herself. 

 

 

On 3/2/2023 at 6:59 PM, Hugorfonics said:

So like while Arya says she's over that life, even if she doesn't mean it, she says and thinks it. Alayne knows I think that is temporary, the call for Winterfell (although strong in Arya) is a real pull for Sansa. Like the godswood, which of course is reminiscent of Petyr. 

This is what she says and thinks:

~*~

Quote

 

"A lie. I know you. You are that blind beggar girl."

"Beth." She had known a Beth once, back at Winterfell when she was Arya Stark. Maybe that was why she'd picked the name. Or maybe it was just because it went so well with blind.

 

~*~

Needle is everything she holds dear in her heart and she kept it knowing she would need it some day:

Quote

She stood on the end of the dock, pale and goosefleshed and shivering in the fog. In her hand, Needle seemed to whisper to her. Stick them with the pointy end, it said, and, don't tell Sansa! Mikken's mark was on the blade. It's just a sword. If she needed a sword, there were a hundred under the temple. Needle was too small to be a proper sword, it was hardly more than a toy. She'd been a stupid little girl when Jon had it made for her. "It's just a sword," she said, aloud this time . . .

. . . but it wasn't.

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.

Polliver had stolen the sword from her when the Mountain's men took her captive, but when she and the Hound walked into the inn at the crossroads, there it was. The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father's gods, the old gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can't have this.

~*~

Quote

"You play at being a servant, but in your heart you are a lord's daughter. You have taken other names, but you wore them as lightly as you might wear a gown. Under them was always Arya."

~*~

Quote

The star of home. Arya stood at the prow, one hand resting on the gilded figurehead, a maiden with a bowl of fruit. For half a heartbeat she let herself pretend that it was her home ahead.

~*~

Quote

 

"Who are you?" he would ask her every day.

"No one," she would answer, she who had been Arya of House Stark, Arya Underfoot, Arya Horseface. She had been Arry and Weasel too, and Squab and Salty, Nan the cupbearer, a grey mouse, a sheep, the ghost of Harrenhal . . . but not for true, not in her heart of hearts. In there she was Arya of Winterfell, the daughter of Lord Eddard Stark and Lady Catelyn, who had once had brothers named Robb and Bran and Rickon, a sister named Sansa, a direwolf called Nymeria, a half brother named Jon Snow. In there she was someone . . . but that was not the answer that he wanted. - A Feast for Crows - Arya II

 

She is subverting who she is, saying what he wants to hear so she can stay and learn how to be stronger. But The Faceless Men have always seen through that lie. She is very connected to Winterfell and her desire/intention to return. There are a million more examples from her pre-Braavos chapters too.

A moment that was most revealing and so insightful was when Arya smelled the Candles that are meant to evoke what most comforts you:  

Quote

"If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

Winterfell, she might have said. I smell snow and smoke and pine needles. I smell the stables. I smell Hodor laughing, and Jon and Robb battling in the yard, and Sansa singing about some stupid lady fair. I smell the crypts where the stone kings sit, I smell hot bread baking, I smell the godswood. I smell my wolf, I smell her fur, almost as if she were still beside me. "I don't smell anything," she said, to see what he would say.

"You lie," he said, "but you may keep your secrets if you wish, Arya of House Stark." He only called her that when she displeased him. "You know that you may leave this place. You are not one of us, not yet. You may go home anytime you wish." - A Feast for Crows - Arya II

She is not like Ned in a lot of ways primarily his naivete and willingness to trust the wrong people. Like her aunt Lyanna, Arya was always a much better judge of character. But what Arya does have of Ned is a deep loving bond, all his lessons in ruling reserved for her brothers because she was always there close to her father - always underfoot. "Ned's precious little girl" is one of Arya's descriptors. 

[Curled Finger]

20 minutes ago, MissM said:

Just a mummer?

All of the different identities she has had to lose herself in... just reduced to a mummer?

She is subverting who she is, saying what he wants to hear so she can stay and learn how to be stronger. But The Faceless Men have always seen through that lie. She is very connected to Winterfell and her desire/intention to return. There are a million more examples from her pre-Braavos chapters too.

She is not like Ned in a lot of ways primarily his naivete and willingness to trust the wrong people. Like her aunt Lyanna, Arya was always a much better judge of character. But what Arya does have of Ned is a deep loving bond, all his lessons in ruling reserved for her brothers because she was always there close to her father - always underfoot. "Ned's precious little girl" is one of Arya's descriptors. 

While this is all true, the connection to Ned isn't as you say, as clear to Ned as Sansa's in the light I am noticing.  Arya is far more than a mummer and I was listing characteristics that lightly fell in line with the topic being Sansa and Ned's connection.  Just as Bran is far more than a liar and Robb and Jon are both far more than honorable.  

This topic was my first exploration of these lies that Sansa and Ned live with and become.  Arya has more than her share of these situations though they are short lived and she never actually transforms in her mind.  She never buys any of it and stays exactly who she is.  No One be damned.  It isn't about Arya not being Ned's girl.  That would be a disservice to the beauty of the character of Arya Stark and Ned, too.  

I look forward to reading your topics on Arya.  Your passion rings true and clear.  I'm tired of Arya being portrayed as a psycho all the time.  

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, MissM said:

I would argue there is no one that can "subvert" who they are more than Arya.

Theon? But I see what your saying.

Quote

"How do you know me?" he said, frowning suspiciously. "The flayed man . . . who are you, some serving boy to Lord Leech?"

For a moment she did not know how to answer. She'd had so many names. Had she only dreamed Arya Stark?

(That scene absolutely crushes me!)

But that scene I think is the hardest one, the rest Arya still remembers who she is. 

So I agree that just an actor might be a bit low and her identity crisis and acceptance into her house and world is truly doing a number on her, I'm still not sure if it's as fucked as her dad or even her sister.

Like your quotes show, she's bursting to get out. Arya's kinda having have to smother her subconscious all the time, and that's in conscious, asleep? She's straight Nymeria

If I could just be all metaphysical with it, I'd say Sansa is lost and is kinda in acceptance that she is losing herself. While Arya is keeping herself alive, kinda battling herself like Two Face or something. While Eddard I think has lost that fight many years ago.

1 hour ago, MissM said:

. But what Arya does have of Ned is a deep loving bond, all his lessons in ruling reserved for her brothers because she was always there close to her father - always underfoot.

Lol I don't think that's what underfoot meant, but I love it!

Yea so with the near infinite of reasons I don't like Eddard, his lessons and conversations with this one specific child is definitely not one. Ned did good by her (because shes reminiscent of Lyanna maybe?)

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like your quotes show, she's bursting to get out. Arya's kinda having have to smother her subconscious all the time, and that's in conscious, asleep? She's straight Nymeria

If I could just be all metaphysical with it, I'd say Sansa is lost and is kinda in acceptance that she is losing herself. While Arya is keeping herself alive, kinda battling herself like Two Face or something. While Eddard I think has lost that fight many years ago.

Lol I don't think that's what underfoot meant, but I love it!

Yea so with the near infinite of reasons I don't like Eddard, his lessons and conversations with this one specific child is definitely not one. Ned did good by her (because shes reminiscent of Lyanna maybe?)

Or he was a good dad.  You don't have to be good at a lot of things to be a good parent.  Some people are lucky that way.

Curiously the mention of Two Face reminded me of Bran rolling up on The Liddle who was very clear:  Don't tell me who you are.  I know who you are and DON"T TELL ME.  

[Hugorfonics]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Or he was a good dad.  You don't have to be good at a lot of things to be a good parent.  Some people are lucky that way.

Was he a good parent to Arya? I guess. He has great moments with her, which he doesn't with any other kid, but still no. Keeping her in KL when shit was already popping off just turns me completely off in Neds parenting department.

(I mean he tries with her. The lady fiasco destroyed Arya and not every parent would allow her to continue with her needle work, let alone hiring an instructor. But after the fact, when Arya's standing on one leg over the stairs like some kind of good decision maker, Ned asks her if she's ready for that stay at home mom and wife life. Arya looks at Ned like he's out of his mind and Ned looks back at her the same. So if Arya is just Lyanna mini, I would think Ned would understand that not every daughter is Sansa. But, this is the lord of subverting so, yea.

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Curiously the mention of Two Face reminded me of Bran rolling up on The Liddle who was very clear:  Don't tell me who you are.  I know who you are and DON"T TELL ME.  

Lol yea exactly. It's me Bram. Bramdom the brokem...

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Was he a good parent to Arya? I guess. He has great moments with her, which he doesn't with any other kid, but still no. Keeping her in KL when shit was already popping off just turns me completely off in Neds parenting department.

(I mean he tries with her. The lady fiasco destroyed Arya and not every parent would allow her to continue with her needle work, let alone hiring an instructor. But after the fact, when Arya's standing on one leg over the stairs like some kind of good decision maker, Ned asks her if she's ready for that stay at home mom and wife life. Arya looks at Ned like he's out of his mind and Ned looks back at her the same. So if Arya is just Lyanna mini, I would think Ned would understand that not every daughter is Sansa. But, this is the lord of subverting so, yea.

 

In Ned's defense, he was a hell of a lot better than a lot of dads we see.  I just keep seeing Robert and Randyll Tarly.  Ick.  I'm not actually sure what they considered a good dad back in the day.  

Who knows what went through Ned's mind with Arya?  Particularly in conjunction with Lyanna?  Was he deep enough to have those thoughts beyond looks?  If he did, was he only thinking ahead of potential rebellions behind his younger daughter?  Hard to tell with this guy, you know? 

[Hugorfonics]

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

In Ned's defense, he was a hell of a lot better than a lot of dads we see.  I just keep seeing Robert and Randyll Tarly.  Ick.  I'm not actually sure what they considered a good dad back in the day.  

Yea for sure, I think we can all be glad we're not Crasters. It's a sad state of affairs when the best father might be Walder. (not the best grandpa) I guess Stannis ain't terrible either (yet).

Doran ruined his marriage when he sent his son away. He's a chip and she didn't see it like that, but he's a princely sort so I guess he was? For sure tho, it's as foreign of a concept to us as it was for Mrs. Doran, so it's hard to judge? Maybe? But either way, I don't like seeing Sansa as an ante on the poker table, with Arya just hanging out next to her. Like, it's Joffrey. And his mom is Cersei. Is this where you want your kids? For context, Quentyn died horribly.

To clarify it's not the arranged marriages that upsets me, I get things work like that like I get why Ned decepated some guy on brans 7th birthday or whatever but I don't get why he threw his daughters into the lions den after he heard them roaring when Lady died. And he totally did give encouragement to Arya which was cool but he didn't really to Sansa which I never really got. (Also Im not thrilled that he left Bran like that, like dude? Cat I get, they're at war someone tried to kill em but Ned was just on his way to the office)

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Who knows what went through Ned's mind with Arya?  Particularly in conjunction with Lyanna?  Was he deep enough to have those thoughts beyond looks?

Yea! Looks were secondary. Deeps a great word.

Quote

Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

If he can connect the fate of Lyanna to the future of Arya, idk.

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

If he did, was he only thinking ahead of potential rebellions behind his younger daughter?  Hard to tell with this guy, you know? 

Yea exactly! This dude buries everything.  Fucking dogs, or wolves or whatever.

So like it's cool he said she could keep her sword, she was pretty miserable and presents are fun but I think Lyanna is lots of the reason why too, probably cuz he misses her and maybe cuz she coulda used one. 

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So like it's cool he said she could keep her sword, she was pretty miserable and presents are fun but I think Lyanna is lots of the reason why too, probably cuz he misses her and maybe cuz she coulda used one. 

That's a good point, maybe Ned was in his own weird way, taking better care of Arya by letting her keep Needle because Lyanna could have used one.  By golly, you've given me a symbolism lesson I can use!  

[Hugorfonics]

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's a good point, maybe Ned was in his own weird way, taking better care of Arya by letting her keep Needle because Lyanna could have used one

Yea maybe. Or maybe Ned thought she coulda used one. (It's hard to tell what really happened or what Ned thought happened, but I think the general view by the fans is she left with Rhaegar on her own accord and was not held captive at the toj? But if that's really what happened, Ned still might disagree 

12 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

By golly, you've given me a symbolism lesson I can use!  

What do you mean?

[Corvo the Crow]

29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea maybe. Or maybe Ned thought she coulda used one. (It's hard to tell what really happened or what Ned thought happened, but I think the general view by the fans is she left with Rhaegar on her own accord and was not held captive at the toj? But if that's really what happened, Ned still might disagree 

42 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Yeah but how would that even happen? Rhaegar fell upon her party, we are told. What happened to those with her? At the very least she would have her father's people with her and they would not have let their lords daughter go and they would certainly not give her up without a fight. Rhaegar is guilty of more crimes than obvious to the eye and definitely seems like he needed a trip to the old chopping block.